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#540 by mwvp on 10 Jul, 2017 18:04
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The jury is still out.
While the idea of resolving the controversy is appealing...
Resolution of the Abraham-Minkowski Controversy
...
The emDrive of Shawyer appears to be photon fueled with charges from the walls and geometry interactions while the Woodward drive depends on accelerations to produce relativistic frame dragging and molecular stretching of PZT with asymmetric mass.
Perhaps invoking Abraham-Minkowski isn't precise, our context being a waveguide. But I think its important to recognize that materials with a non-unity refractive index are Fresnel-dragging light/EM energy.
The trick of the EM drive is to produce a slow deBroglie-like slow travelling-wave of unbalanced radiation pressure at a speed matching the acceleration of the dispersive cavity.
By trapping the Doppler-downshifted lower sideband, and dissipating it as heat in the frustrums base.
This is what happens in a half-cycle of cavity opto-mechanical heating (and on the other sideband, cooling). Motor/generator depending on which sideband.
That having a high refractive index isn't great when you're trying to swim through the photon-polarized vacuum is evident when you look at design equations for Sagnac gyro, which demonstrates the Abraham momentum is what gets sensed. The Minkowsi momentum gets rotated (radial accelerated) in the inertial frame of the gyro, and is no reference.
I'm wondering if Conservation of Angular momentum plays a role in either Shawyer's or Woodward's theory. Woodward's theory seem to be the leading theory.
Is there common ground between the two theories. To date, I have not seen a good comparative analysis, just conjecture.What we don't know is the precise mechanism sans artifacts.
...
Bridging the gap between the two experimental approaches will require carefully using energy density calculations not just of a Poynting vector but the vector fields and quite possibly tensor fields. Even then, the six degrees of freedom may simply not be enough for a good answer but far too much to get at the physics which is usually 1 or 2 degrees of freedom.
Yes, m = E/c^2...however, energy density may be more important
m/volume = E/(volume c^2)
Conservation of angular momentum at the molecular, atomic and elementary level may also need to be taken into account.
David M
I haven't studied Woodward much. Both approaches seem a bit, perhaps an order of magnitude or two, out of reach because of material Q and field breakdown/saturation.
I find the Lorentz Reciprocity matter, like Abraham-Minkowski (vacuum radiation momentum reaction force against polarized, inertial-frame locked material polarization) key.
It must lead to thermodynamic and entropy considerations. But in contrast to what has been discussed here WRT gravitation, with Doppler-shifted energy from cavity acceleration. Again, Cavity Optomechanics encompasses the Shawyer Effect. -
#541 by mwvp on 10 Jul, 2017 18:08
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Maybe offtopic but AIAA Propulsion and Energy 2017 just started their livestream over three days.
https://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2017
Got a link for the agenda? Any interesting (no doubt all interesting, but..) relevant lectures & times to share? -
#542 by demofsky on 10 Jul, 2017 19:00
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This is from their web site: http://propulsionenergy.aiaa.org/DetailedProgram/Maybe offtopic but AIAA Propulsion and Energy 2017 just started their livestream over three days.
https://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2017
Got a link for the agenda? Any interesting (no doubt all interesting, but..) relevant lectures & times to share? -
#543 by fulygan4ik on 10 Jul, 2017 19:40
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Ukrainian scientists conduct a private investigation of the EM-Drive propeller for space use. After analyzing all the created designs, a completely different approach to the creation of such a propulsion was proposed. Until the end of the full volume test layout design and calculations are kept secret. It is only known that the calculated thrust of this propulsion should be up to several tens of grams per 1 kilowatt of supplied energy, in contrast to the units of micrograms obtained by NASA and CNSA, and has a nonlinear growth with increasing power.
"insider"
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#544 by dustinthewind on 10 Jul, 2017 20:01
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No you didn't miss much. You never do.
Interesting reading...Active resonators can be easily implemented in an experiment using solid state RF sources, to achieve a 1000x increase in Q factor
...
This can be a setup with a solid state RF power generator controlled both in frequency and phase:
Would I be correct in assuming this active resonator doesn't actually increase Q per photon? That is you inject a hand full of photons and the active resonator sees the photons, so it generates other photons based on what it sees.
...
At some equilibrium energy level does this active resonator actually reduce energy lost to thermal heat?
...
I am not seeing how it actually increases Q other than to give the illusion it increases Q.
...
