Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 10  (Read 1181794 times)

Online Rodal

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....

If he used just glass would that be a shield enough from convection currents allowing him to still see what is going on with his experiment?  ...

...

No, the insulation is not there to shield from forced convection currents.

The issue is not insulating from forced convection in the room (as for example a fan or drafts in his room), in which case all you would need would be to have glass, or transparent plastic, or whatever non-permeable surface, to prevent the forced convection.

The issue is to minimize natural (also called "free") convection, not forced convection.  (We suppose that Monomorphic has no fans, air conditioning or heating vents with forced convection and other sources of forced convection  impinging on the enclosure and in any case the present transparent enclosure prevents such forced convection)

Natural convection is the result of difference in temperature between surfaces of the chamber. 

The purpose is to minimize the temperature gradient within the chamber.

To minimize natural convection he needs to insulate the chamber, so that the temperature gradients are minimized.

He needs to have all the internal surfaces of the chamber at the same temperature.  (Single pane) glass will not do that.  He needs to minimize the coefficient of heat transfer, he needs to have surfaces with low thermal conductivity.  He needs lots of insulation

It is also a good idea to minimize internal sources of heat.




« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 04:06 pm by Rodal »

Offline LowerAtmosphere

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Meaning it would be fruitful to heat the container to predicted outside surface temperature i.e. ~55C0.

Online Rodal

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Meaning it would be fruitful to heat the container to predicted outside surface temperature i.e. ~55C0.
It looks to me that heating/cooling (temperature control of) all surfaces to the same temperature is more complicated than using insulation.
« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 02:15 pm by Rodal »

Online meberbs

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Meberbs -

Here is a simple model metric to describe a spatially varying rate of  flow of time/time dilation/g00:

...

It doesn't matter at all what other cases of acceleration with or without gravity exist. (Notice that time dilation that is not spatially variable is irrelevant.) I'm not discussing those. I'm discussing the above case, where it is manifest that a spatially varying g00 causes accelerations. If you can engineer that (big ask) things will start to move, according to accepted physics.
What you showed here is correlation, not causation, and I never disputed correlation.

This in no way supports your previous statements that: Newtonian gravity has time dilation, and that we know how time dilation causes gravity.

The second statement requires 2 pieces, first that time dilation is the cause, and second the specific mechanism that produces this.

To give an example of what these 2 mean, throwing hot gasses out the back of a rocket causes it to accelerate. Knowing how this happens requires discussion of things like converging-diverging nozzles.

The equations you wrote do not say anything about causation themselves. They can just as easily read that matter creates a gravitational field that attracts other matter, and that the gravitational field bends space time causing time dilation. I am not claiming we know the "how" here, in fact I am pretty sure we don't as that is a matter of quantum gravity and whether or not there is a such thing as a graviton.

Your description of "spatially varying time dilation" does exclude the example of other forms of acceleration that cause time dilation, but this still is some conceptual strangeness that time dilation is a cause in one case, and an effect in the other. Also worth noting is the description I just provided included the presence of matter as the ultimate "cause" in the situation which is easy to arrange to then see the effects, while in your attempt to explain that time dilation is the cause, you got stuck on the how to engineer this time dilation to exist.

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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Meaning it would be fruitful to heat the container to predicted outside surface temperature i.e. ~55C0.

DANG

If you can't beat them, join them; now this is an interesting idea IMVHO

Offline Bob Woods

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This time of year ambient outside temperatures are rapidly cooling in the Northern Hemisphere. Yet there appears to be a concrete slab resting on the earth underneath it, which is more slowly cooling down from the summertime high temperatures that warmed both the slab and the earth. That radiated heat may also be absorbed by the test bed itself, and a precision surface thermometer may show a temperature differential from the bottom of the test stand, closest to the floor, than at the top.


Mono wrapped the chamber and the presumed convection noise stopped. If you put an area rug underneath the test stand and measure the amount noise, if the amount of the noise decreases from prior runs you may have identified the source.

Offline WarpTech

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Was Monomorphic playing very loud music during the experiments and had big woofers directed at the experiment?

I was not playing loud music. If it is mostly convection, what are other ways to reduce it?  I wonder if it would help if I filled some of the interior of the draft enclosure with foam blocks to help break up the larger volumes of air. 

A vacuum chamber is probably out of the question for the time being. Not only is there a large cost with building the chamber, but as Paul pointed out, the electronics and batteries would need to be vacuum hardened or otherwise protected from the vacuum. There is vacuum rated 3D printer filament available, but the PLA I used would out-gas in a vacuum.

