Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 10  (Read 1150673 times)

Offline RotoSequence

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https://physicsworld.com/a/physicists-beat-lorentz-reciprocity-microwave-transmission/

"Physicists beat Lorentz reciprocity for microwave transmission"

Quote
...Andrea Alù and colleagues at the University of Texas at Austin and City University of New York have shown that two nonmagnetic isolators can be combined to produce a device that transmits a signal almost perfectly in one direction, but has near-zero transmission in the opposite direction.
« Last Edit: 02/27/2018 10:53 PM by RotoSequence »

Offline RotoSequence

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https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25791

"Possible interaction between baryons and dark-matter particles revealed by the first stars"

Quote from: Abstract
The cosmic radio-frequency spectrum is expected to show a strong absorption signal corresponding to the 21-centimetre-wavelength transition of atomic hydrogen around redshift 20, which arises from Lyman-α radiation from some of the earliest stars. By observing this 21-centimetre signal—either its sky-averaged spectrum or maps of its fluctuations, obtained using radio interferometers—we can obtain information about cosmic dawn, the era when the first astrophysical sources of light were formed. The recent detection of the global 21-centimetre spectrum reveals a stronger absorption than the maximum predicted by existing models, at a confidence level of 3.8 standard deviations. Here we report that this absorption can be explained by the combination of radiation from the first stars and excess cooling of the cosmic gas induced by its interaction with dark matter. Our analysis indicates that the spatial fluctuations of the 21-centimetre signal at cosmic dawn could be an order of magnitude larger than previously expected and that the dark-matter particle is no heavier than several proton masses, well below the commonly predicted mass of weakly interacting massive particles. Our analysis also confirms that dark matter is highly non-relativistic and at least moderately cold, and primordial velocities predicted by models of warm dark matter are potentially detectable. These results indicate that 21-centimetre cosmology can be used as a dark-matter probe.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2018 12:14 AM by RotoSequence »

Online flux_capacitor

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Travis "Doc" Taylor (short biography attached) has published a paper in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society where he proposes to test out McCulloch's quantised inertia / MiHsC / horizon mechanics with a setup based on a high Q asymmetric Fabry-Pérot laser resonator (also called an etalon). According to Taylor and if the theory is correct, such a device "would produce very large propulsive forces". So I presume, much higher forces than what has been obtained with EmDrives up to now!

• T. S. Taylor (2017). "Propulsive Forces using High-Q Aysmmetric High Energy Laser Resonators". JBIS. 70 (7): 238–243.
http://www.jbis.org.uk/paper.php?p=2017.70.238
(paywall, only first page available for free below)


I must say to Monomorphic: Wow, good catch man.
Indeed Monomorphic concluded two years ago, back in January 2016 on Reddit:
Quote from: Monomorphic
Basically the emdrive is a microwave fabry-perot interferometer.
That was quoted on NSF by Chrochne in thread #6. To be complete such etalons have been cited in theses threads two times in 2015, first about the Eagleworks "pillbox" experiment on spacetime distortions (Notsosureofit in thread #2) and about evanescent waves (SteveD in thread #4).

Online flux_capacitor

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I wonder if Travis Taylor and Mike McCulloch are aware that Jim Woodward and Heidi Fearn at CSUF are preparing with Gary Hudson (SSI) a new workshop on advanced propulsion, holding at Estes Park, CO, 10–14 September 2018.

It is a bit far for McCulloch but I think that everyone there would be interested to hear about that proposal, including Martin Tajmar who precisely sets up such experiments, and Heidi Fearn whose specialty is Quantum Optics. I will ask them.

Offline Notsosureofit

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I would like to see Taylor's complete expression as there is no mention of mode in the Nomenclature.  Perhaps someone has access to the complete paper?

Offline Monomorphic

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Pertinent image from the paper. The gain medium is Neodymium-doped yttrium orthovanadate crystal. The cavity is 5cm in length, with two highly reflecting mirrors at each end.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2018 09:20 PM by Monomorphic »

Online flux_capacitor

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This seems a bit too good to be true. I can't believe such a small simple device with so limited power could generate so much force (look at the predicted propulsive force given for a 1 cm diameter small end, and a 100 W input power, according to MiHsC).

