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#380 by SeeShells on 22 Jun, 2017 14:10
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Things are interesting but not addressable. 10k reflections at 1ns travel time (typical ballpark frustum size in the Y direction) for the photon equates to a whooping 10 microseconds. I can bake a cake in that amount time
It is linear, so 100 g would equate to 1000 m/s. this would be 8kHz of Doppler (Doppler is still roughly linear this far from c) This is getting into the plausibly significant range, but only would would affect experimental results if you actually accelerated to 1 km/s. At this point, does it really matter if performance is limited to 100g acceleration? This is solving a non-problem.When I say g, I am talking about gravitational acceleration (about 10 m/s^2). The between 2 and 100g you refer to would make more sense as grams of force.
Sorry I was not precise enough, thank you for pointing this out. I was citing Shawyer's IAC 2013 paper and was talking about g as a gravitational acceleration, not grams. So when Shawyer talks about "high-acceleration devices" he indeed talks about accelerations of 2g (~20 m.s-2) to 100g (~1000 m.s-2). These are not practical devices of course, just theoretical ones. Do your numbers show any problems with a Q of 109 using those values with a cavity of say, 30 cm long?
I tried with the 2nd order doppler effect for equations:
Assuming the mass of the photon at one end is twice at the other in a cavity
if v_2 > 0 then the regular Doppler shift appears to dwarf the other terms if m_2 very large like 1kg.
c = 3E8 = speed of light m/s
V = 1 = some starting velocity in m/s or use v_2 = 0 to eliminate the normal Doppler effect
f = 2.45E9 = microwave frequency
h = 6.626E-34 = planks constant
m_2 = 9E-31 kg; ~ mass of electron
n = 1000000; = number of reflections, I just multiply it all by n (not shown)
if m_2 is very small like the mass of an electron and you expect 10k reflections then things get interesting. The change in frequency could almost be 1khz which brings up a question. At what point do we assume the collision is with the cavity rather than the electron?
or seriously control the shifting frequency with a variety of techniques.
On another item. I loved your post, what a keen perception you have.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42978.msg1692527#msg1692527
My Very Best,
Shell -
#381 by Notsosureofit on 22 Jun, 2017 15:55
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FYI:
General properties of entropy
Alfred Wehrl
Rev. Mod. Phys. 50, 221 (1978) - Published 1 April 1978
It is rather paradoxical that, although entropy is one of the most important quantities in physics, its main properties are rarely listed in the usual textbooks on statistical mechanics. In this paper we try to fill this gap by discussing these properties, as, for instance, invariance, additivity, concavity, subadditivity, strong subadditivity, continuity, etc., in detail, with reference to their implications in statistical mechanics. In addition, we consider related concepts such as relative entropy, skew entropy, dynamical entropy, etc. Taking into account that statistical mechanics deals with large, essentially infinite systems, we finally will get a glimpse of systems with infinitely many degrees of freedom. -
#382 by meberbs on 22 Jun, 2017 17:40
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You missed the part about people having to know that it is possible. When I look at you website I see neither demonstrations that it works, nor any compelling reason to think it should work. As best as I can tell your idea is basically that you don't understand gyroscopes, so they must be magic antigravity devices. This is a surprisingly common train of logic on the internet despite being completely wrong. Physicists and engineers (including me) generally do understand gyroscopes, and recognize they have nothing to do with antigravity.Also see Harry Harrison's 1970 SF novel "The Daleth Effect" about the development of a "space drive" and the futility of trying to keep a physics breakthrough secret. The lesson was, once everyone knows that such a device is possible, somebody will quickly figure out how to make one, or improve on it, no matter how much you try to keep the details secret. In the book, the secret space drive technology is reverse-engineered by the HONDA motor company, resulting in flying cars.
" ... futility of trying to keep a physics breakthrough secret.
somebody will quickly figure out how to make one, or improve on it,
no matter how much you try to keep the details secret. "
I wish I had this problem!
So far, nobody wants to steal my physics breakthrough space drive technology.
It has been futile ....
