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#3460 by Monomorphic on 04 Jun, 2018 02:07
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As I will show, being able to tune the coupler, in length, position and angle is critical to obtaining optimal coupler efficiency and a very low VSWR without needing the use of an external 3 pot tuner.
Phil, this was shown several months ago. You will have a hard time with that SMA bulkhead fitting. I used those at first, but found it was too tedious loosening, screwing, and tightening those nuts.
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#3461 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 02:52
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For those that doubt the stability of the rotary test rig under construction and/or the ability of 1g to rotate such a rig here is info from those that went before. As can be seen the bridle based rotary test rig is very stable and easily rotates with 0.2g of force applied.Quote
Some material details if interested:
- Hanging support line - dacron fishing tow line - 135lb test
- Base beam - 3/4" plywood - 200cm x 24cm
- Aluminum (3003H14) frustum
- 26.6cm inner plate spacing (cone .032")
- 16.0cm diam small endplate .032"
- 28.0cm diam large endplate .050"
10mN or 1g:
2mN or 0.2g
Build images attached.
To be clear this magnetron based build never showed any force generation. However the rotary test rig
"Emmett Brown"
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=49812
developed was the basis for the KISS rotary test rig I'm building.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3462 by Monomorphic on 04 Jun, 2018 02:57
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Goal is to use silver epoxy to do all the joining, including the frustum side wall seam. Selected silver epoxy totally cures in 15 min at 65c or the gentle heat from a hair dryer.
I was able to use an acetylene torch to silver solder the nuts to the copper wall. You have to be very careful and only apply a very small amount of solder so that the threads are still usable.
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#3463 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 05:28
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Looks like extending the frustum toward the small end, reducing the small end diameter to 2mm above cutoff and exciting TE014 improves the Df and Q enough to lift the predicted force to around 3g.
Predicted resonance is still above the ISM band so maybe a few more tweeks to drop it back a bit.
Some advise Roger shared with me a long time ago. Here I address those that give Roger enough credibility to expend time and money to try to replicate his invention, yet totally discount his advise on the use of COMSOL and other resonance simulation tools.QuoteHi Phil
Your proposals sound fine to me.
Note that the Q you achieve will also be dependent on how well you tune and match the impedance of the input antenna. We have used probe, loop and waveguide iris plates as input circuits. All have their own problems, but you should first calculate the wave impedance of the cavity at the input position. Standard text book equations work, as they always do. You can then design your chosen input circuit to match the wave impedance at the cavity resonant frequency.
All successful EmDrive thrusters that I know of have incorporated a tuning element of some sort at the input.
Also no successful design used COMSOL without correction, as the software does not seem to cope with conditions close to cut-off, as NASA should have realised.
[highlights my add]
Best regards
Roger
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3464 by meberbs on 04 Jun, 2018 06:33
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Some advise Roger shared with me a long time ago. Here I address those that give Roger enough credibility to expend time and money to try to replicate his invention, yet totally discount his advise on the use of COMSOL and other resonance simulation tools.
People are attempting to replicate experiments like those at Eagleworks, not Shawyer at this point.
COMSOL and other programs use the "standard textbook equations" that Shawyer says work. The quote you provided simply demonstrates that he doesn't know how to use these tools, and it is certainly possibly to get bad answers from them if you don't know what you are doing.
FEA tools have no problem with cutoff conditions, nor does this pose a problem for the exact solutions for spherical endplates. Science is based on evidence, and there is no evidence for your or Shawyer's claims of problems with these tools. -
#3465 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 08:13
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Some advise Roger shared with me a long time ago. Here I address those that give Roger enough credibility to expend time and money to try to replicate his invention, yet totally discount his advise on the use of COMSOL and other resonance simulation tools.
People are attempting to replicate experiments like those at Eagleworks, not Shawyer at this point.
COMSOL and other programs use the "standard textbook equations" that Shawyer says work. The quote you provided simply demonstrates that he doesn't know how to use these tools, and it is certainly possibly to get bad answers from them if you don't know what you are doing.
FEA tools have no problem with cutoff conditions, nor does this pose a problem for the exact solutions for spherical endplates. Science is based on evidence, and there is no evidence for your or Shawyer's claims of problems with these tools.
Do expect, after seeing the KISS thruster going round and round on the KISS rotary test rig, people will stop efforts trying to replicate the EW cavity and switch to replicating a cavity, coupler tuning system and Rf system that does generate very significant Force.