Maybe I am not seeing something key.
http://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=105280
@Josave,
Yes, you can increase Q by injecting positive feedback. And if you increase the positive feedback gain enough, you'll have an oscillator with negative Q - more energy out than you put in. A regenerative amplifier. You can research regenerative and super-regenerative receiver/amplifier. Alas, this maketh not a free energy machine...
@dustinthewind,
An active resonator will not reduce energy dissipated as heat. Reality being what it is, it will make more heat according to the efficiency and losses of the amplifier and its network.
Since, as I believe, propulsive force is the result of unbalanced radiation pressure, and the radiation pressure is proportional to the power in the cavity, and the power in the cavity is input power multiplied by the Q of the cavity (its ability to store energy), for active regeneration to help you really are suggesting using a more powerful amplifier.
Why bother? A while back, someone suggested synthesizing a waveform to optimize group-velocity difference. They failed to understand that, (for instance) for a 1 Newton differential force, they need to pump in 150 Megawatts at the apex and and 150 megawatts at the base of synthesized RF, and your frustrum can have a Q of 1.
If your frustrum has a Q of a million, then you may get on the order of a Newton of radiation pressure with 150 watts BUT, now your 150 watt synthesized signal is dwarfed by the stored 300 megawatt energy reverberating in the frustrum/filter. You'll only be nudging the phase. Energy will slosh around, and the cavity accelerate according to the sloshing radiation pressure, according the the reflective and dissipation characteristics of the cavity, along with the 1/1,000,000 energy you inject.
@Shell,
What's of interest? I gather that the idea is to avoid multiplying the phase noise of the low phase noise DDS, by adding it as an offset, rather than using it as the multiplicand in the signal chain. Is there some other relevance I'm missing?
Shell
This just go me thinking him stating frequency offset and phase. Why not while feeding power in continually offset the phase. This would probably lower the Q but would, I think cause the illusion of a traveling wave. The phase injected would have to be continually drifting forwards or in reverse.
Such a traveling wave may possibly have some effects such that the cavity wants to drift with it as well as similar effects with plasma if it exists in such a state.
Edit: How to shift a phase continually. I'm not extremely experienced in such technology. One possibility strikes me that this patent might possibly be a way to accomplish this result Continuously variable phase shift network https://www.google.com/patents/US4232399QuoteWhen maximum phase shift is reached, the control circuit switches the signal from one phase shifter to the other, thereby providing continuously variable phase shift through the network.
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#545 by Rodal on 10 Jul, 2017 20:06
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This is from their web site: http://propulsionenergy.aiaa.org/DetailedProgram/Maybe offtopic but AIAA Propulsion and Energy 2017 just started their livestream over three days.
https://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2017
Got a link for the agenda? Any interesting (no doubt all interesting, but..) relevant lectures & times to share?
WEDNESDAY
0800-0900 hrs Plenary: Civil Space
William H. Gerstenmaier, Associate Administrator, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, NASA
1330-1500 hrs Plenary: Space Exploration Propulsion
Julie Van Kleeck, Vice President of Advanced Space and Launch Programs and Strategy, Aerojet Rocketdyne (Moderator)
R. Joseph Cassady, Executive Director for Space, Aerojet Rocketdyne
Darby Cooper, Senior Manager, Integrated Analysis, Space Launch System, Exploration Launch Systems, Boeing
Steve Jolly, Chief Engineer, Commercial Civil Space, Lockheed Martin
David H. Manzella, Solar Electric Propulsion Project Chief Engineer, NASA Glenn Research Center
Todd May, Director, NASA Marshall Space Flight Center
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#546 by RotoSequence on 10 Jul, 2017 20:15
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This is from their web site: http://propulsionenergy.aiaa.org/DetailedProgram/Maybe offtopic but AIAA Propulsion and Energy 2017 just started their livestream over three days.
https://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2017
Got a link for the agenda? Any interesting (no doubt all interesting, but..) relevant lectures & times to share?
WEDNESDAY
0800-0900 hrs Plenary: Civil Space
William H. Gerstenmaier, Associate Administrator, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, NASA
1330-1500 hrs Plenary: Space Exploration Propulsion
Julie Van Kleeck, Vice President of Advanced Space and Launch Programs and Strategy, Aerojet Rocketdyne (Moderator)
R. Joseph Cassady, Executive Director for Space, Aerojet Rocketdyne
Darby Cooper, Senior Manager, Integrated Analysis, Space Launch System, Exploration Launch Systems, Boeing
Steve Jolly, Chief Engineer, Commercial Civil Space, Lockheed Martin
David H. Manzella, Solar Electric Propulsion Project Chief Engineer, NASA Glenn Research Center
Todd May, Director, NASA Marshall Space Flight Center
Nothing that sounds directly pertinent to EM Drive and other related concepts.
