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#3480 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 01:05
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In regard to 1/4 excitation wave stub antennas, it seems Paul March did use one to excite his cavity. For some reason he did not continue with that antenna design. Suspect he went with the loop to excite TM modes to use the dielectric.
Will be very pleased if my KISS thruster build can achieve the 50K Q that Paul achieved.
Good to see Paul mentioning Roger.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3481 by oyzw on 05 Jun, 2018 02:29
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In regard to 1/4 excitation wave stub antennas, it seems Paul March did use one to excite his cavity. For some reason he did not continue with that antenna design. Suspect he went with the loop to excite TM modes to use the dielectric.
I simulated the antenna at this location through HFSS, and the coupling effect is very good. S11 is lower than -25 and TE013 is modal.
Will be very pleased if my KISS thruster build can achieve the 50K Q that Paul achieved.
Good to see Paul mentioning Roger.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3482 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 02:54
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In regard to 1/4 excitation wave stub antennas, it seems Paul March did use one to excite his cavity. For some reason he did not continue with that antenna design. Suspect he went with the loop to excite TM modes to use the dielectric.
I simulated the antenna at this location through HFSS, and the coupling effect is very good. S11 is lower than -25 and TE013 is modal.
Will be very pleased if my KISS thruster build can achieve the 50K Q that Paul achieved.
Good to see Paul mentioning Roger.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
Hi Oyzw,
Yes a -25dB rtn loss or a VSWR of 1.1:1 is a very good real world result.
If a Rf amp outputted 100W, 99.77W would be the forward power that would enter the cavity and 0.23W would be reflected. Would accept that any time.
BTW just so everyone is clear, this was a very simple to make stub antenna that delivered a very good real world coupling result. So no need for fancy loop antenna designs to get a really good coupling result. Just use a side wall mounted stub antenna as the KISS thruster will use. More on that later.
However do not put a lot of Rf watts into that antenna as it will probably tune into a match / melted blob at the far end. As both EW and Shell discovered.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3483 by meberbs on 05 Jun, 2018 03:20
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And I walked through it to find you insult me, and spew meaningless gibberish. I considered your points to the extent that that they meant anything at all, and found that none of them led to any interesting conclusions........
I did try to open a door way for you.You might consider you position when you see the KISS thruster going round and round on the KISS rotary test rig. Trust me IT WILL HAPPEN.
No one trusts you anymore because you have been making this same claim for years, and have broken your promise every time. Worse, you are now asking for blind faith, contrary to all of the evidence from all of the other experimenters on this forum and elsewhere who have shown that thrust levels are orders of magnitude below your baseless expectations. Your repeated religious appeal to this blind faith is out of place in this physics forum, and at this point is just an insult to the intelligence of the readers here.
So how about you apply some critical thinking yourself, and actually respond to the content of my post (or the posts of others who have pointed out flaws in your statements), or at least apologize for some of your insults.
In the mean time, stop claiming you know what the results of your experiments will be before you run them. That means no more "Believe me it works !!!11!1" posts until you have some cold, hard data. -
#3484 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 03:32
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And I walked through it to find you insult me, and spew meaningless gibberish. I considered your points to the extent that that they meant anything at all, and found that none of them led to any interesting conclusions........
I did try to open a door way for you.You might consider you position when you see the KISS thruster going round and round on the KISS rotary test rig. Trust me IT WILL HAPPEN.
No one trusts you anymore because you have been making this same claim for years, and have broken your promise every time. Worse, you are now asking for blind faith, contrary to all of the evidence from all of the other experimenters on this forum and elsewhere who have shown that thrust levels are orders of magnitude below your baseless expectations. Your repeated religious appeal to this blind faith is out of place in this physics forum, and at this point is just an insult to the intelligence of the readers here.
So how about you apply some critical thinking yourself, and actually respond to the content of my post (or the posts of others who have pointed out flaws in your statements), or at least apologize for some of your insults.
In the mean time, stop claiming you know what the results of your experiments will be before you run them. That means no more "Believe me it works !!!11!1" posts until you have some cold, hard data.
The cold hard data is being presented. Step by step. So everybody who cares can be engaged in the process.
And your comment after you see all the openly shared steps and techniques to build the KISS thruster and Rf system as it rotates round and round will be?