A Force that does Work to Move mass a Distance or in simple terms to accelerate mass with it gaining both momentum and KE from the resonant cavity photons.
Those cavity photon's wavelengths slowly increase after each inelastic impact and emission event where momentum and energy are transferred from photon to mass.
Then others can start debate on the theory as to why it does what it does.
Trust me it can and will be shown that EmDrive acceleration of mass complies with both CofM and CofE. Do understand your opinion is different to that but is probably based on experimental data that you don't consider as significant. An opinion shared with many.
My goal is to change that opinion and present very credible experimental data that can not be ignored or denied. Plus a public set of DIY instructions and easy to obtain Bill Of Materials that just about anyone can follow to build a working EmDrive.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3466 by X_RaY on 04 Jun, 2018 08:50
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We did calculations based on the dimensions TT stated before he switched to others:Bd: 300mm
Sd: 180mm
Len: 280mm
Checked with Roger.
He calcs 2.2608Ghz in TE013.
COMSOL TE013 2.2548 GHz vs Shawyer TE013 2.2608 Ghz
Difference of +6 MHz for COMSOL vs Shawyer's private method! Not too bad
So finally Kenjee found resonance with TE013 mode for the shape TT provided.
Seems Monomorphic and X_RaY didn't find TE013 as their sweeps were restricted to a slightly higher range out of reach (2.4–2.5 GHz).
According to Shawyer's controversial "cutoff rule" the small end diameter is large enough for such frequency, i.e. it would operate above the threshold below which thrust would collapse. Besides, according to Shawyer's guidelines if I made no mistake: Df = 0.64, loaded Q = 60k, predicted thrust @ 100W = 38 mNFreq is outside the ISM S Band, so need to work on the dimension sets that the form can deliver. Can increase freq by reducing length but doing that increases the small end diameter, which causes the Df to drop, which drops the generated force.
This frequency is still microwaves. What is the problem of running outside the ISM S Band? Especially as solid-state RF power generators can produce any frequency?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42978.msg1826510#msg1826510
Bd: 280mm
Sd: 150mm
Len: 308mm
Material: 1 oz copper PCB flat end plates, 0.5mm thick frustum
Mode: TE013
Freq: 2.45GHz
Df: 0.813
Ql: 22k
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42978.msg1827133#msg1827133
Bd: 300mm
Sd: 180mm
Len: 280mm
Mode: TE013
Freq: 2.282GHz
Cutoff: 2.031GHz
CufOff headroom: 251MHz
Qu: 48.6K
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#3467 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 09:51
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Decided to go forward with the following dimensions:
Bd: 300mm
Sd: 180mm
Len: 280mm
OK the TE013 resonance from both Roger and Kenjee agree, However it is outside the ISM band. But for a 1st inhouse build it will do.
The cutoff issue can lay dormant, not the time yet to fight that fight, until such time as I reduce the small end enough for the 2 resonance calculations to fall out of sync. Which means those doing replications in Unis and Corp business can use COMSOL, Feko and such to do their resonance calcs and see they are close enough to move forward with their replication effort.
From the video I linked it is very clear that 2mN or 0.2g can cause more than enough rotary action to convince the critics. Looks like even 1mN or 0.1g will do the trick.
10mN or 1g:
2mN or 0.2g
So no sense in trying to optimise the dimensions to achieve 3g when 0.1g will do and will not engage a "CutOff War" of words and inject doubt into replicators minds.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3468 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 11:02
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OK KISS thruster dimensions are locked and loaded.
Bd: 300mm
Sd: 180mm
Len: 280mm
Time to get 2 sheets of 0.55mm x 450mm x 900mm soft 101 Cu, give one a high polish, scribe the curves and start cutting copper. Buying 2 sheets as will build TWO fully operational KISS thruster so to compare performance.
Will post photos of the process.
BTW inches in the image of the frustum template should be mm.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
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#3469 by Kenjee on 04 Jun, 2018 12:05
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@Monomorphic
If you have time check out DIY solution for Schlieren photography. It was something that was talked about earlier.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Schlieren-Imaging-How-to-see-air-flow/
I still think that airflow aspect is overlooked. -
#3470 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 12:34
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@Monomorphic
If you have time check out DIY solution for Schlieren photography. It was something that was talked about earlier.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Schlieren-Imaging-How-to-see-air-flow/
I still think that airflow aspect is overlooked.