Foam, as in "styrofoam" insulation, as well as other fiber based insulators, are also electrical insulators. They tend to accumulate large surface charges that are very difficult to shunt to ground. If you filled the interior with foam, you would probably need to cover the foam in copper foil, in order to remove all the static charge that would affect your thrust measurements. I think the blankets on the outside are a great idea. Just add a lighted webcam to see what is going on inside, or trust your instruments.


Offline Monomorphic

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I noticed the noise had returned this morning with the colder temperatures so I used the infrared camera and there was a 1.5 degree difference between the thin walls and the interior surfaces. Fortunately I designed the draft enclosure so that insulation could be added later. The insulation used is 3/4 inch thick with a rating of 3.8. The entire inside surface area of the draft enclosure is now covered with overlapping insulation so that all those surfaces remain the same temperature. Another important aspect is to make sure the exterior room temperature remains constant.  Having it several degrees hotter or colder outside the enclosure is not good for natural convection.  I will be using a space heater for that.

I've never seen the pendulum this steady. If static charges become a problem, I would gladly cover the foam with foil.    :D

« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 09:38 pm by Monomorphic »

Offline rq3

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I noticed the noise had returned this morning with the colder temperatures so I used the infrared camera and noticed a 1.5 degree difference between the thin walls and the interior surfaces. Fortunately I designed the draft enclosure so that insulation could be added later. The insulation used is 3/4 inch thick with a rating of 3.8. The entire inside surface area of the draft enclosure is now covered with overlapping insulation so that all those surfaces remain the same temperature. Another important aspect is to make sure the exterior room temperature remains constant.  Having it several degrees hotter or colder outside the enclosure is not good for natural convection.  I will be using a space heater for that.

I've never seen the pendulum this steady. If static charges become a problem, I would gladly cover the foam with foil.    :D

By the 18th century, pendulum clocks had been corrected for temperature, atmospheric pressure, humidity, friction, isochronism, pendulum drag, sustainance, and various other factors to the point that they could be used to detect the gravitational attraction due to the phases of the moon, and had rates so stable that the effect of the sun's gravitational attraction could (just) be detected as the earth rotated through the annual seasons.

Flip the switch already!!! If your torsion pendulum gets any better, you'll be obsessing about microbaroms from oceanic tidal action, or the decades long magnetic shift of the earth's poles!
« Last Edit: 10/20/2017 09:40 pm by rq3 »

Offline Mr. Peter

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Flip the switch already!!!

I second that.
 :D

Offline dustinthewind

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Meberbs -

Here is a simple model metric to describe a spatially varying rate of  flow of time/time dilation/g00:

...

It doesn't matter at all what other cases of acceleration with or without gravity exist. (Notice that time dilation that is not spatially variable is irrelevant.) I'm not discussing those. I'm discussing the above case, where it is manifest that a spatially varying g00 causes accelerations. If you can engineer that (big ask) things will start to move, according to accepted physics.
What you showed here is correlation, not causation, and I never disputed correlation.

This in no way supports your previous statements that: Newtonian gravity has time dilation, and that we know how time dilation causes gravity.

The second statement requires 2 pieces, first that time dilation is the cause, and second the specific mechanism that produces this.

To give an example of what these 2 mean, throwing hot gasses out the back of a rocket causes it to accelerate. Knowing how this happens requires discussion of things like converging-diverging nozzles.

The equations you wrote do not say anything about causation themselves. They can just as easily read that matter creates a gravitational field that attracts other matter, and that the gravitational field bends space time causing time dilation. I am not claiming we know the "how" here, in fact I am pretty sure we don't as that is a matter of quantum gravity and whether or not there is a such thing as a graviton.

Your description of "spatially varying time dilation" does exclude the example of other forms of acceleration that cause time dilation, but this still is some conceptual strangeness that time dilation is a cause in one case, and an effect in the other. Also worth noting is the description I just provided included the presence of matter as the ultimate "cause" in the situation which is easy to arrange to then see the effects, while in your attempt to explain that time dilation is the cause, you got stuck on the how to engineer this time dilation to exist.

Many physical systems are reversible.  A sterling engine can run off a temperature gradient but if you use energy to run the sterling engine you can induce a temperature gradient. 

Possibly similar is that the presence of matter induces a gravitational field which could be claimed to induce a time gradient.  Running this in reverse if we claim the presence of matter induces the time gradient then inducing such a time gradient by some, as of yet unknown means, may emulate the gravitational field of matter. 

It may not matter which comes first. 

Just because we don't know how to engineer a time gradient yet doesn't mean its impossible.  Maybe something as simple as this experiment below could be some how polarizing the vacuum in some unknown way or maybe their experiment is flawed. 

Davids video at 34 minutes states that either negative or positive charges may be associated with an exotic matter solution.  Makes me think of the anti-matter in the vacuum being time reverse negative energy.  Or that is while being annihilated, and the time reversal cancels out, so that it exists in the vacuum as negative energy, while outside the vacuum as positive energy.



« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 01:16 am by dustinthewind »

Offline Bob Woods

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OK, another question. Let me see if I have this correct:


In a frustum in resonance with a TE mode, the visualization of meep runs, in general, show the electric field contained transversely (L/R), while the magnetic field is axial (Top/Bottom). There can be multiple lobes of the TE field. Those lobes do not "travel", but stay fixed until the energy dissipates.


Does the magnetic field also stay "fixed" along the copper skin, or does it actually travel along the skin? Is there an actively moving magnetic field within the skin, and does that field cross transversely to create the confined electric force lobes?


 
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 01:28 am by Bob Woods »

Offline dustinthewind

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OK, another question. Let me see if I have this correct:


In a frustum in resonance with a TE mode, the visualization of meep runs, in general, show the electric field contained transversely (L/R), while the magnetic field is axial (Top/Bottom). There can be multiple lobes of the TE field. Those lobes do not "travel", but stay fixed until the energy dissipates.

Yes there should be a magnetic component which runs up the axis or down and vertical along the metal skin.  There is another magnetic component which is not vertical but horizontal while remaining perpendicular to the electric field.  This horizontal magnetic component exist between the two electric fields as a lobe or it can reside near the top or bottom along the skin of the metal. 

They exist as "semi standing waves" so both standing and traveling.  Because energy is being lost there is a traveling component.  This traveling component represents the energy traveling to the location where it is being dissipated as thermal heat.  The traveling component should be smaller in magnitude compared to the stored energy amplified by the quality effect Q. 

Quote
Does the magnetic field also stay "fixed" along the copper skin, or does it actually travel along the skin? Is there an actively moving magnetic field within the skin, and does that field cross transversely to create the confined electric force lobes?

The traveling component should travel from the site of injection, the antenna, to the skin where it is dissipated.  Considering that heat travels through metal to escape the cavity there should be some component which travels through the metal to escape the cavity as thermal radiation. 

I some what doubt that once the radiation enters deep inside the copper as heat that it retains its nice lobe shapes, as the standing wave in the cavity.  Thermal randomness likely eliminates this.  There should be an exponentially decaying component of the magnetic field that enters the copper and retains its field shape. 

I suspect it is the coppers inability to perfectly cancel out the lights electric field to make the magnetic field along the metal skin (non-superconductor has resistance) that allows thermal induction.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  This should be the (Electric and Magnetic) component that enters the metal to disturb the lattice. 

What you will observe in the field simulations are the standing field, and not the traveling field.  That is unless the standing field is subtracted out, and the solution is for a restive metal that is not static in time.  Or by having a Q close to 1.

P.S. a big congratulations to the LIGO–Virgo collaboration on their detection event combined with visual observations.  physicsworld.com spectacular-collision-of-two-neutron-stars-observed-for-first-time
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 04:01 am by dustinthewind »

Offline JonathanD

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I've never seen the pendulum this steady....

I'm entirely unqualified to participate in any technical or theoretical aspect of the discussion, but I had just one layman question.  If the ambient acoustic/thermal environment is sufficient to cause measurement noise significant enough to potentially obscure results, once you really start pumping photons in there isn't it going to be bonkers in terms of noise?  The frustum has to get pretty toasty pretty fast.  The little burbles of ambient noise or seismic activity should pale in comparison, no?  At the end of the day is the only way to really prove or disprove this thing is to have it in orbit?

Woops, that was more than one layman question, apologies.  Irrespective of that, it doesn't take away from what so many of you have you have done for years now, both in theory and in actual testing.  I know there is much more to come.  Please don't quit!  I think it's a rabbit hole worthy of getting to the bottom of.  Tremendous respect for all of you.

Don't mind me, back to lurking :)

Offline PotomacNeuron

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I've never seen the pendulum this steady....

I'm entirely unqualified to participate in any technical or theoretical aspect of the discussion, but I had just one layman question.  If the ambient acoustic/thermal environment is sufficient to cause measurement noise significant enough to potentially obscure results, once you really start pumping photons in there isn't it going to be bonkers in terms of noise?  The frustum has to get pretty toasty pretty fast.  The little burbles of ambient noise or seismic activity should pale in comparison, no?  At the end of the day is the only way to really prove or disprove this thing is to have it in orbit?

Woops, that was more than one layman question, apologies.  Irrespective of that, it doesn't take away from what so many of you have you have done for years now, both in theory and in actual testing.  I know there is much more to come.  Please don't quit!  I think it's a rabbit hole worthy of getting to the bottom of.  Tremendous respect for all of you.