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#547 by mwvp on 11 Jul, 2017 04:11
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...
@dustinthewind,
...
If your frustrum has a Q of a million, then you may get on the order of a Newton of radiation pressure with 150 watts BUT, now your 150 watt synthesized signal is dwarfed by the stored 300 megawatt energy reverberating in the frustrum/filter. You'll only be nudging the phase. Energy will slosh around, and the cavity accelerate according to the sloshing radiation pressure, according the the reflective and dissipation characteristics of the cavity, along with the 1/1,000,000 energy you inject.
...
This just go me thinking him stating frequency offset and phase. Why not while feeding power in continually offset the phase. This would probably lower the Q but would, I think cause the illusion of a traveling wave. The phase injected would have to be continually drifting forwards or in reverse.
Such a traveling wave may possibly have some effects such that the cavity wants to drift with it as well as similar effects with plasma if it exists in such a state.
...
Once again, consider the cavity energy magnitude, field amplitudes, and you'll find what you inject is trivial in the short run. In the long run, it's everything. BTW a continuous phase offset, if I understand, is an FM chirp. Phase modulation and frequency modulation are essentially the same, differing in application and implementation. Sort of like the difference between X-rays and gamma rays. Can have similar photons with similar energy, indistinguishable, but from natural or synthetic origin.
I wonder about Shawyer's diagrams of spring-mounting, and pulsing multiple cavities. Like multiple pistons in an engine. Is it about loss of coherence over time? Is the cavity being deliberately shaken, like a Woodward device, to enhance Doppler spreading and thrust? The cavity would exhibit lower inertial "mass" in "motor" direction, and heavier inertia in "generator" direction.Ukrainian scientists conduct a private investigation of the EM-Drive propeller for space use.
...
Really? A "propeller" you say?
That brings to mind some methods that dustinthewind might find of interest. What if you spin a helix, in a helical resonator? Or what if you spin patch resonators at different speeds at the apex and base? Or what if you spin birefringent dielectric spheres at the center of each mode of a multi-mode cavity at different speeds? Or what if you use magnet/electric tuned gyro-magnetic/electric materials at the center of the modes?
A large stored energy fraction, depending on the size of the propeller, is affected.
Assuming the "propeller" is low, very low loss, it will create an orbital angular momentum Doppler shift in a whispering-gallery type resonator. It will effect a large fraction of the cavity energy. In a dispersive gradient, it will amplify the stored energy. Although it Doppler spreads in the inertial frame of the waveguide, the difference frequencies can be tuned to the acceleration of the cavity/vehicle. This spread would make the optomechanical frequency-sorting, sideband heating more effective.
The group velocity/delay of conventional metal cavities of Q 10 - 100 K is around 10's of KHz. The vehicle acceleration (deep, long space missions) is sub m/s. Consequently, very small Doppler shift, very inefficient, unless you synthetically "boost" the energy differences. Still, the efficiency is probably between ghastly and abysmal. Hopefully better than Hall Effect and ion.
The ends and sides could also be vibrated. Shawyer claims its to keep the cavity in tune. Is that the only reason? My off the cuff reckoning is vibration aint good 'nuf without superconductors.
Gyromagnetic/electric material could be "spun" electrically at maybe MHz frequencies. Perhaps providing parametric amplification. Perhaps even oscillating all by itself; no (RF) power-input needed! A microwave alternator, or Raman Maser. Such a device would be a Jim dandy high-power microwave weapon, so I don't think there may be much open literature on the concept.
Many years ago I read about a Russian rocket-pumped Maser. Now I can understand how firing a high-speed stream of highly-ionized plasma down a slow-wave structure can oscillate (like a traveling-wave tube). Rocket exhaust velocity must be faster than microwave group velocity, and you've got a Cerenkov Maser, or Shawyer's "generator mode".
So can you synthesize a motivating one-handed-clap sound of imbalanced group velocity? Electromagnetic propulsion theorist say YES! (Unlike ancient astronaut theorists, we don't always say YES! do we?)...
Conservation of angular momentum at the molecular, atomic and elementary level may also need to be taken into account.
David M
When dealing with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_angular_momentum_of_light, you could copy the turbo-compressor, using rotors and dispersive stators to "unwind" the topological charge of the helical radiation flux.
