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#3540 by TheTraveller on 07 Jun, 2018 13:49
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Drill the small diameter E probe access hole in the centre of the big end plate. Should be no E field there, if excited in TE01x mode as it should be a 1/2 guide wave null zone, and min / no reduction in Q. If there is a strong E field as the E field probe is inserted in the small hole in the centre of the big end plate, well this is not TE01x mode.
I am going to go down through the small end about half radius out. If I insert the probe all the way down, I should be able to detect three distinct lobes. I don't want to scar up the large end-plate as it is harder to replace.
Jamie,
Here is how to make an E field probe:
Drill a small hole into the centre of the big end plate.
Obtain a short section of thin, very stiff and straight GHz rated coax.
Put an SMA male connector on one end.
At the other end expose a small length, say 1mm of the inner wire beyond the shield.
Connect the SMA end of the coax to a 40dB attenuator. May need more or less but start with 40dB.
Connect the other end of the attenuator to a freq scanner.
Excite the cavity at the freq you wish to test for the excited mode. Best to use as low power as possible to avoid overloading the freq scanner input. Which is why you need to use an attenuator on the input to the freq scanner.
Insert the exposed end of the coax E probe in through the small hole in the big end plate.
While moving the probe tip around inside the cavity, use the scanner to record the E field intensity and variations.
Repeating the above, mapping the E field lobes of the excited mode.
For TE013 there should be 3 very defined circular E field lobes as per the TE013 simulations.
Anything else and the excited mode is not TE013.
You do need a freq generator to drive the cavity coupler and another freq scanner to measure the output of the E field probe.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That WILL NOT Generate Significate Force -
#3541 by Monomorphic on 07 Jun, 2018 13:56
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You do need a freq generator to drive the cavity coupler and another freq scanner to measure the output of the E field probe.
Yes, I know how it is done and have everything I need to do it. Of course, once I go through the trouble and verify that it is indeed TE013, as the simulations show, I'm sure you'll find another goal post for me and others to jump over...
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#3542 by Monomorphic on 07 Jun, 2018 14:08
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Please post the Feko mode plots showing the end plate and small end side wall eddy current plots to confirm the cavities are not in cutoff.
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#3543 by Jim Davis on 07 Jun, 2018 14:11
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The EmDrive NEEDS TO BE FREE to accelerate.
This doesn't make much sense. Even if an EmDrive is bolted down it is "free" to accelerate the entire planet to some extent. The a will be very small and the m will be very large but the F should be the same. How would an EmDrive know whether it is "free" or not? -
#3544 by TheTraveller on 07 Jun, 2018 14:16
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You do need a freq generator to drive the cavity coupler and another freq scanner to measure the output of the E field probe.
Yes, I know how it is done and have everything I need to do it. Of course, once I go through the trouble and verify that it is indeed TE013, as the simulations show, I'm sure you'll find another goal post for me and others to jump over...
Jamie,
Thanks for that. The plots look fine. But as I have learned not to trust plots when exciting real world cavities, please do the E field probe work to confirm you are exciting TE01x and not the same freq degenerative TM11x mode or some other mode. NEVER assume the mode you are exciting is the one you desire. CONFIRM it.
BTW as Roger advises a good cavity design is one in which the undesired modes have been designed to be as far away from the desired mode as possible. Yes that is possible using the Excel spreadsheet model Roger developed and I copied. I can very quickly calc the resonate freq for over 96 possible modes in less than 1 minute. Try that with Feko or COMSOL or HFSS.
Then you need to address being able to excite dual travelling waves so their superposition produces the standing waves the plots show.
Like any complex recipe, there are many ways to get the bake wrong and the cake is not what is desired.
These steps are not hoops you need to jump over. They are real world engineering build steps that need to be achieved to bake the cake your desire.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That WILL NOT Generate Significate Force
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#3545 by TheTraveller on 07 Jun, 2018 14:26
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The EmDrive NEEDS TO BE FREE to accelerate.
This doesn't make much sense. Even if an EmDrive is bolted down it is "free" to accelerate the entire planet to some extent. The a will be very small and the m will be very large but the F should be the same. How would an EmDrive know whether it is "free" or not?
Hi Jim,
Successful acceleration of an EmDrive and associated mass causes differental doppler freq shifts at each end of the cavity. There is a min required acceleration rate to lock in what Roger calls "Motor Mode". Trying to acceleate the mass of the planet with a satellite rated EmDrive thruster will not achieve it.
So yes there is a max mass vs EmDrive force that will trigger "Motor Mode".
Think of an electric motor trying to rotate the mass of the Earth. All that will happen in reality is the motor will get VERY HOT.
So an EmDrive force generating capability needs to be in an acceptable range so the EmDrive can xfer cavity Joules of stored energy into accelerative KE Joules of energy. In doing so the cavity Q drops as the KE Joule xfer adds to the cavity eddy current and coupler loss per cycle.
EmDrives that do not accelerate mass, ei Work done on the mass = zero, such as those that levitate mass get very hot as ALL the cavity stored energy exits as eddy current generated thermal heating.