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3485 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 03:53
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In regard to 1/4 excitation wave stub antennas, it seems Paul March did use one to excite his cavity. For some reason he did not continue with that antenna design. Suspect he went with the loop to excite TM modes to use the dielectric.
I simulated the antenna at this location through HFSS, and the coupling effect is very good. S11 is lower than -25 and TE013 is modal.
Will be very pleased if my KISS thruster build can achieve the 50K Q that Paul achieved.
Good to see Paul mentioning Roger.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
Hi Oyzw,
Please, if you can, do a HFSS simulation for the KISS cavity and share your resonance and Q results.
Bd: 300mm
Sd: 180mm
Len: 280mm
Mode: TE013
Thanks
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3486 by PotomacNeuron on 05 Jun, 2018 04:29
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The discussion keeps squeezing into my mind Alphonse Daudet's short novel, "The Siege of Berlin". I am familiar with it because it was in my middle school literature course (translated version). It's English translation is online, http://www.bartleby.com/313/4/1.html
The question is who is Colonel Jouve. Surely not me, because I am mostly in the "watching" mode. Could it be Mr. Shawyer or Meberbs, theTraveller, or even crackpot_killer?
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#3487 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 04:49
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The discussion keeps squeezing into my mind Alphonse Daudet's short novel, "The Siege of Berlin". I am familiar with it because it was in my middle school literature course (translated version). It's English translation is online, http://www.bartleby.com/313/4/1.html
The question is who is Colonel Jouve. Surely not me, because I am mostly in the "watching" mode. Could it be Mr. Shawyer or Meberbs, theTraveller, or even crackpot_killer?
Hi PM,
Glad to see you. Did you watch the video of Emmett Brown's board and fishing line bridle rotary test rig and observer it is stable?
Very clear acceleration even from 0.2g of force. Suggest it will accelerate as well with 0.1g of force.
BTW costs for the KISS thruster project so far are approaching $1,500.
14g of Silver Epoxy
miniVNA tiny+
Yonlit 100W Rf amp
2 x sheets of Cu
Various SMA fittings & coax
are paid for and awaiting delivery.
Not an exercise to be undertaken without a knowledge of success.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3488 by PotomacNeuron on 05 Jun, 2018 04:57
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The discussion keeps squeezing into my mind Alphonse Daudet's short novel, "The Siege of Berlin". I am familiar with it because it was in my middle school literature course (translated version). It's English translation is online, http://www.bartleby.com/313/4/1.html
The question is who is Colonel Jouve. Surely not me, because I am mostly in the "watching" mode. Could it be Mr. Shawyer or Meberbs, theTraveller, or even crackpot_killer?
Hi PM,
Glad to see you. Did you watch the video of Emmett Brown's board and fishing line bridle rotary test rig and observer it is stable?
Very clear acceleration even from 0.2g of force. Suggest it will accelerate as well with 0.1g of force.
BTW costs for the KISS thruster project so far are approaching $1,500.
14g of Silver Epoxy
miniVNA tiny+
Yonlit 100W Rf amp
2 x sheets of Cu
Various SMA fittings & coax
are paid for and awaiting delivery.
Not an exercise to be undertaken without a knowledge of success.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
Yes, I saw his posts long ago. His balance was stable, and could move if a small force (probably 0.2g) was applied. I remembered that he did not find thrust, though. -
#3489 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 05:10
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Yes, I saw his posts long ago. His balance was stable, and could move if a small force (probably 0.2g) was applied. I remembered that he did not find thrust, though.
Correct Emmett did not measure any force generation.
Trying to drive a high Q cavity with a magnetron is not a good match. In both the Experimental and Demonstrator EmDrives, Roger had a high Q tuned circuit at the small end of the cavity, which no one replicated.
As will be shown, single freq Rf excitation is the only way but the coupler needs to be at a specific distance from the big end plate, a specific length and angle to the side wall.
Like baking a cake, get one element incorrect and the result may not be that expected. Which is why going over each step in the build process and why doing that step that way is important for replicators.