Alas, for a nuclear dispersive stator to unwind matter waves into radiation waves. -
#548 by Chrochne on 11 Jul, 2017 04:46
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Ukrainian scientists conduct a private investigation of the EM-Drive propeller for space use. After analyzing all the created designs, a completely different approach to the creation of such a propulsion was proposed. Until the end of the full volume test layout design and calculations are kept secret. It is only known that the calculated thrust of this propulsion should be up to several tens of grams per 1 kilowatt of supplied energy, in contrast to the units of micrograms obtained by NASA and CNSA, and has a nonlinear growth with increasing power.
"insider"
If there is any article about it or if you have any other information about this upcoming test, we would be glad for links that you can provide. -
#549 by dustinthewind on 11 Jul, 2017 06:49
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...
@dustinthewind,
...
If your frustrum has a Q of a million, then you may get on the order of a Newton of radiation pressure with 150 watts BUT, now your 150 watt synthesized signal is dwarfed by the stored 300 megawatt energy reverberating in the frustrum/filter. You'll only be nudging the phase. Energy will slosh around, and the cavity accelerate according to the sloshing radiation pressure, according the the reflective and dissipation characteristics of the cavity, along with the 1/1,000,000 energy you inject.
...
This just go me thinking him stating frequency offset and phase. Why not while feeding power in continually offset the phase. This would probably lower the Q but would, I think cause the illusion of a traveling wave. The phase injected would have to be continually drifting forwards or in reverse.
Such a traveling wave may possibly have some effects such that the cavity wants to drift with it as well as similar effects with plasma if it exists in such a state.
...
Once again, consider the cavity energy magnitude, field amplitudes, and you'll find what you inject is trivial in the short run. In the long run, it's everything. BTW a continuous phase offset, if I understand, is an FM chirp. Phase modulation and frequency modulation are essentially the same, differing in application and implementation. Sort of like the difference between X-rays and gamma rays. Can have similar photons with similar energy, indistinguishable, but from natural or synthetic origin.
I wonder about Shawyer's diagrams of spring-mounting, and pulsing multiple cavities. Like multiple pistons in an engine. Is it about loss of coherence over time? Is the cavity being deliberately shaken, like a Woodward device, to enhance Doppler spreading and thrust? The cavity would exhibit lower inertial "mass" in "motor" direction, and heavier inertia in "generator" direction.Ukrainian scientists conduct a private investigation of the EM-Drive propeller for space use.
...
Really? A "propeller" you say?
That brings to mind some methods that dustinthewind might find of interest. What if you spin a helix, in a helical resonator? Or what if you spin patch resonators at different speeds at the apex and base? Or what if you spin birefringent dielectric spheres at the center of each mode of a multi-mode cavity at different speeds? Or what if you use magnet/electric tuned gyro-magnetic/electric materials at the center of the modes?
A large stored energy fraction, depending on the size of the propeller, is affected.
Assuming the "propeller" is low, very low loss, it will create an orbital angular momentum Doppler shift in a whispering-gallery type resonator. It will effect a large fraction of the cavity energy. In a dispersive gradient, it will amplify the stored energy. Although it Doppler spreads in the inertial frame of the waveguide, the difference frequencies can be tuned to the acceleration of the cavity/vehicle. This spread would make the optomechanical frequency-sorting, sideband heating more effective.
The group velocity/delay of conventional metal cavities of Q 10 - 100 K is around 10's of KHz. The vehicle acceleration (deep, long space missions) is sub m/s. Consequently, very small Doppler shift, very inefficient, unless you synthetically "boost" the energy differences. Still, the efficiency is probably between ghastly and abysmal. Hopefully better than Hall Effect and ion.
The ends and sides could also be vibrated. Shawyer claims its to keep the cavity in tune. Is that the only reason? My off the cuff reckoning is vibration aint good 'nuf without superconductors.
Gyromagnetic/electric material could be "spun" electrically at maybe MHz frequencies. Perhaps providing parametric amplification. Perhaps even oscillating all by itself; no (RF) power-input needed! A microwave alternator, or Raman Maser. Such a device would be a Jim dandy high-power microwave weapon, so I don't think there may be much open literature on the concept.
Many years ago I read about a Russian rocket-pumped Maser. Now I can understand how firing a high-speed stream of highly-ionized plasma down a slow-wave structure can oscillate (like a traveling-wave tube). Rocket exhaust velocity must be faster than microwave group velocity, and you've got a Cerenkov Maser, or Shawyer's "generator mode".
So can you synthesize a motivating one-handed-clap sound of imbalanced group velocity? Electromagnetic propulsion theorist say YES! (Unlike ancient astronaut theorists, we don't always say YES! do we?)...