Multijoule-terawatt-class Nd:glass lasers have been extensively tested back in the mid '70s notably at the LLNL (with Cyclops and Janus, then Argus, Shiva, Nova…). Those setups involved high-precision manufacturing and positioning of every elements. One little dust at such high power and glasses would explode (it happened). If an asymmetry in diameter between two semi-reflecting mirrors produced so much anomalous forces, wouldn't it have been noticed in the various experiments ran accross many decades?

OR as the predicted anomalous force intensity is logarithmic according to Taylor's diagrams, and the Nd:glass so precisely symmetrically manufactured for the high power experiments, any anomalous force never really showed up?

Is someone on these boards aware of any laser experiment involving asymmetric AND convex/concave mirrors done in the past, like Taylor's proposal?

Whatever, I hope this experiment will be done, it seems very accessible for any serious lab like TU Dresden. Martin Tajmar already expressed interest.

« Last Edit: 03/04/2018 05:01 PM by flux_capacitor »

Offline fvlad

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Jamie,
I recommend that you pay attention to the words DusanC

 DusanC Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 10
« Reply #2189 on: 10/16/2017 06:43 PM »
«Can you try doing the measurement at 3-4AM. Once we tried to measure displacement of large machining center and we measured surrounding noise from the traffic more than 100m away (not audio, but oscillations traveling through the ground) even as machine + foundation weighted more than 20t. At 3-4AM we managed to make good measurements».

My studies using on a torsion balance showed that there is a periodicity of noise intensity, a minimum of noise is observed from 3 to 9 hours, and a maximum of noise from 15 to 21 hours in local solar time.

Another option for increasing signal-to-noise ratio is signal filtering.
dustinthewind Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 10
« Reply #2205 on: 10/17/2017 01:35 AM »
«The first I will suggest is a low frequency filter». «Proper choice of your capacitor inductor components will allow you to filter out the low frequency signal of about 60 seconds».

I propose to significantly increase the signal-to-noise ratio by using an adaptive filter based on the Fourier transform. Very convincingly looks the placement on one graph of two signals, which changing from time: one from the work of EM Drive and the second, cut by a filter.
For example, let's take the published signal powered_test03.jpg. I show two results of using the adaptive filter.
First result:
02_03_2017__14_25_26PM_The subtracted signal 36 Hz end 72 Hz.jpg
powered_test03_2 The subtracted signal 36 s end 72 s.xlsx
Setting 1 (cut out of the harmonic signal) or 0 on the second line, against each harmonic frequency, we can observe the changes in the resulting signal on the graph. Below the upper graph are given the original graphs and the spectrum of the signal with the location of its excised part of the spectrum.

The subtracted signal with a period less than 81 s and with a period from 43 to 58 s. In fact, only a useful signal is subtracted, but only one noise remains.
powered_test03_2_Average 16 period less than 81 s.jpg
powered_test03_2_Average 16 period less than 81 s.xlsx

The signal-to-noise ratio using an adaptive filter can be significantly increased if the duration of the EM Drive operation and the duration of digitized noise are increased by tens of times.

Vladimir
«Experience is what allows us to repeat our mistakes only with more finesse!» - Derwood Fincher

Offline bem50

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THEORY OF ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIVE
WITH ELEMENTARY PARTICLES CURRENT
AND VACUUM POLARIZATION

http://ej.kubagro.ru/2016/01/pdf/80.pdf


not sure if this is old or new
« Last Edit: 03/05/2018 08:15 PM by bem50 »

Offline demofsky

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Pertinent image from the paper. The gain medium is Neodymium-doped yttrium orthovanadate crystal. The cavity is 5cm in length, with two highly reflecting mirrors at each end.
Just an amazing development!  Can’t speak to the theory or the fabrication difficulty of the medium + mirrors but I have to say it would be so good to get out of the micro newton/small vacuum chamber era to something that produces a nice solid thrust signal!

Needless to say that if this works at anywhere near the thrust levels projected here then the theoretical cat is definitely out of the bag with respect to overunity energy production, etc. with the attendant implications for theoretical physics.

Very early days here but it’s great that folks are reaching out for funding so we may not have to wait too long for confirmation or falsification of this approach.

Offline fvlad

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OnlyMe,
You are one of the few who looks in the "root" and regularly writes about the main problems of EM drive related, not with abstract, but with physical mechanisms of gravity and inertia.
Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 9
OnlyMe « Reply #3272 on: 03/19/2017 02:00 PM »
«NO ONE has yet presented data that even seems designed to demonstrate how any force is produced. At least not that has been publicly shared or published».