Hi Kenjee,
Yes I agree. My rotary tests will include a session with a smoke generator so the effect of the rising waste heat can be clearly observed.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3471 by Monomorphic on 04 Jun, 2018 12:51
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If you have time check out DIY solution for Schlieren photography. It was something that was talked about earlier.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Schlieren-Imaging-How-to-see-air-flow/
I still think that airflow aspect is overlooked.
Agreed, which is why everything was covered in insulation, so there can't be any airflow. Natural convection is the #1 source of mechanical noise when testing in air. -
#3472 by meberbs on 04 Jun, 2018 14:39
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Do expect, after seeing the KISS thruster going round and round on the KISS rotary test rig, people will stop efforts trying to replicate the EW cavity and switch to replicating a cavity, coupler tuning system and Rf system that does generate very significant Force.
You have yet to provide a singal thing that is special about your build to make it produce orders of magnitude more force than anyone else has produced.A Force that does Work to Move mass a Distance or in simple terms to accelerate mass with it gaining both momentum and KE from the resonant cavity photons.
What you just stated is a "theory" on how it works. Specifically an incorrect one that has been demonstrated nonsensical repeatedly.
Those cavity photon's wavelengths slowly increase after each inelastic impact and emission event where momentum and energy are transferred from photon to mass.
Then others can start debate on the theory as to why it does what it does.Trust me it can and will be shown that EmDrive acceleration of mass complies with both CofM and CofE.
That sentence I believe, but I also am certain you don't know what the words you used mean. If the emDrive obeys conservation of momentum, that means it is useless. You just described the drive working by transferring momentum between the photons and walls of the cavity. Since the photons get their momentum from the antenna attached to the cavity when they are initially emitted, and don't have anything else to interact with but the cavity walls, conservation of momentum means that the drive moves nowhere.Do understand your opinion is different to that but is probably based on experimental data that you don't consider as significant. An opinion shared with many.
No, what I just stated is a fact, nit an opinion. It is the definition of the words involved, and is just as much of a fact as 1+1=2. Calling it an "opinion" is just an insult, so stop. Also, the only experimental data I reject is from Shawyer because he has proven that he doesn't understand the definition of the word force, so none of his measurements are trustworthy, and flaws in his methods have been pointed out many times. The little outside review he allowed found multiple flaws. You however reject every bit of data that keeps showing force no better than the noise or known errors, a result that gets stays the same even as better experiments keep reducing error sources. Accusing me of rejecting data while you are ignoring the actual data is another insult.My goal is to change that opinion and present very credible experimental data that can not be ignored or denied. Plus a public set of DIY instructions and easy to obtain Bill Of Materials that just about anyone can follow to build a working EmDrive.
A more achievable, and more scientific goal is "to clearly demonstrate whether or not the emDrive works." Your goal is unscientific because you are assuming that it works without evidence, and this will just lead you to ignore flaws in your experiments due to confirmation bias. -
#3473 by TheTraveller on 04 Jun, 2018 15:36
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A more achievable, and more scientific goal is "to clearly demonstrate whether or not the emDrive works." Your goal is unscientific because you are assuming that it works without evidence, and this will just lead you to ignore flaws in your experiments due to confirmation bias.
I know the EmDrive works. I'm building the KISS thruster based on years of experience. When has anyone before shared details about how to design and tune a coupler so to eliminate the need for an external 3 pot tuner? The idea to track freq based on lowest VSWR was mine. I shared it here and to EW. And I will clearly demonstrate to the world that the EmDrive does work as claimed.
What flaws can there be when the battery powered EmDrive rotates round and round? Point the small end CW and it rotates CW. Point the small end CCW and it rotates CCW. Point the small end In or Out and it does not rotate.
You have been a great critic and denier.
Time now to work out how the EmDrive works and why it does not violate either CofM and CofE. Think about resonant photons slowly transferring some of their momentum and energy to mass and then watching as their wavelengths slowly lengthen. Think about what that would do to the resonant nature of the photons in the cavity and how the slowly increasing wavelength will alter cavity dynamics.
A few questions to ask yourself:
1) Will the VSWR alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
2) Will the coupler impedance alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
3) Will the Q alter during acceleration vs pre acceleration?
4) Will the KE gain of the accelerating mass become another per cycle loss on cavity energy?
5) Will the resonant photons increase their wavelength during acceleration but not pre acceleration?
