PLF jettison taken into account?Also it's unclear to me how you derived your starting mass of 28868.
This estimate is quite a bit higher than that derived from comparing performance of different mass missions (where the estimate was about 4500 kg). I'm not at all sure where the difference comes from. Both methods seem plausible in their own way...
And what was the inclination at sc sep?
Quote from: LouScheffer on 06/20/2017 12:24 amThis estimate is quite a bit higher than that derived from comparing performance of different mass missions (where the estimate was about 4500 kg). I'm not at all sure where the difference comes from. Both methods seem plausible in their own way...There will be unburned residuals and unusable residuals, even in a burn to depletion. There is also the unaccounted mass of the spacecraft adapter, which is going to be a few hundred kg. The 4.5 tonne number is for the Block 5 variant performance, so this stage was likely heavier. The numbers shown on the SpaceX webcast may not have been accurate. Etc.
Something is not correct here.You can't use Newton's second law for a variable mass system.Also you lack information on the potential energy at beginning and end of constant acceleration burn.Second stage and spacecraft are orbiting bodies, and raising (or lowering) the orbit, or part of it, requires (or releases) energy.
Quote from: Jim on 06/20/2017 01:31 pmAnd what was the inclination at sc sep?This one reportedly ended up at 381 x 69,839 km x 24.5 deg
Quote from: LouScheffer on 06/20/2017 03:20 pm The only assumption is the ISP of 348, which SpaceX has explicitly stated. That could be it. SpaceX has provided numbers, but they've turned out to be for Block 5. What happens to the calculations when a lower ISP is assumed?
The only assumption is the ISP of 348, which SpaceX has explicitly stated.
Quote from: edkyle99 on 06/20/2017 01:27 pmQuote from: LouScheffer on 06/20/2017 12:24 amThis estimate is quite a bit higher than that derived from comparing performance of different mass missions (where the estimate was about 4500 kg). I'm not at all sure where the difference comes from. Both methods seem plausible in their own way...There will be unburned residuals and unusable residuals, even in a burn to depletion. There is also the unaccounted mass of the spacecraft adapter, which is going to be a few hundred kg. The 4.5 tonne number is for the Block 5 variant performance, so this stage was likely heavier. The numbers shown on the SpaceX webcast may not have been accurate. Etc.Looking at both estimates, I think this one is more reliable.The old estimate (4500 kg) relied on the difference between LEO (22.8t claimed) and GTO (8.3t claimed) capabilities. This has more assumptions (the LEO and GTO orbits are not specified) and seems internally inconsistent (from the current performance, you would expect a rocket that can put 8.3t into GTO to put more than 22.8t into LEO). Plus the 22.8 to LEO would require a new super-heavy PAF (the current "heavy" PAF is only good to 10.8t). This muddies the calculation further.For the new estimate, the physics is very clean. The only assumption is the ISP of 348, which SpaceX has explicitly stated. The SpaceX telemetry numbers seem plausible - they show 26419 km/hr before the GTO burn, and 36096 after. That's a delta V of 2688 m/s, close to what you would expect for the SSTO obtained (though an exact calculation is hard since SpaceX does not specify their parking orbit, in particular the inclination). Also the calculations are internally consistent with a simpler model that uses only the rocket equation. The beginning and ending masses above (28868/13558 kg) give a mass ratio of 2.129. They do not model the thrust ramp-up and tail-off. So if we take from the webcast the velocity at 27:02 and 28:02 (beginning and end of full acceleration) we get 26733 km/hr and 36046 km/hr. This gives a delta V of 2586 m/s, and an almost identical mass ratio of 2.134 at an ISP of 348.So although uncertainties remain, as Ed stated above, I think the empty mass is closer to 7000kg than the previous estimate of 4500 kg. However, this is not the final version - this version looks capable of putting 21.4t in LEO (LEO mass above - estimated stage mass), and about 6.7t to a minimal GTO (extrapolated from above). Those are 6% and 20% less than the SpaceX website claims, so more changes are to be expected.
There must be some assumption that you've made which is off somewhere.
If you initial fit was off a bit, and the max acceleration peaked at 5 G rather than 4.8 G, would that make much of a difference to your results?
What's the duration of the burn?
The stage final mass may be quite sensitive to the throttle setting, but then so is the corresponding initial propellant load -- and you have some better constraints on the initial propellant load, right?
[...] For what it's worth, here is the output from my Inmarsat-5 sim. The orbit at SECO1 is about 160 x 590 kms, and mass is 25.5mT. At SECO2, mass is 11.6mT. A 4° plane change from 28.5 to 24.5° would require an additional 540m/s, for a burn to depletion S2 total of 9.9mT. Subtracting 6.1mT for the satellite, gives 3.8mT S2 dry mass, a touch lower than I would have expected.
The plane change plus the GTO injection sum as vectors, not as scalars, and they are at right angles. From this orbit, straight GTO injection needs about 2400 m/s. Adding 540 m/s at right angles means a total burn of sqrt(2400^2 + 540^2) = 2460 m/s. So adding the plane changes needs only an additional 60 m/s. That should give a more realistic second stage mass.
[...]
The 934 kN thrust has been listed since 2015 when v1.2 specs were first posted. I rather doubt they were looking forward to Block 5 way back then.Does the data fit better if this was not in fact a burn to depletion, and there was 2,000 kg (or any arbitrary number) of propellant left at the end of the second burn?
Quote from: envy887 on 06/22/2017 12:52 pmThe 934 kN thrust has been listed since 2015 when v1.2 specs were first posted. I rather doubt they were looking forward to Block 5 way back then.Does the data fit better if this was not in fact a burn to depletion, and there was 2,000 kg (or any arbitrary number) of propellant left at the end of the second burn?One would think that there would be reserve propellant in the second stage to make up for potential shortfalls in first stage performance, although maybe the flyback and landing propellant constitutes all the reserve.
We have seen that the second stage throttles down before. See the attachments to my post here:Quote from: Semmel on 08/26/2016 08:59 pm[...]PS: Sorry, still no time to do programming at home and advance the script.@edit: added the plot for convenience.
Quote from: Semmel on 06/22/2017 12:55 pmWe have seen that the second stage throttles down before. See the attachments to my post here:Quote from: Semmel on 08/26/2016 08:59 pm[...]PS: Sorry, still no time to do programming at home and advance the script.@edit: added the plot for convenience.The M1D throttle change is pretty small (perhaps 4-5%). Perhaps it's a mixture ratio switch. In Apollo, they ran the second stage with a "maximum thrust" mixture ratio for the first part of the burn (where gravity losses are most important), then switched to a lower-thrust, maximum ISP mixture ratio for the rest of the burn. ( Described here.) This would generate a profile just like that shown in the plot.
Quote from: LouScheffer on 06/23/2017 12:42 amQuote from: Semmel on 06/22/2017 12:55 pmWe have seen that the second stage throttles down before. See the attachments to my post here:Quote from: Semmel on 08/26/2016 08:59 pm[...]PS: Sorry, still no time to do programming at home and advance the script.@edit: added the plot for convenience.The M1D throttle change is pretty small (perhaps 4-5%). Perhaps it's a mixture ratio switch. In Apollo, they ran the second stage with a "maximum thrust" mixture ratio for the first part of the burn (where gravity losses are most important), then switched to a lower-thrust, maximum ISP mixture ratio for the rest of the burn. ( Described here.) This would generate a profile just like that shown in the plot.That also answers the question of why they would throttle there rather than later in the burn. ISP is generally highest near maximum throttle so ISTM they wouldn't throttle until there is an acceleration limit, which is nowhere near that point in the mission.