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#3380
by
otlski
on 29 May, 2018 01:21
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Why not? It depends on the sensitivity of the apparatus, the strength of the inducted magnetic force and the vectors of both the earth magnetic (surrounding) magnetic field and the one generated by his system.
I agree. The Lorentz forces could push off the linear air bearing depending on how the bearing is oriented with the geomagnetic field. So perhaps what is needed is a low-friction table like an air hockey table. Build a self-contained engine and have it perform maneuvers on the table. 
The air hockey table puck concept with air jets coming through the bottom would be constantly steered by those jets as they impinged on the experiment platform. At the thrust levels supposedly involved here, the inadvertent steering would overwhelm the experiment.
If inverted, and the air was released from the top from the experiment platform, this error would go away. However, leveling errors would still exist as the experiment platform would seek the low spot. Also, undulations in the surface flatness would cause similar issues. The air would have to be stored on-board in a tank which either limits the time of flotation if too small, or causes mass/inertia response delays if too large.
A high quality hemispherical air bearing which allowed the experiment to rotate 360 degrees around would be a better choice as a base component; and several rotations of the experiment would pass through nulls and peaks in Earth's magnetic field. Self induced motoring of such bearings can be quantified and subtracted out. The one Eagleworks used appeared to be of poor quality and was not properly characterized.
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#3381
by
ThinkerX
on 29 May, 2018 02:34
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Putting the whole apparatus on a miniature barge and float testing it in a basin of still water might be an option. Or maybe a near frictionless platform on a near frictionless solid surface (ice, maybe?) Neither would work in vacuum.
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#3382
by
Monomorphic
on 29 May, 2018 11:06
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A high quality hemispherical air bearing which allowed the experiment to rotate 360 degrees around would be a better choice as a base component; and several rotations of the experiment would pass through nulls and peaks in Earth's magnetic field. Self induced motoring of such bearings can be quantified and subtracted out. The one Eagleworks used appeared to be of poor quality and was not properly characterized.
I think MIT's Maglev Cubesat Testbed is a more economical option than a high quality hemispherical air bearing. If the apparatus can hang far enough below, then interference from the electromagnet would be negligible.
http://spl.mit.edu/spacecraft-systems
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#3383
by
OnlyMe
on 29 May, 2018 19:32
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A high quality hemispherical air bearing which allowed the experiment to rotate 360 degrees around would be a better choice as a base component; and several rotations of the experiment would pass through nulls and peaks in Earth's magnetic field. Self induced motoring of such bearings can be quantified and subtracted out. The one Eagleworks used appeared to be of poor quality and was not properly characterized.
I think MIT's Maglev Cubesat Testbed is a more economical option than a high quality hemispherical air bearing. If the apparatus can hang far enough below, then interference from the electromagnet would be negligible. http://spl.mit.edu/spacecraft-systems
I am not sure that a Maglev Testbed would be a good choice for an EmDrive, at least until after establishing a repeatable useable thrust has been experimentally demonstrated/proven. Even if/when error sources have been designed out or identified and characterized, the EmDrive is inherently an electromagnetic device... and the magnetic field of a Maglev Testbed would have to introduce at least one or more additional sources of ... noise.
It seems from the sidelines here, that the focus on improving the current test bed designs is the best approach.., where the focus is to prove/disprove any potentially useable thrust. When and if a useable thrust is confirmed and repeatable, the use of magnetic and air bearings for rotary testbeds, would provide additional data about any potential sustainable thrust... the Maglev Testbed then being useful for vacuum chamber tests.
Still.., it seems to me that once a useable in atmosphere thrust was confirmed, the next step should be a redesign of the successful testbed, intended for replication of the in atmosphere experiments, in a vacuum chamber.
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#3384
by
LowerAtmosphere
on 29 May, 2018 23:08
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A brief comment: it pains me that so much experimental error could be avoided by going for a better alloy than just pure Cu. Have talked in depth on this topic earlier.
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#3385
by
VAXHeadroom
on 30 May, 2018 02:54
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I have access to one of these at work:
https://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/guiding-systems/air-bearing/a-65x-piglide-hb-hemispherical-air-bearing-900712/I have the 65Kg capacity version.
-- Emory
...