Either way CofE is conserved.
I will come back to this discussion but now is not the time to engage it.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That WILL NOT Generate Significate Force
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#3546 by Monomorphic on 07 Jun, 2018 14:35
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Successful acceleration of an EmDrive and associated mass causes differental doppler freq shits at each end of the cavity. There is a min required acceleration rate to lock in what Roger calls "Motor Mode". Trying to acceleate the mass of the planet with a satellite rated EmDrive thruster will not achieve it.
Perhaps you meant freq "shifts" and not "shits?"
What is the minimum required acceleration to lock in the "motor mode?" It should be easy enough to generate that acceleration with the calibration coil. But how do you expect to generate the correct acceleration? Just let it flap in the wind and hope? -
#3547 by TheTraveller on 07 Jun, 2018 14:49
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Successful acceleration of an EmDrive and associated mass causes differental doppler freq shits at each end of the cavity. There is a min required acceleration rate to lock in what Roger calls "Motor Mode". Trying to acceleate the mass of the planet with a satellite rated EmDrive thruster will not achieve it.
Perhaps you meant freq "shifts" and not "shits?"
What is the minimum required acceleration to lock in the "motor mode?" It should be easy enough to generate that acceleration with the calibration coil. But how do you expect to generate the correct acceleration? Just let it flap in the wind and hope?
Jamie,
Oops. Edited. Thanks.
The effect will clearly be demonstrated as will both CofE and CofM.
EmDrive needs no new physics. Just the application of a microwave effect discovered by Cullen in 1950 that generates asymmetric forces in a tapered resonant cavitity. With that effect, resonant photons can be harvested for their momentum and energy. As a result their wavelenegth increase as they transfer momentum and Joules of energy to accelerating mass.
Those that knee jerk rejected Roger's work will soon learn their mistake.
Those that respected Roger's work and replicated his invention will soon be rewarded with a open door to much better replications and force generation.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That WILL NOT Generate Significate Force -
#3548 by Monomorphic on 07 Jun, 2018 14:54
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Those that respected Roger's work and replicated his invention will soon be rewarded with a open door to much better replications and force generation.
As I wrote, it should be easy enough to generate a range of accelerations using the calibration coil. Do you know what the minimum required acceleration is to lock in the "motor mode" as stated by Roger Shawyer? If that is so critical, then we need a range to test at. It would be helpful if we had some idea of the magnitude of acceleration required. -
#3549 by meberbs on 07 Jun, 2018 15:10
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EmDrives that do not accelerate mass, ei Work done on the mass = zero, such as those that levitate mass get very hot as ALL the cavity stored energy exits as eddy current generated thermal heating.
No. You have been shown the math multiple times. Kinetic energy change is dependent on the reference frame you measure it from. Thermal and electrical energy are not.* They can never, ever add up in all reference frames at the same time, unless there is another object you are exchanging momentum and energy with. (Photons trapped in the cavity are part of the system and not "another object.")
Either way CofE is conserved.
*Some relativistic effects exist near the speed of light, but those same effects make the kinetic energy change even faster.
Anyway, see the question above about what is this "minimum acceleration." You have never given a number so 1*10^-100 m/s^2 seems a reasonable guess for now.EmDrive needs no new physics. Just the application of a microwave effect discovered by Cullen in 1950 that generates asymmetric forces in a tapered resonant cavitity. With that effect, resonant photons can be harvested for their momentum and energy. As a result their wavelenegth increase as they transfer momentum and Joules of energy to accelerating mass.
No. Cullen did not "discover" the effect. Cullen experimentally demonstrated the effect, which is derived directly from Maxwell's equations. Those same equations that Cullen verified say that the emDrive produces no net force.Those that knee jerk rejected Roger's work will soon learn their mistake.
No, even if you build a flying car out of an emDrive, Shawyer's work is still wrong. His math is simply self-inconsistent. He doesn't even predict the direction of force correctly, and flips the sign randomly to get the result he wants. -
#3550 by Bob Woods on 07 Jun, 2018 15:19
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AmpPwr?Nomenclature suggestion: Push To Talk is a little cryptic, describing an action rather than a source.
I'm open to suggestions on better wording. It is a logic level enable pin that requires grounding to enable power to the amplifier, which can also be used for a PTT/KEY control. -
#3551 by Bob Woods on 07 Jun, 2018 20:54
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Off topic but NASA Mars Curiosity reported more organic molecules on Mars along with a repeatable seasonable variation in methane coinciding with Martian summer.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nasa-mars-announcement-curiosity-rover-organic-matter-building-blocks-possible-life-today/ -
#3552 by rq3 on 07 Jun, 2018 21:09
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Nomenclature suggestion: Push To Talk is a little cryptic, describing an action rather than a source.
I'm open to suggestions on better wording. It is a logic level enable pin that requires grounding to enable power to the amplifier, which can also be used for a PTT/KEY control.
How about "Engage"? Think of Jean-Luc Picard on the Enterprise.
