Firefly Space : Company and Development General Thread

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/firefly_space/status/1130611161022574592

Listening to this engine preparing to run made us think about fielding a  Top Fuel dragster with our Lightning engine. The latest test at 110%  thrust generated over 100,000 horsepower. Imagine this baby jumping off  the starting line! #Firefly #MakingSpaceForEveryone

[russianhalo117]

I don't know if anyone has put this milestone schedule in here yet. Looks like the next thing we should see from Firefly is a HIF.

They already have horizontal processing facilities from ULA. Only have to ITL and mate the stack at the pad(s) (one for Alpha and one for Beta).

Are they planning to modify the Delta II heritage umbilical and mobile service towers, or build new ones from scratch?  Or are they planning to use a transporter-erector-launcher like Rocket Lab and SpaceX?

Graphics and documentation indicate the latter. The existing Thor and Delta hardware will be imploded and removed because fixed stacking is a thing of he past with these newer companies. Only the launch mount (to be replaced later) and flame bucket will be kept albeit modified.

[PM3]

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1067433130460467202

This "orbit transfer vehicle" = Firefly Kickstage is now also shown with a 5-year satellite bus option like Rocket Lab's Photon: https://firefly.com/launch-otv/

But so far only renderings, no specs and not mentiond in the Payload User's Guide.

... and here is the Firefly OTV Payload User's Guide:

https://firefly.com/wp-content/themes/firefly_aerospace/files/OTV_PUG.pdf

Xenon Hall thrusters
Two variants, one for deployment to LEO, one for "extended range".

max. 800 kg payload
600 kg to GEO
500 kg to lunar orbit
(all with Alpha from Cape Canaveral)

No information about development schedule / availability.

[TrevorMonty]

This OTV makes for lot interesting low cost missions.
Space solar power station for moon. At 20% efficiency for laser to surface solar array, 10kw OTV would deliver upto 2kw to surface assets while acting as comms relay.   Same mission would deliver significant payload to orbit even lander. SSPS allows rovers and landers to survive lunar night, in case of  rovers operate in permanently shadowed areas.

Cargo resupply to Gateway.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Slip to 2020 for first launch now confirmed:

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1136635950610755586

Les Kovacs of Firefly: first launch of Alpha in 1st quarter of 2020, an “aggressive estimate.” Larger Beta vehicle flying in late 2021-2022 timeframe. #ISDC2019

[Chris Bergin]

Will give this a standalone thread as one day we'll have a section for them!

FEATURE ARTICLE: Firefly prepares for maiden flight with critical testing, new additions -

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2019/06/firefly-prepares-maiden-flight-critical-testing/

- By Tyler Gray.

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1136638943951302656

[PM3]

That schedule on the Firefly website is very optimistic, see gongora's last post above. They started testing the (standalone) first stage engine in March 2019, and will not start preparing the launch pad before June/July.

IMHO the first Alpha launch is NET Q3 2020. And they will need additional funding until then. Should find some launch customers to support that.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1136635950610755586

[john smith 19]

Did they drop the idea of aerospike finally? And methane IIRC?

And pressure-fed engines. Basically everything that made the original Firefly Alpha really interesting to me. It seems pretty standard now. Well, a tap-off cycle with RP-1 is unusual. Has anyone tried that before?

My guys tried making it work for a client but went back to a conventional GG.  I have no doubt it can be done but am not sure it is worth the effort, especially when you need to throttle.  My experience is that you want to decouple engine components from one another to keep development cost and risk under control, not tie them together more tightly.

This is innovative. AFAIK gas tap-off has only ever been done with LH2 so extending it to LOX/RP1 is a fairly serious shifting of the SoA. You should get better T/W (no GG) but without all the issues around staged combustion (or fewer of them at least).  Aside from the control issues (tight coupling of turbine drive with thrust chamber throttling) is what happens if the fuel rich turbine gas flow hits a colder part of the engine and starts condensing into a thick tarry deposit?

Likewise using trunions for the booster engines (rather than 2d gimbals) hasn't been seen since the Gammas on the Black Arrow ELV, which could only rotate radially.   

The upside is you don't need flexible hoses, which tend to have significant losses. The down side is you can't do roll control.

Or can you? Historically Black Arrow engines could rotate toward or away from the central axis. What if some of them had their roll axis at other angles to the center of the vehicle? Obviously the real time maths would be much more complex but then again GNC computers are 200-400x faster than the ones that ran the Saturn V.