You have raised one of the most important topics, this is a key question for all physics. How "any force is produced," a lot of works have been published. It is more difficult to "see" this mechanism and realize it.
For example, flux_capacitor gave an example of the mechanism of the action of force in the "natural particle accelerator"
Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 9
flux_capacitor « Reply #3402 on: 04/03/2017 01:09 PM »
«the magnetic field is maximum near sunspots (where magnetic field lines are denser and concentrated in a smaller area) and minimum at the highest extension point of the arch (where magnetic field lines are more scattered over a wider area). Thus a strong magnetic pressure gradient takes place in the solar prominence, and the arch acts as a natural particle accelerator».

A few more examples of the power action of toroidal gravitational waves are given in my essay (https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2806). With the help of the well-known photos from the NASA gallery, the mechanism of the formation of force formation with the help of toroidal gravitational waves, the effect of which is observed on the rings of Saturn and on comets, is visually shown.

Vladimir
«Experience is what allows us to repeat our mistakes only with more finesse!» - Derwood Fincher

Offline meberbs

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A few more examples of the power action of toroidal gravitational waves are given in my essay (https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2806). With the help of the well-known photos from the NASA gallery, the mechanism of the formation of force formation with the help of toroidal gravitational waves, the effect of which is observed on the rings of Saturn and on comets, is visually shown.
Gravitational waves have nothing to do with the rings of Saturn.

In your abstract you say
Quote
give rise to unfounded generalizations
This is a good summary of your paper. Contrary to experiments you are asserting the existence of an aether, dismissing the real results from actual experiments of gravitational wave detectors.

Here is an article describing how well that gravitational waves have been measured relative to the speed of light. Links to the original research are in the article.
Quote
... another team made up of a small army of physicists used the burst of gamma rays captured from last month's neutron star collision to come up with their own estimate.

Their method was a little more precise.

Ok, a whole lot more precise.

They found the difference between the lightning flash of the gamma ray burst and the thunderclap of the gravitational wave was extremely close - within -3 x 10^-15 and 7 x 10^-16 of c. Close enough to call it a tie, really.
This completely invalidates your claim of a gravitational aether and your claim that gravitational waves aren't correlated with actual events of large objects merging (you demonstrate your ignorance in your paper by referring to "binary pulsars" rather than binary mergers)

Your paper is just a continuous list of unsupported assertions denying experimentally measured facts. You insist that rather than use physical laws that have been thoroughly tested by experiment and are consistent to within our ability to measure, we should use your explanations of observed phenomena despite your explanations often being contrary to existing experiments, and you providing no evidence that any of your interpretations can match a single measured result. Your vague, qualitative relationships are worthless.

Offline goran d

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Wouldn't the emdrive allow for much greater field strength if the inner walls are coated with dielectric with high dielectric strength? It might even allow for order of magnitude improvement as the main limitation is arcing due to field emmission (provided there is vacuum inside).

Offline WarpTech

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Pertinent image from the paper. The gain medium is Neodymium-doped yttrium orthovanadate crystal. The cavity is 5cm in length, with two highly reflecting mirrors at each end.
Just an amazing development!  Can’t speak to the theory or the fabrication difficulty of the medium + mirrors but I have to say it would be so good to get out of the micro newton/small vacuum chamber era to something that produces a nice solid thrust signal!

Needless to say that if this works at anywhere near the thrust levels projected here then the theoretical cat is definitely out of the bag with respect to overunity energy production, etc. with the attendant implications for theoretical physics.

Very early days here but it’s great that folks are reaching out for funding so we may not have to wait too long for confirmation or falsification of this approach.

From what I've read so far, there is nothing to balance conservation of momentum.

Offline fvlad

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Dear meberbs,
In vain did you wrote your comment « Reply #3051 on: 03/06/2018 01:16 PM ».
In this style, they write only when there are no arguments left. You know perfectly well that we will never understand each other. It's like having a useless dialogue between a believer and an atheist.

Any attempt to explain one or another position, in the end, will always be reduced to one question, you believe in the ideal properties of matter and fields or do not believe. You believe in ideal properties and abstractions of mathematics and so you believe in general relativity and causeless quantum mechanics. I do not believe in the ideal properties, and so I got what it turned out (probably not without errors). If man does not do anything, he has not a mistakes. I believe in quantum parametric resonance (wich have causein) in all processes of the universe. And we will not change our opinion.