Seriously, though. Many devices and integrated circuits have enable pins. If the logic is "positive" (logic high makes the device do something), they are almost universally called "Enable"; sometimes followed with a clarifier like "EnableCLK" for enable clock (as an example). If the logic is "negative" (like yours, or a standard PTT switch, where logic low [ground] makes the device do something), they are almost universally called "Enable Bar", or "Enable NOT", usually labeled with the word "Enable" with a line, or "bar" OVER it, signifying negation.
Me, I prefer "Engage". Patrick Stewart seems to be a fun loving guy. He may even be willing to make an MP3 for you with him saying "Engage". -
#3553 by spupeng7 on 08 Jun, 2018 03:10
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TT,There is not a nice way to say this. The EmDrive NEEDS TO BE FREE to accelerate. Any test rig that does not allow the EmDrive to freely accelerate is a waste of time, no matter how well it is built. F = m * a. No a or acceleration and no F or force. Understand?
You do realize a torsional pendulum is no different from your rotary test rig? Torsional pendulums are free to accelerate, as evidenced by the thermal effects seen here lately. If the Emdrive needs to accelerate to work, then why didn't the effect kick in when it began accelerating from the thermal effects?
Jamie,
Any EmDrive thruster needs to be excited in a E probe verified TE01x mode, have a good side wall coupler design that generates bi directional travelling waves plus needs to have a small end that is not in cutoff.
The Jakub results are thermal and their frustum was a bad build. It operated in cutoff, coupler design and placement can't generate bidirectional travelling waves, those that designed and built it ignored the TE01x 0.82 cutoff rule and visual data that showed it was cutoff.
As I stated I'll not argue the point. My results will reveal reality.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That Will Not Generate Significate Force
I say again, we are in a gravitational field so it is accelerating. -
#3554 by OnlyMe on 08 Jun, 2018 04:00
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.....
Successful acceleration of an EmDrive and associated mass causes differental doppler freq shifts at each end of the cavity. There is a min required acceleration rate to lock in what Roger calls "Motor Mode". Trying to acceleate the mass of the planet with a satellite rated EmDrive thruster will not achieve it.
.....
“Motor mode”, unless I am mistaken.., is a reference to a constant or continuous acceleration. You are never going to enter “motor mode” on any test stand being discussed. If the drive does work, the drive might enter “motor mode” for a short period in a “KISS thruster” design..., at least until the tension on the wire/fishing line equals the thrust. But then the test bed design of the KISS thruster would not easily provide the same kind of data that Jamie’s test bed should.
The point is “motor mode” is a reference to conditions required for a drive to produce continuous acceleration. Jamie’s test bed is designed to determine if an EmDrive or Mach effect thruster for that matter, will produce any clearly useable thrust, at all.
If the “motor mode” model is correct, Jamie’s tests should return data indicating an initial acceleration, but not a continuous thrust against the balance.
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#3555 by TheTraveller on 08 Jun, 2018 07:04
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It will be interesting reading the comments after everybody sees the KISS thruster going round and round on the KISS rotary test rig.
Until then no more comments on theory from me. Time now to get ready to fabricate the frustum. Lots of photos will be posted of the process.
Frustum fab is currently on hold awaiting the delivery of the Silver Epoxy and the 2 Cu sheets.
Next in the delivery Q is the miniVNA tiny+ that is needed to tune the coupler.
Then need the delivery of the 100W Rf amp and 22650 Lithium Ion rechargeable batteries and battery holders.
After which the demo system can be put together and it gets interesting.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That WILL NOT Generate Significate Force -
#3556 by Star One on 08 Jun, 2018 07:09
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Two things I noted is that the pendulum appears a little over-damped. That is easy to fix by lowering the damping fluid reservoir. And second that the 6.8uN of thrust appears to be mostly related to the temperature of the 30W RF output GaAs FET...
we haven't heard from Rodal in a while. he usually gives good advice about damping
When did he last post on here, it was this year wasn’t it? -
#3557 by TheTraveller on 08 Jun, 2018 09:09
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2 sheets of 0.55mm x 450mm x 900mm 110 Cu have arrived.
When the buffing compounds and polishing wheels arrive, the mirror polishing of one sheet and both end plates will start.
Goal is to obtain a mirror like polish with no visible scratches.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows and For EmDrive DIYers To Stop Wasting Time and Money On Builds and Test Rigs That WILL NOT Generate Significate Force
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#3558 by Monomorphic on 08 Jun, 2018 10:43
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When did he last post on here, it was this year wasn’t it?
I saw Rodal like someone's comment a week ago, so i'm pretty sure he's lurking.
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#3559 by Monomorphic on 08 Jun, 2018 10:45
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Until then no more comments on theory from me. Time now to get ready to fabricate the frustum. Lots of photos will be posted of the process.
Phil,
Before you stop commenting on theory, please address my question about the acceleration required. Do you know what the minimum required acceleration is to lock in the "motor mode" as stated by Roger Shawyer?