Don't mind me, back to lurking :)

One can imagine that effects caused by EM field strength will be fast, and effects caused by heating will be slow. This is what happened in EW's 2014 experiment (Their 2015 experiment, however, has almost only slow effects.). By separating fast and slow effects, I think Monomorphic will be able to control for heating problem.


I am working on the ultimate mission human beings are made for.

Offline Peter Lauwer

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I noticed the noise had returned this morning with the colder temperatures so I used the infrared camera and there was a 1.5 degree difference between the thin walls and the interior surfaces. Fortunately I designed the draft enclosure so that insulation could be added later. The insulation used is 3/4 inch thick with a rating of 3.8. The entire inside surface area of the draft enclosure is now covered with overlapping insulation so that all those surfaces remain the same temperature. Another important aspect is to make sure the exterior room temperature remains constant.  Having it several degrees hotter or colder outside the enclosure is not good for natural convection.  I will be using a space heater for that.

I've never seen the pendulum this steady. If static charges become a problem, I would gladly cover the foam with foil.    :D

Hi Jamie. I also had this in the past. With a cage made out of 2 inch styropor sheets, covered with Al on the inside, turbulence started when the inside temp was ~1°C higher than the outside.
It would stop then if the lab was heated a bit.
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.   — Richard Feynman

Offline Mulletron

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...quantum mechanical ...
It's turning into a complicated mess for me to be able to understand using this approach.
Forgive the butchering of your quote, but I have found that quantum mechanics usually results turning attempts at understanding into a "complicated mess." Unfortunately necessary sometimes, but best to avoid when possible.

I understand that half of the energy is in the magnetic field and half is in the electric field.
I generally agree with what you wrote, but one fine point here.  I am not sure how accurately you can say the split is 50-50. That might be a valid perspective, but at the same time, it is probably better to just think of the fields as a single "electromagnetic field," and all of the energy belongs to the fields. This is particularly apparent in relativity, where the fields transform together as a single tensor object.

https://physics.info/em-waves/
The exactly half applies to electromagnetic waves in free space. I am fairly certain that it does not apply in general, such as inside a resonator where you have nearby (temporary) charge distributions on the metal walls. It certainly is not true for the region of space near a point charge, with no other fields present. It could be true inside a resonator, but I wouldn't trust that unless someone could work out the proof.

I mostly just wanted to express my suggestion (just a suggestion) to treat the electric and magnetic fields as a single "electromagnetic field" instead.

In case it wasn't immediately obvious why I'm choosing to speak of electric and magnetic field separately in a cavity, it's because they're 90 degrees out of phase in a cavity.

The energy goes back and forth between electric and magnetic energy. I'm interested in the losses that incur from each component interaction with the cavity walls.

See 1.29 below

https://books.google.com/books?id=6BhWMXBf3JYC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=cavity+electromagnetic+out+of+phase&source=bl&ots=Ksbiw_7m-k&sig=3cTZFSSfEOWPFQehPx2LHhRbbzw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOn7an54HXAhUGRCYKHSt1DrcQ6AEIHTAH#v=onepage&q=cavity%20electromagnetic%20out%20of%20phase&f=false

In the pdf attachment, specifically between equations 33-56 further illustrates the need to separate the electric and magnetic fields in a cavity. Take note that this example shows a perfectly standing wave because they assumed perfectly conducting walls. In reality, there's losses. Just because the electric and magnetic fields are unified under electromagnetism, that doesn't mean one should neglect either component, especially if one is interested in understanding how each separately contributes to losses.

So yes it appears to be an equal 50-50 energy split. The losses aren't necessarily 50-50 even though loss of energy from one (like eddy currents from the magnetic component) would result in loss of total energy of both.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 04:49 pm by Mulletron »
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Offline Tcarey

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At the risk of being a simpleton, I'm going to speculate that the error induced by these convection currents is going to be swamped out as soon as he turns on the power and the various heat sources from the electronics start to induce convection currents inside the cabinet.  Obviously characterizing and eliminating as many sources of noise is a good thing.

Clearly convection currents inside the cabinet once power is applied are going to be an issue that needs to be understood.

The obvious solution is to engineer an EM drive that has enough force to make these effects small in comparison.  ;)
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 06:00 pm by Tcarey »

Offline Peter Lauwer

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...
The obvious solution is to engineer an EM drive that has enough force to make these effects small in comparison.  ;)

Gee, Tcarey, that we didn't think of this. The solution was staring us right in the face.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 06:45 pm by Peter Lauwer »
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.   — Richard Feynman

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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...
The obvious solution is to engineer an EM drive that has enough force to make these effects small in comparison.  ;)

Gee, Tcarey, that we didn't think of this. The solution was staring us right in the face.

LOL !

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