Conservation of angular momentum at the molecular, atomic and elementary level may also need to be taken into account.
David M
When dealing with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_angular_momentum_of_light, you could copy the turbo-compressor, using rotors and dispersive stators to "unwind" the topological charge of the helical radiation flux.
Alas, for a nuclear dispersive stator to unwind matter waves into radiation waves.
As much as I would like to know all there is to know about all these subjects I must admit my ignorance to some fields. I do find the suggestion of a resonating rotating helix intriguing but any extra shift in the wall moving one way would be countered by the back wall moving away, so suggesting no transfer of energy that I would be aware of. I do believe the magnetic field is incapable of rotating unless it is space time that rotates but it's just my belief on that matter based on some previous experiments.
I must admit a good portion of the lingo in what you suggest is beyond my current understanding (may change but I have limited time). Looking up patch resonators did yield something but I am currently as a loss on what they are exactly. I have had a fascination with invention and science since being a child, but must admit that with out building up from the basics, it's no more than gibberish to me. I would love to see space travel advance and for us use tools responsibly but must admit to history and peoples use for tools for violence. However, for a us to survive it must not allowed for societies structure to degrade into chaos. Generations of survival determines it will not be allowed for long before its stopped (some times even by societies collapse). Those who fight against it fight themselves. In that sense I am not too sorely afraid of the idea of introducing new technology that could potentially be used as weapons. A hammer can be used as a weapon. It all depends on the user. Rather with out those tools the results could be worse. All life could be lost in a cataclysm, us being all confined to a small ball but then again this small ball has seen its fair share of cataclysms already and here is life. Rather, lets let our imaginations run amok and unravel what we can while we have the time so the next generation has a foundation to build on. Let's be explicit so the next generation understands it for themselves and doesn't find it too hard to understand. Time is fleeting and each of us can only know so much. And knowing only so much, I must bow out when I am unclear what is exactly being suggested.
With out explicit elucidation on how one might readily pushing against the vacuum and my lack of experimental evidence I am reduced to speculation. I'm optimistic and hopeful but that alone will only get me started in considering possibilities.
Don't get me wrong. I find our search fascinating but I don't want to imply I know more than I do. -
#550 by fulygan4ik on 11 Jul, 2017 08:16
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1 - I live in Ukraine
"insider"
If there is any article about it or if you have any other information about this upcoming test, we would be glad for links that you can provide.
2 - I do not speak English
3 - translation with the help of "Google translator"
Until there are no links - all the information after the press conference ... if NASA refuses to cooperate referring to US state laws:
++ https: //prod.nais.nasa.gov/pub/pub_library/unSol-Prop.html
III. Submission
(d) Interagency Coordination
NASA does not transfer formal submissions to or receive similar submissions from other agencies, except as they may be related to an interagency funding arrangement. Unsolicited proposals submitted to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) are not considered as formal submissions to NASA. ++
Is engaged EMdrive exactly Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)
sorry for the poor translation - Google translator not to speak Russian in perfection
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#551 by mwvp on 11 Jul, 2017 08:22
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...
That brings to mind som e methods that dustinthewind might find of interest. What if you spin a helix, in a helical resonator? Or what if you spin patch resonators at different speeds at the apex and base? Or what if you spin birefringent dielectric spheres at the center of each mode of a multi-mode cavity at different speeds? Or what if you use magnet/electric tuned gyro-magnetic/electric materials at the center of the modes?
A large stored energy fraction, depending on the size of the propeller, is affected.
As much as I would like to know all there is to know about all these subjects I must admit my ignorance to some fields. I do find the suggestion of a resonating rotating helix intriguing but any extra shift in the wall moving one way would be countered by the back wall moving away, so suggesting no transfer of energy that I would be aware of. I do believe the magnetic field is incapable of rotating unless it is space time that rotates but it's just my belief on that matter based on some previous experiments.
...
I found a bunch of papers on orbital angular momenta awhile back, radio and optics, one detailing the rotational Doppler shift. I can dredge up the cite if you really want. The issue I expect to hear is the mess between near and far field, which I can't answer other than both would be affected, significantly. And stray mechanical vibrations, or electrically tuned material non-linearity would be brutal when the energy transduction margin is hertz/sub-hertz at microwave frequencies. Parts per billion. Good luck....
I must admit a good portion of the lingo in what you suggest is beyond my current understanding (may change but I have limited time). Looking up patch resonators did yield something but I am currently as a loss on what they are exactly. I have had a fascination with invention and science since being a child, but must admit that with out building up from the basics, it's no more than gibberish to me.