Roger did define some of the build requirements but not as many as I will share:
http://www.emdrive.com/GeneralPrinciples.pdf
To be clear I'm not upset with the critics as they have never had really clear experimental data to base opinion on. That is going to change and is why I'm engaging this process.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3490 by meberbs on 05 Jun, 2018 06:29
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The cold hard data is being presented. Step by step. So everybody who cares can be engaged in the process.
No, you have not shown data, you have shown images of an incomplete setup. That is not data.And your comment after you see all the openly shared steps and techniques to build the KISS thruster and Rf system as it rotates round and round will be?
I will answer that question under 2 conditions:*
1. You answer a question first: What will you say if you turn it on and the drive just sits there, maybe moves slightly, from some effect that could easily be thermal, magnetic, or a random air current? (And no cop-out, don't say "that means it was built wrong," this is after you do everything you are planning on to get a nice clean resonance, with high return loss, etc.)
2. You rephrase the question to use a conditional like "if" rather than insisting that you know the future.
As a bonus, you could try being polite and apologizing for your insults, and for dismissing every fact presented to you as "just an opinion." Hint: saying "I'm not upset with the critics as they have never had really clear experimental data to base opinion on." is an insult to all of the other experimenters in this thread who have provided useful data, as well as the other experimenters out there such as Tajmar. You are saying all of their data is useless. And it is a fact, not opinion, that the data from them indicates that you should not expect 10s of mN worth of force. None of it was clear if there was any force at all except error sources, but it was clear that any force present is smaller than you are expecting. Also, if you "aren't upset" you really should apologize for the insults.
* I am being generous with these conditions, at this point you probably owe me a couple dozen answers, I have lost count how many times you have ignored simple questions from me, and the apology should not be optional. -
#3491 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 07:30
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The hoop rings have arrived.
Very important they are epoxy bounded to the outer sufrace of the frustum before it is removed from the internal flower pot form. They ensure the frustum stays round after the internal form is pulled out and gives the 0.55mm thick frustum side walls additional ridigity and strength.
Idea is from Dave (RfMwGuy). I have found them to work very well.
Not aware of any EmDrive builder, other than Dave and myself, that has used them.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3492 by PotomacNeuron on 05 Jun, 2018 13:32
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...
Idea is from Dave (RfMwGuy). I have found them to work very well.
Not aware of any EmDrive builder, other than Dave and myself, that has used them.
...
Both Shawyer and NASA used rings.
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#3493 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 13:52
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Both Shawyer and NASA used rings.
Hi PN,
They had to cut their rings from a copper sheet. Not easy to manually cut the inner curve, let alone to keep it circular, it is copper after all, and a big waste of expensive copper sheeet. Which is probably why Paul only used 1.
The steel hoop rings are commercially available, easy to fit, strong, come is sizes that allow many to be fitted and ensure a very strong, rigid and round frustum.
As far as I know only Dave and myself have used multiple easy to obtain and fit hoop rings. Plus the hoop rings fit the design and construction of a KISS thruster.
Yet to be revealed is the KISS thruster will NOT have the typical end flanges. Hoop rings will provide the dimension stability that is normally done by the end flanges, which are not really needed, a pain to cut out & fit and get then exactly parallel.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3494 by ThatOtherGuy on 05 Jun, 2018 15:23
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My experiment is ready to go. I purchased LabView and have used the sample code to communicate with the relay board. I need to work on getting the relays on timers in LabView and then I should be able to run multiple identical experiments and average the results.
As for LabView, Jamie; I'm not sure I already posted the following (or maybe you already know it); if that isn't the case, then, since you're at "measuring stuff"
maybe you'll be interested in a critter called "red pitaya", it was born as a kickstarter project but it's now in production and I suspect it may be useful for your purposes; just check out the details ;-)
[edit]
For further infos, please see this too
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#3495 by francesco nicoli on 05 Jun, 2018 15:54
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nice picture, no data, and my patience for sawyer's flying cars has long expired.
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#3496 by OnlyMe on 05 Jun, 2018 16:00
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The hoop rings have arrived.
Very important they are epoxy bounded to the outer sufrace of the frustum before it is removed from the internal flower pot form. They ensure the frustum stays round after the internal form is pulled out and gives the 0.55mm thick frustum side walls additional ridigity and strength.
Idea is from Dave (RfMwGuy). I have found them to work very well.
Not aware of any EmDrive builder, other than Dave and myself, that has used them.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
What material are these “hoop” rings made of? Non conductive I hope!