If you want I could try to explain gyroscopes to you, but this is probably not the right place. (PM or maybe the Q&A section, under the rational that gyroscopes are important for spacecraft control) -
#383 by WarpTech on 22 Jun, 2017 18:05
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Click left fields link to see previous quotes:
That was dustinthewind I think.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.msg1338339.msg#1338339
...
WarpTech would later bring to my attention that radiation passing through the dielectric should create an opposing force. While I admit this may be possible I have a suspicion that such an array may generate something else other than just light as it should provide a force greater than photon propulsion, because it should surpass a phased array, having magnetic forces with with charge separation.
Would it work? I have no guarantee, just a suspicion. Does the EM drive work on such an effect? I can't tell you that for sure either. I don't know how the EM drive would do positive work one one side, as opposed to the other by just introducing radiation.
To be clear. Even if the momentum of photons inside the dielectric were much greater than it is in vacuum. When those photons exit the back-end of the device, they will return to their free-space momentum value. Any excess momentum must be transferred to the dielectric, and that "push" is in the wrong direction -- toward the rear.
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#384 by birchoff on 22 Jun, 2017 18:14
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Also see Harry Harrison's 1970 SF novel "The Daleth Effect" about the development of a "space drive" and the futility of trying to keep a physics breakthrough secret. The lesson was, once everyone knows that such a device is possible, somebody will quickly figure out how to make one, or improve on it, no matter how much you try to keep the details secret. In the book, the secret space drive technology is reverse-engineered by the Honda motor company, resulting in flying cars.
that depends on how you go about monetizing the discovery. For example, if you immediately patented and licensed the technology to current players. that does two things first it disincentivizes the licensee from spending the money on reverse engineering. While at the same time increasing the community dependent on reverse engineered knockoffs from being allowed into the marketplace. -
#385 by SeeShells on 22 Jun, 2017 19:58
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It seems the mod moms have nuked a block of posts, including my update and summary. I don't have time right now to rewrite it all but I will tonight or tomorrow morning.
My Very Best,
Shell -
#386 by qraal on 22 Jun, 2017 20:36
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Interesting and maybe relevant bit of science news:
A 100-year-old physics problem has been solved
and paper...
Breaking Lorentz reciprocity to overcome the time-bandwidth limit in physics and engineering
Seems the resonance limit on Q isn't inviolable. -
#387 by WarpTech on 22 Jun, 2017 21:18
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Interesting and maybe relevant bit of science news:
A 100-year-old physics problem has been solved
and paper...
Breaking Lorentz reciprocity to overcome the time-bandwidth limit in physics and engineering
Seems the resonance limit on Q isn't inviolable.
Anyone have access to the full paper?
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#388 by Notsosureofit on 22 Jun, 2017 21:31
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" As a system becomes more asymmetric in its transport properties, the degree to which the limit can be surpassed becomes greater. "
Note the inclusion of asymmetric transport properties. These could be a property of the wall materials. -
#389 by TheTraveller on 22 Jun, 2017 21:35
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The cavity photons, once emitted by the coupler / antenna, immediately start to lose energy to wall eddy current heating. As they do that their wavelength permanently ref shifts as their frequency drops.
Here is an interesting table based on an individual 2.45GHz photon losing 63.2% of it's energy every TC and red shifting inside the cavity as attached.
Of course their lost eddy current heating energy is remitted as much higher freq and energy IR photons.
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#390 by Rodal on 23 Jun, 2017 01:48
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" As a system becomes more asymmetric in its transport properties, the degree to which the limit can be surpassed becomes greater. "
Note the inclusion of asymmetric transport properties. These could be a property of the wall materials.
Also the information (entropy) of things in nature (black holes, the universe) can be shown to be on the exterior surface as a hologram of everything inside the volume. The maximum possible entropy depends on the boundary area instead of the volume. From what we learned from information theory, the information content in the volume of the system cannot exceed that of the description on the boundary. So thinking about information theory (entropy) the walls are most important: and this works for the EM Drive: all the losses are on the copper surface -
#391 by Notsosureofit on 23 Jun, 2017 02:04
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I prefer "description of the boundary". And, yes the electrical activity of the wall is "holographic" to the fields in the volume. I might add that the boundary goes shape independent as the number of states goes to infinity.