I gathered from your comment on plasma in the waveguide you might not be quite up to speed. Several times I lit up a plasma in an old microwave. It would destroy the cavity Q, and be an obvious event. It wouldn't happen at under a dozen or so watts.
Electromagnetics is pretty deep. I was building radios, and referring to the ARRL handbook since I was a kid. So as I progressed in the little math and physics I know, it wasn't too abstract. I think understanding basic radio technology would be of great benefit before studying relativity and quantum mechanics. Relativity, with Lorentz bending of space and time between inertial frames becomes obvious. Quantum mechanics is spooky quantized statistics of EM fields
I would love to see space travel advance and for us use tools responsibly but must admit to history and peoples use for tools for violence.
Ugly fact of life. I think, even when we (engineers) have built all the robots to do all the dirty work, when we have all the nuclear power we feel like having the robots supply, and all the raw materials the robots drag out of orbit, some tragically invidious so-and-so's will be urging their fellows to die for their privilege of putting their face on the coin of the realm, and regulating which guild gets to style hair and nails. Libido Dominandi won't go away; robots wont cry when you insult them. Consequently, it's prudent to be well-armed against those that are well armed, until the Good Lord returns, or we all have networked empathy neural implants.
With out explicit elucidation on how one might readily pushing against the vacuum and my lack of experimental evidence I am reduced to speculation.
Yes, it is marvelous and fantastic; swim through empty space waving a can of microwaves, or light. It's not the empty vacuum. The "vacuum" isn't a vacuum. It conducts matter and light. Matter and light waves carry momentum. When light is trapped in a bottle, it applies pressure. When the can accelerates, it affects the light, making it slosh around in traveling waves. Filter and exhaust the frequency components, and you change the can's momentum. In a way, its creating synthetic mass, or engineered matter.
In classical physics, matter and energy are concretes, time and space abstract notions. In modern physics, space-time is the only concrete, the "vacuum" is reality; it can manifest as matter or energy. Vacuum is a misnomer. Vacuum means void or empty. The vacuum has two (by the Standard Model upwards of 20 or so) very real, definite properties, electric permittivity and magnetic permeability. If a region of zero permittivity/permeability were to exist, it would reflect energy and matter.
A good starting point is the first chapter in Maken's book "Only Spacetime", and the Appendix. And researching Sagnac gyro, and Sagnac effect.
Free download @ http://onlyspacetime.com/ -
#552 by Rodal on 11 Jul, 2017 11:20
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THE EM DRIVE and CBS' show "Salvation" Season 1 2017
SALVATION is a suspense thriller that centers on Liam Cole, an MIT grad student, and Darius Tanz, a tech superstar, who bring Pentagon official Grace Barrows a staggering discovery – that an asteroid is just six months away from colliding with Earth.
Premieres Wednesday, July 12 (9:00-10:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network
http://boingboing.net/2017/07/10/would-you-kill-to-stop-an-aste.htmlQuoteLiz: Have you ever heard of the EmDrive, the electromagnetic drive?
Craig: If you go look it up, you'll be like, "Holy shit, this is unbelievable." It's going to change space travel if they can get it to work.
Liz: It's theoretical right now, but people claim that they've seen it work.
Craig: It's propulsion without fuel. It defies Newton's third law, which is why some people say it's impossible, but other people say, "Well, it works, we just don't know yet why it works." It's not very big. It uses electromagnets powered by tiny solar panels, and it produces a minuscule amount of thrust, like one Newton. But if you do this in space, you will be continuously accelerating forever. The speculation is you could be at the Moon in like four hours, and you could be at Mars in like four months. So this is unbelievable if they could make it work. Supposedly the Chinese are ready to try it in space now, and there have been experiments here on Earth.
Liz: NASA did a paper on it, so we've taken the EmDrive and that concept and our characters are advancing the technology.
Mark: We've been talking about the science in the show, but that's not really what it's about, is it?
Craig: We treat the science seriously, but it's really about the human endeavor to beat the asteroid, and not so much the nuts and bolts. In the end we're saying, "This is a very human side to science, and we must problem-solve at the highest level that humans can problem-solve if we're going to save the planet." We've spent a lot of time trying to make the science believable and realistic, and interesting, and fun, but mostly just very human.