I could add more but that is enough to hopefully start you thinking down a new pathway.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3474 by RonM on 04 Jun, 2018 16:00
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A more achievable, and more scientific goal is "to clearly demonstrate whether or not the emDrive works." Your goal is unscientific because you are assuming that it works without evidence, and this will just lead you to ignore flaws in your experiments due to confirmation bias.
I know the EmDrive works. I'm building the KISS thruster based on years of experience. When has anyone before shared details about how to design and tune a coupler so to eliminate the need for an external 3 pot tuner? The idea to track freq based on lowest VSWR was mine. I shared it here and to EW. And I will clearly demonstrate to the world that the EmDrive does work as claimed.
What flaws can there be when the battery powered EmDrive rotates round and round? Point the small end CW and it rotates CW. Point the small end CCW and it rotates CCW. Point the small end In or Out and it does not rotate.
You have been a great critic and denier.
Time now to work out how the EmDrive works and why it does not violate either CofM and CofE. Think about resonant photons slowly transferring some of their momentum and energy to mass and then watching as their wavelengths slowly lengthen. Think about what that would do to the resonant nature of the photons in the cavity and how the slowly increasing wavelength will alter cavity dynamics.
A few questions to ask yourself:
1) Will the VSWR alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
2) Will the coupler impedance alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
3) Will the Q alter during acceleration vs pre acceleration?
4) Will the KE gain of the accelerating mass become another per cycle loss on cavity energy?
5) Will the resonant photons increase their wavelength during acceleration but not pre acceleration?
I could add more but that is enough to hopefully start you thinking down a new pathway.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
For years you have been saying you know the EM drive works, but you have not shown any data from your own experiments. As far as anyone can tell, you have never built and tested an EM drive. Blind faith is not how science works. Build your KISS drive, runs some experiments, and show us data to prove your claims. -
#3475 by meberbs on 04 Jun, 2018 16:55
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You have been a great critic and denier.
Calling me a "denier" is both an insult and a lie. See my previous post for explanation of why it is a lie.Time now to work out how the EmDrive works and why it does not violate either CofM and CofE.
It is long past time for you to learn what conservation of momentum means. See my previous post.Think about resonant photons slowly transferring some of their momentum and energy to mass and then watching as their wavelengths slowly lengthen. Think about what that would do to the resonant nature of the photons in the cavity and how the slowly increasing wavelength will alter cavity dynamics.
I discussed photon momentum in my last post, how about you think about what I wrote.1) Will the VSWR alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
No to all, acceleration will have no measurable impact on cavity resonant properties when you consider the speed of light, cavity length and magnitude of acceleration. "pre-acceleration" doesn't even mean anything anyway, since either it produces a force which you can measure when the cavity is being held in place, or it doesn't produce a force and doesn't accelerate.
2) Will the coupler impedance alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
3) Will the Q alter during acceleration vs pre acceleration?4) Will the KE gain of the accelerating mass become another per cycle loss on cavity energy?
The relationship between photon energy and momentum is a constant proportionality. Even ignoring that the photons get their momentum from the cavity to begin with, the most momentum they can transfer is E/c, which is just a photon rocket. If you want, you can work through all of the details, including how in a fixed reference frame, if the cavity is moving, reflections from one end transfer momentum and energy from the cavity to the photons, while reflections from the other end do the opposite, and when you include that any changes in the photon momentum in between are from sidewall interactions, everything balances. One of my first posts on this forum went through some of the math if you need a starting point.5) Will the resonant photons increase their wavelength during acceleration but not pre acceleration?
Pre-acceleration doesn't mean anything. Your so called "wavelength increase" is just the pattern formed from photons effectively bouncing off the sidewalls and travelling at different angles. This mode shape has no dependence on acceleration for the relevant speed, size, and acceleration as I said above.I could add more but that is enough to hopefully start you thinking down a new pathway.
I answered your questions, though there was nothing new that I haven't thought about or discussed before in them. You have been repeatedly asked multiple questions by me and others that you have refused to answer. You have no business talking about questions for thought and "new pathways" when you refuse to even think about simple questions such as "which direction does something move when you bounce a ball off of it?" -
#3476 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 00:35
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For years you have been saying you know the EM drive works, but you have not shown any data from your own experiments. As far as anyone can tell, you have never built and tested an EM drive. Blind faith is not how science works. Build your KISS drive, runs some experiments, and show us data to prove your claims.
Did explain why that happened.