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#392 by spupeng7 on 23 Jun, 2017 02:06
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meberbs,
(...)
You can't just ignore the existence of spatial dimensions. They obviously exist,
(...)
please forgive this extraction from your argument but SR exposes a flaw in the notion of orthogonal spatial dimensions. You may define them but they cannot retain their orthogonality across a dilation of time.
Distance and direction remain relevant descriptors but Euclidian space is redundant no matter how well Rutherford defines it. -
#393 by meberbs on 23 Jun, 2017 02:25
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The cavity photons, once emitted by the coupler / antenna, immediately start to lose energy to wall eddy current heating. As they do that their wavelength permanently ref shifts as their frequency drops.
In case there are any bystanders curious, the flaw in the above is that it ignores that the decrease in energy over time would be from individual photons being absorbed. If the above were true it would obviously show up in various experiments such as a 2 port measurement tracking the energy stored in the cavity. Also, trivially, if you went into a dark room and shined a blue light on a black (but not 100% absorptive) piece of paper the above logic implies that the reflected light would be red.
Here is an interesting table based on an individual 2.45GHz photon losing 63.2% of it's energy every TC and red shifting inside the cavity as attached.
Of course their lost eddy current heating energy is remitted as much higher freq and energy IR photons.
We are in complete agreement here. I did not used any modifiers like Euclidean or orthogonal, or even linear. The dimensions in general are curved, non-orthogonal, and mixed in with the fourth (temporal) dimension. All of the dimensions exist, 3 spatial and 1 temporal, and you need all of them to properly describe the motions of objects (which is the essence of physics in a way). There is no sensible way to boil 4 dimensions down to just 1.
meberbs,
(...)
You can't just ignore the existence of spatial dimensions. They obviously exist,
(...)
please forgive this extraction from your argument but SR exposes a flaw in the notion of orthogonal spatial dimensions. You may define them but they cannot retain their orthogonality across a dilation of time.
Distance and direction remain relevant descriptors but Euclidian space is redundant no matter how well Rutherford defines it. -
#394 by LowerAtmosphere on 23 Jun, 2017 10:28
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Interesting and maybe relevant bit of science news:
A 100-year-old physics problem has been solved
and paper...
Breaking Lorentz reciprocity to overcome the time-bandwidth limit in physics and engineering
Seems the resonance limit on Q isn't inviolable.
Attached is a snippet from the paper. All credit where it is due.
Some discussion on the paper...
So wave packets may occasionally propagate in one direction and simply gain amplitude when hitting a boundary with magnetic fields blocking back-propagation. The entire information of the wave is conserved at the boundary. The authors used a combination of a Si dielectric, InSb semiconductor and Ag conductor. This heterostructure had a "static"* magnetic field applied in the -y direction. This would be akin to increasing the electron pressure on the outermost boundary. In fact it is the E field (see orthogonality in diagram) which provides the directional force to prevent the wave packet from escaping its resonant oscillation at the point of incidence. The wave becomes sandwiched between two e fields (electron seas/phonon soup) until it decays. Supposing the power to the repulsive B field is turned off, then with back scattering and back propagation it can of course assume a longer closed path again.
Here's yet another analogy then of how I currently view the cavity in light of this renewed confirmation of the discrete and unidirectional nature of photonic propagation given the repulsive (TE directional aligned, remember B does not repel E but instead overlaps) E field. The inside of the cavity is like a plasma onion. Each electron sheet has photons bouncing (until absorption, dissipative losses or propagation (tunneling/however) through the wall) along paths not too dissimilar from that of a vacuum filled cavity. As each electron is excited, it in turn can emit a photon or collide to continue the propagation of the energy.