Though I have no real world experience with microwaves, it would seem that from other real world experience conductive hoop rings around and in contact, with the exterior surface of your very thin copper cone, would alter the electromagnetic potential of the copper in the vicinity of the rings... and add possible resonance complications?... No?
This kind of issue may be one source of the variation in results of the publicly shared experiments, where it seems every build is just a bit different that the orthers. Seemingly small design variations may contribute as much to results as the more obvious...
...... I am personally really interested in seeing Jamie’s results and comparison of the data from his printed frustum and (oyzw’s?) solid copper build. Testing and comparing the data from these two builds, on the test bed Jamie has spent so much time refining, should be interesting. Maybe if the initial data warrants it, testing a printed build that matches the dimensions of the solid copper frustum...
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#3497 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 16:05
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nice picture, no data, and my patience for sawyer's flying cars has long expired.
No flying cars from me.
Just a simple to make KISS thruster, test rig and Rf system that will go round & round.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3498 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 16:14
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The hoop rings have arrived.
Very important they are epoxy bounded to the outer sufrace of the frustum before it is removed from the internal flower pot form. They ensure the frustum stays round after the internal form is pulled out and gives the 0.55mm thick frustum side walls additional ridigity and strength.
Idea is from Dave (RfMwGuy). I have found them to work very well.
Not aware of any EmDrive builder, other than Dave and myself, that has used them.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
What material are these “hoop” rings made of? Non conductive I hope!
Though I have no real world experience with microwaves, it would seem that from other real world experience conductive hoop rings around and in contact, with the exterior surface of your very thin copper cone, would alter the electromagnetic potential of the copper in the vicinity of the rings... and add possible resonance complications?... No?
This kind of issue may be one source of the variation in results of the publicly shared experiments, where it seems every build is just a bit different that the orthers. Seemingly small design variations may contribute as much to results as the more obvious...
...... I am personally really interested in seeing Jamie’s results and comparison of the data from his printed frustum and (oyzw’s?) solid copper build. Testing and comparing the data from these two builds, on the test bed Jamie has spent so much time refining, should be interesting. Maybe if the initial data warrants it, testing a printed build that matches the dimensions of the solid copper frustum...
The skin depth of copper at 2.5GHz is around 6um. The copper is 550um thick. The hoop rings should have no effect on whar is happening inside the cavity.
While the hoop rings are steel, the copper they are sitting on is much lower resistance.
I plan on sending Jamie and Tajmar a complete cavity & Rf system to test. So no need for either to replicate.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3499 by Johnnyhinbos on 05 Jun, 2018 16:38
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I'd like to give a bit of perspective from someone who reads this thread but doesn't have the background to make any significant contributions to it...
Generally speaking, this thread is captivating and sparks the imagination of the unknown and unexplained. There are people here who are actually working towards making something happen - or proving the physics simply don't work in the way many hoped. Either way, it's helping inform our understanding of our universe in a general sense, and could potentially revolutionizing propulsion systems and the utility they might provide. It's astounding.
However, this thread is also periodically full of vitriol and negativity. I get it - people are frustrated with talk and no concrete results. But honestly - you have to be bigger than that. Because when people start attacking the person and not the idea then it becomes trite, tedious, and childish.
To be honest, I've read many fairly personal attacks on The Traveller and he's maintained a very professional demeanor throughout. I don't think I would have been so composed.
Whether you agree with people or not - and no matter how impatient or frustrated you get - please read what you write with the eyes of a neutral observer before you post. It's incredibly frustrating to have to slog through all the useless posts to get to the ones that have substance.
As an aside - how long does it take to develop a chemical rocket engine completely from scratch? How long has the BE-4 been in development, and that's based on an existing framework and body of knowledge. How long does it take to design and build adequate test infrastructure? And what is the budget sunk into such things? Bezos is sinking a cool billion dollars into BO every year, and I doubt he even has to build a vacuum chamber. Yes - I know it's not an exact comparison, but the point remains.
So please - on behalf of all the hundreds (thousands?) of people reading this forum, try to work a little harder on being excellent to each other, and raise above - be the bigger person. It'll be a better thread because of it.
maybe you'll be interested in a critter called "