The rocket geek in me is thinking "That's pretty cool" but the business side of me is wondering "Is this innovation for innovations sake, or does it deliver serious benefits that give Firefly a practical competitive advantage?

I hope it does.

BTW regarding the plug nozzle design. People expect them to steer by differential throttling the individual chambers but AFAIK the ones that have actually been built (like the flight weight one Rocketdyne built for the USAFRL and supervised by the Dr Huezel of "Huezel & Hwang") had gimbal points on them.

Despite 7 decades  of orbital rocketry AFAIK no rocket has been steered solely by differential throttling of its engines, despite the benefits of eliminating the complex and heavy TVC system in favor fixing the engines to the airframe and relying on a set of fast acting valves.

[su27k]

Interesting and fairly long interview with Tom Markusic by Texas Monthly: https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/leader-next-generation-rocketry-companies/

[ZChris13]

Despite 7 decades  of orbital rocketry AFAIK no rocket has been steered solely by differential throttling of its engines, despite the benefits of eliminating the complex and heavy TVC system in favor fixing the engines to the airframe and relying on a set of fast acting valves.

I believe that needs to be extended to successful rockets, the N1, may it rest in peace, attempted to use differential throttling according to the popular lore.

[ParabolicSnark]

Interesting and fairly long interview with Tom Markusic by Texas Monthly: https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/leader-next-generation-rocketry-companies/

TM: So we’ll basically be getting persistent, high-resolution images of the whole planet? 

MARKUSIC: It depends on what you want and how frequently you want it. And what region you’re looking at. I mean, we can talk about real-time stuff—say, following your girlfriend, watching where her car is driving from space.

TM: That’s creepy.

MARKUSIC: I just mean that it’s possible.

This response just boggles me. That sounds like a response from someone who isn't involved in the industry trying to come up with reasons why satellite constellations are a terrible idea. Yet, Markusic, a person trying to sell that industry, thinks that's a good thing to bring up? That's the first place his head goes?

I wish I could say I was surprised, but after having worked for him, it sounds par for the course.

[jstrotha0975]

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — Firefly Aerospace announced July 9 it plans to work with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), the manufacturer of the Beresheet lunar lander, to develop its own lunar landers for NASA.

Firefly and IAI said they signed intellectual property and engineering support agreements giving Firefly access to the technology IAI developed for the Beresheet lander. Firefly will use that technology to manufacture a version of that lander and offer it to NASA through the agency’s Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) program.

“This agreement with IAI will allow Firefly to build on our momentum and expand our lunar capabilities by creating a U.S.-built version of IAI’s historic lunar lander,” Tom Markusic, chief executive of Firefly, said in a statement announcing the deal. “Having access to flight proven lunar lander technology and the expertise of IAI engineers makes Firefly well placed to gain a foothold in the cislunar market.”

https://spacenews.com/firefly-to-partner-with-iai-on-lunar-lander/

[sunworshipper]

“Having access to flight proven lunar lander technology and the expertise of IAI engineers makes Firefly well placed to gain a foothold in the cislunar market.”

Proven?

[JEF_300]

“Having access to flight proven lunar lander technology and the expertise of IAI engineers makes Firefly well placed to gain a foothold in the cislunar market.”

Proven?

Well, it is flight proven, if not landing proven

[ringsider]

“Having access to flight proven lunar lander technology and the expertise of IAI engineers makes Firefly well placed to gain a foothold in the cislunar market.”

Proven?

Well, it is flight proven, if not landing proven

It landed, but hard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beresheet#Failed_landing

[JEF_300]

https://twitter.com/Firefly_Space/status/1148955074976051200

Said Link:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethhowell1/2019/07/09/firefly-will-use-beresheet-lander-tech-to-land-on-the-moon/#6443c0227bcb

[TG Revv]

Firefly getting ready to refurbish the old Delta II launch stand at VAFB SLC-2W:

https://twitter.com/firefly_space/status/1153664174586597376?s=21

[intelati]

Firefly getting ready to refurbish the old Delta II launch stand at VAFB SLC-2W:

[Davidthefat]

Brad Schneider (Formerly Rocket Lab Executive VP) is now at Firefly as Chief Revenue Officer.4

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/firefly-aerospace-welcomes-brad-schneider-as-chief-revenue-officer-300889676.html?tc=eml_cleartime

[ringsider]

Wow, that is actually a big move for Firefly. Schneider has been at the heart of US Rocket Lab forever. I wonder what triggered that move? Something pre-Logan?