At certain points, however, due to magnetohydrodynamic shearing and torque from the time evolution of the resonant fields, and of course some splatter and chaos, specific areas will experience magnetic reconnection and transfer energy directionally. Before the reconnection occurs, individual photons, carrying information as a wave packet, will resonate between layers. This buffer of sorts will release a cascade of energy down to the weaker e field/onion layer upon reconnection and create more asymmetry further ensuring energy propagation towards the walls. The more excited the medium gets the stronger the E field (OBVIOUSLY) in each of the modal peaks and the greater the difference and therefore the statistical likelihood of prevention of back propagation between layers. Wave packets do not ignore the internal electrons, and internal electrons do not ignore the wave packets. Each area of high energy density will act just like any other ExB field in relation to light. This paper just confirms that fields can concentrate an arbitrary wave packet into a dense volume of space and therefore increases the entire system's capacity for energy storage. Instead of Q being a limitation based on the entire wave path, we understand that Q is determined by any number of arbitrary temporary resonances the packet enters during its lifetime (before leaving the system). When will we accept that the same physical laws governing plasmonic propagation in metals also govern plasmonic propagation in air just on a different time and energy magnitude?
Two topics which I brushed on earlier come to mind: plasmonics in zero dimensional metals/nanowires and (de)coherency of the system. Upon trapping the light it is actually made temporarily coherent as the path is closed. In theory, decohering a large amount of the photons stuck between sheets/wall (the wall is just a denser sheet) by no longer introducing new waves into the cavity, will lead to a reactionary force in the exact opposite direction of the relaxation events and the pressure gradient because the gradient is time dependent and forms a sequence of discrete quanta which repel weaker (younger) fields. If the thrust is caused from wall to wall reactions and largely ignores internal atmosphere, this reactionary force should be close to or equal to the instantaneous forward force. If the thrust is caused by electron/ionic pressures, then this reactionary force should be less than the forward force due to vortices, eddies, evanescence and more. The only issue is whether it decoheres instantaneously or over time and whether it has a tangible effect on system acceleration: a question of how important the gain medium actually is. If the gain medium is a cold plasma then we can begin to consider the different layers as discrete. Plasmonics in nanowires are so interesting because they also show asymmetry and pseudo-momentum naturally. Waves which resonate along such a structure naturally shift the mass and charge to one end of the structure, these resonances and oscillations seem eerily similar to field vectors and electrical currents inside a cavity.
I leave you with a quote for some of the other theorists from the paper:QuoteThe small increase in the total optical losses that we observed in our simulations for this latter case is
because the slope of the band (i.e., the pulse’s group velocity) reduces with increasing B0, leading to higher overall optical losses(27**)
*As proven before, true static fields do not exist! Minor oscillations are unavoidable, anything else is a mathematical flight of fancy.
** 27. R. W. Boyd, J. Opt. Soc. Am. B 28, A38–A44 (2011)
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#395 by Bob012345 on 23 Jun, 2017 17:26
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Imagine space access to be just as mundane as air flight is today.
A trip to the moon, to visit you son or daughter who's working there as an astro-geologist.
A 2week flight to mars to conclude a business deal
A Jupiter flyby honeymoon trip...
Why would I need a flying car when my grandchildren could be standing on Europa (the moon) ?
With a pressurized and confortable flying car, at home, you could walk down your backyard, open the door, sit down, and ask Siri to go directly to the Moon, Mars or Europa. No need to go to a spaceport, register and wait for a shuttle.
But even if such trips were technologically feasible at a personal level, probably every country regulation would prevent anybody to travel outside their airspace and even more the boundary of Earth atmosphere. Not as long as countries of Earth still undergo political, economical, religious and resource-based conflicts, with territory colonization, oil wars, terror attacks and massive migration problems. I can't imagine this era to happen for humans of Earth, sadly.
You are not going to be allowed to fly over houses or neighborhoods and FAA rules will apply. Flying cars will have to be flown from airports of some kind, not just anywhere to anywhere. Airspace and it's uses will be tightly controlled. -
#396 by TheTraveller on 23 Jun, 2017 17:30
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The cavity photons, once emitted by the coupler / antenna, immediately start to lose energy to wall eddy current heating. As they do that their wavelength permanently ref shifts as their frequency drops.
In case there are any bystanders curious, the flaw in the above is that it ignores that the decrease in energy over time would be from individual photons being absorbed. If the above were true it would obviously show up in various experiments such as a 2 port measurement tracking the energy stored in the cavity. Also, trivially, if you went into a dark room and shined a blue light on a black (but not 100% absorptive) piece of paper the above logic implies that the reflected light would be red.