I have clearly started the process to build and demo a KISS thruster. At each step of the process photos will be provided plus plans and materials used.
Now that Kenjee's simulation and Roger's / my calculations agree on the resonance freq and mode, the next step is to cut out the Cu sheet and form it into a frustum using the flower pot internal form and 4 hoop rings plus a bit of silver expoy.
You see the big goal is to enable just about anyone to build and test a working EmDrive. The step by step fully exposed / nothing hidden process I have engaged here is part of that pathway.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3477 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 00:39
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.......
I did try to open a door way for you.
You might consider you position when you see the KISS thruster going round and round on the KISS rotary test rig. Trust me IT WILL HAPPEN.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows -
#3478 by oyzw on 05 Jun, 2018 00:43
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It may be that he signed a contract with a company and it is not easy to publish his experimental setup and test data.A more achievable, and more scientific goal is "to clearly demonstrate whether or not the emDrive works." Your goal is unscientific because you are assuming that it works without evidence, and this will just lead you to ignore flaws in your experiments due to confirmation bias.
I know the EmDrive works. I'm building the KISS thruster based on years of experience. When has anyone before shared details about how to design and tune a coupler so to eliminate the need for an external 3 pot tuner? The idea to track freq based on lowest VSWR was mine. I shared it here and to EW. And I will clearly demonstrate to the world that the EmDrive does work as claimed.
What flaws can there be when the battery powered EmDrive rotates round and round? Point the small end CW and it rotates CW. Point the small end CCW and it rotates CCW. Point the small end In or Out and it does not rotate.
You have been a great critic and denier.
Time now to work out how the EmDrive works and why it does not violate either CofM and CofE. Think about resonant photons slowly transferring some of their momentum and energy to mass and then watching as their wavelengths slowly lengthen. Think about what that would do to the resonant nature of the photons in the cavity and how the slowly increasing wavelength will alter cavity dynamics.
A few questions to ask yourself:
1) Will the VSWR alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
2) Will the coupler impedance alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
3) Will the Q alter during acceleration vs pre acceleration?
4) Will the KE gain of the accelerating mass become another per cycle loss on cavity energy?
5) Will the resonant photons increase their wavelength during acceleration but not pre acceleration?
I could add more but that is enough to hopefully start you thinking down a new pathway.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
For years you have been saying you know the EM drive works, but you have not shown any data from your own experiments. As far as anyone can tell, you have never built and tested an EM drive. Blind faith is not how science works. Build your KISS drive, runs some experiments, and show us data to prove your claims. -
#3479 by TheTraveller on 05 Jun, 2018 00:49
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It may be that he signed a contract with a company and it is not easy to publish his experimental setup and test data.A more achievable, and more scientific goal is "to clearly demonstrate whether or not the emDrive works." Your goal is unscientific because you are assuming that it works without evidence, and this will just lead you to ignore flaws in your experiments due to confirmation bias.
I know the EmDrive works. I'm building the KISS thruster based on years of experience. When has anyone before shared details about how to design and tune a coupler so to eliminate the need for an external 3 pot tuner? The idea to track freq based on lowest VSWR was mine. I shared it here and to EW. And I will clearly demonstrate to the world that the EmDrive does work as claimed.
What flaws can there be when the battery powered EmDrive rotates round and round? Point the small end CW and it rotates CW. Point the small end CCW and it rotates CCW. Point the small end In or Out and it does not rotate.
You have been a great critic and denier.
Time now to work out how the EmDrive works and why it does not violate either CofM and CofE. Think about resonant photons slowly transferring some of their momentum and energy to mass and then watching as their wavelengths slowly lengthen. Think about what that would do to the resonant nature of the photons in the cavity and how the slowly increasing wavelength will alter cavity dynamics.
A few questions to ask yourself:
1) Will the VSWR alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
2) Will the coupler impedance alter during acceleration compared to pre acceleration?
3) Will the Q alter during acceleration vs pre acceleration?
4) Will the KE gain of the accelerating mass become another per cycle loss on cavity energy?
5) Will the resonant photons increase their wavelength during acceleration but not pre acceleration?
I could add more but that is enough to hopefully start you thinking down a new pathway.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows
For years you have been saying you know the EM drive works, but you have not shown any data from your own experiments. As far as anyone can tell, you have never built and tested an EM drive. Blind faith is not how science works. Build your KISS drive, runs some experiments, and show us data to prove your claims.
Hi Oyzw,
Correct.