A high quality hemispherical air bearing which allowed the experiment to rotate 360 degrees around would be a better choice as a base component; and several rotations of the experiment would pass through nulls and peaks in Earth's magnetic field. Self induced motoring of such bearings can be quantified and subtracted out. The one Eagleworks used appeared to be of poor quality and was not properly characterized.
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#3386
by
TheTraveller
on 30 May, 2018 17:57
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#3387
by
X_RaY
on 30 May, 2018 19:34
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#3388
by
TheTraveller
on 30 May, 2018 20:33
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Phil (aka TheTraveller),
is there any news about your business related to the emdrive and what about the kiss-thruster project?
Does you have any news to share about it to the public? We are curious about the results.
X-Ray,
A super simple to build KISS thruster is being developed. Based on a commercial flower pot. More details & build pictures once the basic thruster is fabricated. BTW it will have KISS copper pcb flat end plates as per Paul's build.
Public demos of the KISS rotary test rig will be held initially in the UK then in the EU, US, Asia and Australia. The demo road trip is planned for early 2019 with the commercial TRL 9 satellite thruster system release in late 2019. Satellite thruster system is a totally different design and build vs the KISS demo thruster.
Projected build specs (subject to change):
Bd: 280mm
Sd: 150mm
Len: 308mm
Material: 1 oz copper PCB flat end plates, 0.5mm thick frustum
Mode: TE013
Freq: 2.45GHz
Df: 0.813
Ql: 22k
Force: min 11mN or 1gf
Forward pwr: 90Wrf
Rotary acceleration data as attached:
Rotary test rig image as attached (note 100W Rf amp to replace the 8W Rf amp shown)
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#3389
by
Monomorphic
on 30 May, 2018 21:05
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A super simple to build KISS thruster is being developed. Based on a commercial flower pot. More details & build pictures once the basic thruster is fabricated. BTW it will have KISS copper pcb flat end plates as per Paul's build.
Force: min 11mN or 1gf
Phil, a quick calculation using my spreadsheet indicates that your rotary test rig will only rotate 137.5° with 11mN of thrust.
My calcs come to 0.081476 mN/degree using 2 meters of #14 piano wire. Those calcs are for 0.5 meters from center wire to thruster. If you mount the thruster 1 meter from the center wire, then you will just barely get one 360° rotation at 0.034872 mN/degree.
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#3390
by
RonM
on 30 May, 2018 22:27
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Phil (aka TheTraveller),
is there any news about your business related to the emdrive and what about the kiss-thruster project?
Does you have any news to share about it to the public? We are curious about the results.
X-Ray,
A super simple to build KISS thruster is being developed. Based on a commercial flower pot. More details & build pictures once the basic thruster is fabricated. BTW it will have KISS copper pcb flat end plates as per Paul's build.
Public demos of the KISS rotary test rig will be held initially in the UK then in the EU, US, Asia and Australia. The demo road trip is planned for early 2019 with the commercial TRL 9 satellite thruster system release in late 2019. Satellite thruster system is a totally different design and build vs the KISS demo thruster.
Projected build specs (subject to change):
Bd: 280mm
Sd: 150mm
Len: 308mm
Material: 1 oz copper PCB flat end plates, 0.5mm thick frustum
Mode: TE013
Freq: 2.45GHz
Df: 0.813
Ql: 22k
Force: min 11mN or 1gf
Forward pwr: 90Wrf
Rotary acceleration data as attached:
Rotary test rig image as attached (note 100W Rf amp to replace the 8W Rf amp shown)
I'm sure you're a busy individual, but you've been posting about KISS thrusters since 2015 without showing any progress on a build. Got any pictures or data to share?
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#3391
by
PotomacNeuron
on 30 May, 2018 23:15
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...
TheTraveller,
As discussed long time ago, your balance will not stay horizontal, but will tip over instead. You need to either add a rigid structure in the middle and mount the piano wire on the highest point of the structure, or mount the components on the down side of the wood plank.
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#3392
by
otlski
on 31 May, 2018 00:28
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I have access to one of these at work: https://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/guiding-systems/air-bearing/a-65x-piglide-hb-hemispherical-air-bearing-900712/
I have the 65Kg capacity version.
-- Emory
...