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#553 by JasonAW3 on 11 Jul, 2017 17:55
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THE EM DRIVE and CBS' show "Salvation" Season 1 2017
You know, it'd probably take something like a probable ELE asteroid impact to get some serious backing behind this... -
#554 by fulygan4ik on 11 Jul, 2017 20:08
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Thank you for posting this. We have no means to verify your claims but you are not the first to come forward.
You so boldly stated ....
Are you ready to offer a design with a force of 100 Newton?
... but I can .... -
#555 by LowerAtmosphere on 11 Jul, 2017 20:55
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Definitely related to stress tensor. And it's some kind of "momentum dump" with magnetic coupling.
Repeating myself from above - but the group organizing phenomena escapes me. By standard statistical physics and E&M, there shouldn't be one.
Why all in such a given direction? What triggers the "cascade"? How do we express conservation of such?
And a thousand related questions. Perhaps simple classical mechanics can bound these, to hint more in the direction of more answers?
The cascade would be triggered by the realignment of magnetic field lines as the oscillating and rotating fields connect with weaker outer fields, driven by electron pressure as verified recently by Fox, Sciortino et al.*. Often multiple reconnections occur suddenly and simultaneously therefore changing the entire magnetic field in what I would dub a cascade, though this cascade entirely depends on the safety factor.
The safety factor is expressed as q = m/n where m and n are the toroidal and poloidal mode numbers. Remember: the reconnectivity of different charged regions depends on the ratio of toroidal to poloidal AND toroidal-toroidal, poloidal-poloidal modes in the mean electron free path since we are considering distinct boundaries and magnetic field regions with discrete average energy density values. This can be understood as two waveforms which, when resonating with each other, do not cancel out or construct but rather transfer electron pressure and therefore magnetic field strength and momentum from the more energetic region to the lesser energetic region. At the point of reconnection where there is an outflow from the current sheet, in fact, the inductive component of the E field peaks while the entire ExB field flattens in an almost inverse relationship which creates a small but not insignificant pressure tensor making this event anisotropic and not like brownian motion in a regular hot gas. This further has to do with the nature of the fields when reconnecting, as parallel in-plane E fields are electrostatically driven while the out-of-plane inductive component dominates in terms of field strength. This is why I would invest in researching, maybe using neutrinos or some other penetrative radiation as an imaging technique, to find whether there are periodically spaced out and occasionally cascading null points + E tubes (experimentally, Hamada 2010 found the instability region to be around 2-3 mean electron paths in length) representing regions where reconnections are occurring in the interior of the cavity.
While this may sound confusing it is quite a lot simpler if imagining the analogy of a twisted rope made from two strings unfurling due to tension. (This is why they are called 'flux ropes' or 'tubes' in the literature!) It will unwind from the point where it is wound tightest and, assuming the ends are tied fast, the center will gain a gap between the two strings which oppose each other. So, quite logically, do magnetic fields act due to the electron pressure and plasma potential no longer being constrained by sufficiently strong guide fields/other layers. Interesting to note here too is that Ji et al. (1995) found that the global helicity tends to be conserved while the total magnetic energy is dissipated, meaning that the system does not descend into chaos after reconnection and will instead charge up until the field lines shear in a specific way again. There are lots of analogies with rocks dropping in smoke, ropes, swirling water or cogs you could use to understand why there is group motion of particles in these fields but ultimately it serves one best to stick with the basic mathematics of push and pull, positive and negative.
Magnetic self-organization in the closed cavity is something I have argued for because of the walls. The walls are conductive and form a strong waveguide*** when excited, hence why it doesn't explode or blast radiation outward like MVVP's non-conductive and unpolished microwaves, or like happens in on the surface of the Sun. The boundary forces the periodic motion of massive particles above and beyond simply the eigenmodes caused by photons following resonant closed paths.
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This conversation snippet from MVVP and Dustinthewind discussing having a dynamically changing peak E-field and/or changing waveform is great:QuoteOnce again, consider the cavity energy magnitude, field amplitudes, and you'll find what you inject is trivial in the short run. In the long run, it's everything. BTW a continuous phase offset, if I understand, is an FM chirp. Phase modulation and frequency modulation are essentially the same, differing in application and implementation. Sort of like the difference between X-rays and gamma rays. Can have similar photons with similar energy, indistinguishable, but from natural or synthetic origin.
Chirped**** and pulsed waveforms could really clarify some theoretical questions such as whether it is the relative distribution of energy in the cavity which matters, or the reactionary force from constantly shifting momentum. I.e. is the EM Drive effect due to a more or less continuous force from pressure gradients + time lag, or is it the sawtooth-like periodic spring-like 'sloshing' as described earlier and expanded by Rodal and others?** The discreteness of thrust vs the continuity of thrust, taken together with the location of random vs periodic E-field null points, will help us eliminate certain theories if we invest in these research questions.