I do not believe in the ideal properties after watching Stephen Hawking movies, oddly enough. I loved watching his movies. One day, at the very beginning of the film, he says (this is not a quote) that all scientists know that in nature there are no ideal properties of matter and fields. "A genius man said brilliant words," I thought, and was delighted. However, in less than a minute,  he began to talk about the fact that galaxies scatter, because there is a red shift of photons from the galaxies, giving an example with the sound of the departing train.

Then I remembered that redshifts are experienced by photons that propagate from the Sun. Those. photons are attracted to the Sun and experience resistance. Why does Stephen Hawking not mention this redshift mechanism? Did he forget what he said a minute ago about the lack of ideal properties and explain how photons spread in space for many billions of years, carrying the realy big energy of photons, without losing energy? In the head comes the only answer is "to fish in muddy water." I experienced the greatest shock.

Thus, a very real alternative explanation of the redshift is possible. We know that photons do not exhibit ballistic properties, but their propagation velocity in space is constant. Therefore, synchronization of the speed requires interaction with the luminiferous medium of the physical vacuum, which leads to energy losses and a red shift of photons with the Hubble parameter. Consequently, the dissipation of the energy of photons - this is the same "dark energy" that is sought in "muddy water".

You are trying to start a fruitless discussion.
Only experiments will judge us. We need to focus on the experiments and understand the work of EM Drive, until they are closed, due to the negative results of EM Drive work in outer space.

Therefore, I will gradually answer on your claims to my work only in the context of explanations and suggestions for experiments on EM Drive.

Yours faithfully,
Vladimir
«Experience is what allows us to repeat our mistakes only with more finesse!» - Derwood Fincher

Offline meberbs

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In this style, they write only when there are no arguments left.
Yes, your style of post where you don't address a single point I made is one that people with no arguments used.

You know perfectly well that we will never understand each other.
I don't know that because I know nothing about you other than that you currently have some problems with your understanding of physics.

It's like having a useless dialogue between a believer and an atheist.

Any attempt to explain one or another position, in the end, will always be reduced to one question, you believe in the ideal properties of matter and fields or do not believe.
The topic is science, not religion. "Belief" is irrelevant, only what actually is physically measurable through experiment matters. If you reject the results of experiments, you are not talking about science anymore.

You believe in ideal properties and abstractions of mathematics and so you believe in general relativity and causeless quantum mechanics.
No, have of those phrases don't even mean anything to me, so I certainly don't believe in them. I don't "believe" in general relativity either. I know that general relativity explains multiple experimentally observed effects and works to within our capability to measure, but must break down at certain energy scales where quantum mechanics becomes involved.

Then I remembered that redshifts are experienced by photons that propagate from the Sun. Those. photons are attracted to the Sun and experience resistance. Why does Stephen Hawking not mention this redshift mechanism?
Simple, the magnitude of gravitational redshift from typical stars is too small to produce the observed results, and mentioning it will be more likely to confuse the typical person watching his video.

Did he forget what he said a minute ago about the lack of ideal properties and explain how photons spread in space for many billions of years, carrying the realy big energy of photons, without losing energy?
The energy of photons is not "really big" Most of space is very empty, so there is nothing for them to lose energy to. when they do run into something, like dust, entire photons get absorbed at once, so the frequency of photons that didn't hit the dust doesn't change. You You seem to have a strange concept of what "ideal" means in this context. The laws of physics are complicated and include many strange effects, so they inherently aren't "ideal," but as far as we can tell, the laws of physics are very consistent, so things don't just happen for no reason.

We know that photons do not exhibit ballistic properties, but their propagation velocity in space is constant. Therefore, synchronization of the speed requires interaction with the luminiferous medium of the physical vacuum, which leads to energy losses and a red shift of photons with the Hubble parameter.
That is the opposite of the correct conclusion. If the second sentence was true, then we would measure the speed of light as constant relative to that medium, but that it is instead constant regardless of what you measure it relative too.

Only experiments will judge us.
And experiments contradict you.

We need to focus on the experiments and understand the work of EM Drive, until they are closed, due to the negative results of EM Drive work in outer space.
You don't need to put it in space to conclusively measure 0 force (to within photon rocket levels). In fact current experiments have already thoroughly invalidated Shawyer's original claims as they have demonstrated that any signal that exists is much smaller than the forces claimed by Shawyer. Since there is still some small signal that hasn't been conclusively proven to be experimental error, some people are still hoping that there might be a real effect if they perform a more accurate experiment.