Here is an interesting table based on an individual 2.45GHz photon losing 63.2% of it's energy every TC and red shifting inside the cavity as attached.
Of course their lost eddy current heating energy is remitted as much higher freq and energy IR photons.
When cavity photons are absorbed by the electrons on surface metallic atoms, they are also reemitted back into the cavity The process is called radiation pressure. Any lost energy and/or momentum transfer results in the reemittted photon being red shifted to reflects it's lower level of energy.
A photon can not lose energy and have the same wavelength or frequency. As it loses energy, it red shifts. Photon wavelength = hc / photon energy.
Once a cavity is filled, the per cycle J input from the Rf source equals the per cycle photon J loss due to all loss sources. When the Rf input into the cavity is stopped, the stored photon energy decays over 5 x TC and the photon wavelengths increase.
The predominant photon energy loss in a cavity is from the photon's H fields inducing eddy current flow into the metallic walls and end plates which results in ohmic heating. The energy to generate the heating is sourced from the photon's energy. Photon absord and emit events are not required to generate skin depth eddy currents and related heating.
Don't believe shinning a blue light on a black piece of paper has anything to do with the above, especially as there is no eddy current heating involved. However if the event occurred in space and the black paper gained momentum and energy from the blue light, the reemitted light would be very slighlty red shifted to reflect the lost momentum and energy.
Radiation pressure = (2 * E) / c
The 2 represents 2 momentum and energy transfer, from photon to mass, events. 1st for the absord event and 2nd for the emit event. -
#397 by Bob012345 on 23 Jun, 2017 17:44
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Interesting and maybe relevant bit of science news:
A 100-year-old physics problem has been solved
and paper...
Breaking Lorentz reciprocity to overcome the time-bandwidth limit in physics and engineering
Seems the resonance limit on Q isn't inviolable.
Attached is a snippet from the paper. All credit where it is due.
Some discussion on the paper...
So wave packets may occasionally propagate in one direction and simply gain amplitude when hitting a boundary with magnetic fields blocking back-propagation....
Is this implying what I think it is, that EMDrive type cavities might be designed to resonate in a very wide frequency range and thus not have to chase the narrow band for resonance? -
#398 by tchernik on 23 Jun, 2017 18:40
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Is this implying what I think it is, that EMDrive type cavities might be designed to resonate in a very wide frequency range and thus not have to chase the narrow band for resonance?
In the remote case this proves to work as Roger Shawyer says, yes, it would be heavily regulated.
As it should, given the potential uses as a weapon of any vehicle with enough kinetic energy.
But in this case all evidence seems to point towards more modest thrusts in the milli Newton range, if anything at all.
That level of thrust, if confirmed, would be mostly of use for space applications, with no impact for Earth based transportation. -
#399 by flux_capacitor on 23 Jun, 2017 19:43
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These experiments were done at atmospheric pressure and should be done in vacuum. My understanding is that others who have done it in vacuum have not seen the effect.
As for me too, the BB effect was a case closed since the 1990s. But I am happy we can discuss here some peculiar points.
Contrary to the belief, experiments have also been done in a vacuum, but maybe it was not high enough (10-6 torr) and a plasma was still flowing between electrodes? Another thing: if the Biefeld-Brown effect is just electrohydrodynamic in nature (ionic wind), can someone explain why a measurable force is still detected when those asymmetric capacitors are put inside a closed metallic box immersed in insulating oil?
This kind of test had been conducted by Townsend Brown himself, as well as Takaaki Musha on behalf of Honda Motor Co. who detected up to 2 grams of change on the balance with 8kVAC and 18KVDC currents (Musha's paper"Explanation of dynamical Biefeld-Brown effect from the standpoint of ZPF field" published in JBIS in 2008 is attached below as long as a schematic diagram of his experiment).
Info seen after this post of Quantum Gravity in the other topic.
Were there major flaws in Brown and Musha's experiments? EMI/HV interference with the setup? Ionic wind in the air around the whole setup?
or seriously control the shifting frequency with a variety of techniques.