P.S. Fulygan4ik, please bring evidence not politics into this conversation please.
Update: Ignore the mention of neutrinos and exploding microwaves, that was a little too creative with new physics and not a result of proofreading. Will begin work on the changes in the Q factor to address MVVP and try to understand for myself what a drop in Q would look like.
* DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.118.125002 Sorry folks, not pushing my luck by sharing more copyrighted papers or screenshots thereof.
** Here too we could attempt, good luck, to find an MHD or experimental solution for the toroidal/poloidal modes of each field to find the ratios and predict null points/reconnection/flattening resistivity (u) profiles over time. Even if you do not subscribe to the cold plasma theory, you cannot deny the separated fields during resonance in any multipolar mode.
*** This waveguide is very complicated to fully understand due to quantum effects, magnetic dipoles, quasi-ions in the metallic lattice, evanescence/plasmonics/non-linearity of effects, different purities and interaction with the atmosphere, asymmetric heating and radiation and time arrows and gravity, asymmetric shape, seams with endcaps, and the changes of all these over time and input. This was not an exhaustive list of what the walls 'do' either, for that you'll need to read Thread 5-10 and have an elephant memory.
****Regarding the high pumping efficiency of chirped microwaves which some of you may find useful. Chirped-microwave assisted magnetization reversal. Wang and Wua, 2009. DOI: 10.1063/1.3121075
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#556 by fulygan4ik on 11 Jul, 2017 21:01
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...
But you won't, isn't it?
Are you ready to offer a design with a force of 100 Newton?
... but I can ....
If you talk about today - no
If NASA decides to redeem this technology - then everything will depend on the terms of the contract .. -
#557 by Monomorphic on 11 Jul, 2017 23:48
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I'm getting ready to test the 30W Spectrian linear class A RF amplifier. After discussions with the seller and running tests on a burner unit of his, we confirmed that these RF radio amps will function from ~11V to ~16V. Optimum is somewhere around 12.6 - 13, which is the nominal voltage of most 12V batteries. For each volt over 13V, power dissipation will increase 10W. This is due to additional dissipation in the high power FET used as a 12v regulator for the final and driver devices.
I'm using the cheap Chinese signal generator which has an output of -2.5dB. With the ~34dB gain expected from the amplifier, I should get ~31.5dB or ~1.4W. since I'm using a -40dB 5W attenuator in front of the spectrum analyser, I should measure ~-8.5dB. The Windfreak signal generator mounted on the torsional pendulum has more than enough output power (18dB) than what is needed (10dB) to drive the amp at full power.
I need to build the + 18 to +28v bias @ 50Ma, but that looks pretty simple. With any luck, I should soon have 10 times the RF power as before, but with only a 3A increase in power requirements.
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#558 by RotoSequence on 12 Jul, 2017 00:32
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I've never heard if people using neutrino's as an imaging technique since they are extremely hard to make and hard to interact with anything. Trillions go through you every second and probably none hit anything. Are you sure they didn't mean neutrons?
Quite possibly. The post said "neutrinos" so I ran with it.
The cascade would be triggered by the realignment of magnetic field lines as the oscillating and rotating fields connect with weaker outer fields, driven by electron pressure as verified recently by Fox, Sciortino et al.*.
Is reconnection relevant?
EmDrive does not appear to have plasmas - it's about an impressed resonant cavity of high intensity microwaves.
We've been futzing around with plasma arcing as a null hypothesis for a while.
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#559 by Augmentor on 12 Jul, 2017 00:43
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I've never heard if people using neutrino's as an imaging technique since they are extremely hard to make and hard to interact with anything. Trillions go through you every second and probably none hit anything. Are you sure they didn't mean neutrons?
Quite possibly. The post said "neutrinos" so I ran with it.The cascade would be triggered by the realignment of magnetic field lines as the oscillating and rotating fields connect with weaker outer fields, driven by electron pressure as verified recently by Fox, Sciortino et al.*.
Is reconnection relevant?
EmDrive does not appear to have plasmas - it's about an impressed resonant cavity of high intensity microwaves.
We've been futzing around with plasma arcing as a null hypothesis for a while.
To find out what is going on inside especially inhomogeneties, either turn the emDrive into a Schlieren photography setup using windows or even properly aligned small holes, or put a small camera inside sensitive to a variety of frequencies.