Offline Chrochne

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Hi guys,

I spotted today this article. I wonder if ESA nailed it! (it is not EmDrive or at least I think..)

ESA test-fires radical ‘air-breathing’ ion thruster that could keep satellites in low orbit for YEARS without propellant


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5470021/ESA-test-fires-radical-air-breathing-electric-ion-thruster.html

It was posted yesterday.

Also very interesting posts here lately. You guys serioulsy know where to dig for good information :D.


Offline Chrochne

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This seems a bit too good to be true. I can't believe such a small simple device with so limited power could generate so much force (look at the predicted propulsive force given for a 1 cm diameter small end, and a 100 W input power, according to MiHsC).

Multijoule-terawatt-class Nd:glass lasers have been extensively tested back in the mid '70s notably at the LLNL (with Cyclops and Janus, then Argus, Shiva, Nova…). Those setups involved high-precision manufacturing and positioning of every elements. One little dust at such high power and glasses would explode (it happened). If an asymmetry in diameter between two semi-reflecting mirrors produced so much anomalous forces, wouldn't it have been noticed in the various experiments ran accross many decades?

OR as the predicted anomalous force intensity is logarithmic according to Taylor's diagrams, and the Nd:glass so precisely symmetrically manufactured for the high power experiments, any anomalous force never really showed up?

Is someone on these boards aware of any laser experiment involving asymmetric AND convex/concave mirrors done in the past, like Taylor's proposal?

Whatever, I hope this experiment will be done, it seems very accessible for any serious lab like TU Dresden. Martin Tajmar already expressed interest.



Still thank you for finding that out! I really like the community here :) So much inspirational topics and discussions.

Recommendation: If you feel down come to NSF EmDrive forum :D You will feel you can reach the stars again (literary) ;D

Online flux_capacitor

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Hi guys,

I spotted today this article. I wonder if ESA nailed it! (it is not EmDrive or at least I think..)

ESA test-fires radical ‘air-breathing’ ion thruster that could keep satellites in low orbit for YEARS without propellant


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5470021/ESA-test-fires-radical-air-breathing-electric-ion-thruster.html

It was posted yesterday.

Also very interesting posts here lately. You guys serioulsy know where to dig for good information :D.

Nothing to do with propellantless propulsion, as the ambient air is the propellant here, but definitely a step in the right direction. The article fails however to correctly explain the process in a popular way and has instead an even misleading passage:
Quote
Collect and compress the air molecules to a level where thruster ignition could take place.

This wording uses a jargon from common air-breathing turbojets, which indeed compress ambient air then burn its oxygen with kerosene stored in a tank onboard.

Instead, an electric ion thruster does not "ignite" a propellant, it accelerates ions with a powerful electric field. Therefore, the thruster uses nitrogen from the ambient air instead of some xenon stored in a tank onboard. As air has naturally no charges and is poorly conductive, they first have to ionize it, to produce an electrically conductive plasma.

This is rather dubious that the author never uses the terms "ionization" nor "plasma". However he quotes a vague but correct sentence "the thruster is able to charge and accelerate the incoming air".

"Charge"… Okay. So the air is ionized. If they indeed "compress it" they can't do it too much because it is energetically very costly to ionize a gas at a high pressure. However, ionization of air is much easier at an altitude of 200 km, as its electrical conductivity is increasing while its pressure drops. See Paschen's law.

One day they will find that using the Lorentz force E×B with an applied multi-tesla magnetic field in air-breathing electromagnetic plasma thrusters can produce not only a high specific impulse like those ion thrusters that rely mainly on the E-field, but also tremendous thrust levels. However a 10T superconductor is quite heavy and a very compact and powerful energy source would be mandatory to give so much current. Ion thrusters have a long life ahead of them before being eventually replaced by more powerful elecromagnetic plasma thrusters.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2018 03:38 PM by flux_capacitor »

Offline Bob012345

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This seems a bit too good to be true. I can't believe such a small simple device with so limited power could generate so much force (look at the predicted propulsive force given for a 1 cm diameter small end, and a 100 W input power, according to MiHsC).


The magnitude of the force itself is not hard to believe since comparable forces were predicted for MEMS based conventional engines over twenty years ago. The proposed exotic physics that enables it is what needs to be tested.

http://www-mtl.mit.edu/researchgroups/mems/people/schmidt/conferences/48.EpsteinAIAAJuneJuly97.pdf
« Last Edit: 03/07/2018 07:28 PM by Bob012345 »

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