A high quality hemispherical air bearing which allowed the experiment to rotate 360 degrees around would be a better choice as a base component; and several rotations of the experiment would pass through nulls and peaks in Earth's magnetic field. Self induced motoring of such bearings can be quantified and subtracted out. The one Eagleworks used appeared to be of poor quality and was not properly characterized.
Good quality there. When PI bought Nelson Air a few years back they picked up some nice capability. Our company both purchases from PI (very small bearings) and competes with them in slightly larger bearings. Our current max capacity is 23,000 lbs but may increase pending the results of a feasibility study.
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#3393
by
TheTraveller
on 31 May, 2018 05:14
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A super simple to build KISS thruster is being developed. Based on a commercial flower pot. More details & build pictures once the basic thruster is fabricated. BTW it will have KISS copper pcb flat end plates as per Paul's build.
Force: min 11mN or 1gf
Phil, a quick calculation using my spreadsheet indicates that your rotary test rig will only rotate 137.5° with 11mN of thrust.
My calcs come to 0.081476 mN/degree using 2 meters of #14 piano wire. Those calcs are for 0.5 meters from center wire to thruster. If you mount the thruster 1 meter from the center wire, then you will just barely get one 360° rotation at 0.034872 mN/degree.
Will be using monofilament fishing line.
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#3394
by
TheTraveller
on 31 May, 2018 05:22
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...
TheTraveller,
As discussed long time ago, your balance will not stay horizontal, but will tip over instead. You need to either add a rigid structure in the middle and mount the piano wire on the highest point of the structure, or mount the components on the down side of the wood plank.
Will be using 4 bridle attachment points that join together well above the centre of gravity, plus using monofilament fishing line and not piano wire.
EmDrive, electronics and laptop will be inside 3 light weight 5 sided plastic boxes so heat can't generate any significant rotary torque. EmDrive can be rotated to point small end CC, CCW, In, Out or any desired direction.
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#3395
by
TheTraveller
on 31 May, 2018 05:32
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Phil (aka TheTraveller),
is there any news about your business related to the emdrive and what about the kiss-thruster project?
Does you have any news to share about it to the public? We are curious about the results.
X-Ray,
A super simple to build KISS thruster is being developed. Based on a commercial flower pot. More details & build pictures once the basic thruster is fabricated. BTW it will have KISS copper pcb flat end plates as per Paul's build.
Public demos of the KISS rotary test rig will be held initially in the UK then in the EU, US, Asia and Australia. The demo road trip is planned for early 2019 with the commercial TRL 9 satellite thruster system release in late 2019. Satellite thruster system is a totally different design and build vs the KISS demo thruster.
Projected build specs (subject to change):
Bd: 280mm
Sd: 150mm
Len: 308mm
Material: 1 oz copper PCB flat end plates, 0.5mm thick frustum
Mode: TE013
Freq: 2.45GHz
Df: 0.813
Ql: 22k
Force: min 11mN or 1gf
Forward pwr: 90Wrf
Rotary acceleration data as attached:
Rotary test rig image as attached (note 100W Rf amp to replace the 8W Rf amp shown)
I'm sure you're a busy individual, but you've been posting about KISS thrusters since 2015 without showing any progress on a build. Got any pictures or data to share?
Goal here is to make this built very low cost and as simple as possible to replicate. Do hope many 1,000 will replicate it. Have seen many very over built cavities that achieved next to nothing because the basic EmDrive design and build guidelines were not followed. Building a 1st cavity is not a place for renvention of the wheel. Nor a place to copy a very low efficiency build.
General Principles for the Successful Design and Manufacture of an EmDrive Thruster
http://www.emdrive.com/GeneralPrinciples.pdfI'm searching for a desired mandrel on which to form the frustum. Very difficult to do this without an internal form.
Once I find it, can then calc the final dimensions to achieve TE012 or TE013 resonance at a freq the 100W Rf amp can drive.
Then the frustum curve will be cut and the photos will start.
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#3396
by
flux_capacitor
on 31 May, 2018 10:26
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I'm searching for a desired mandrel on which to form the frustum. Very difficult to do this without an internal form.
Once I find it, can then calc the final dimensions to achieve TE012 or TE013 resonance at a freq the 100W Rf amp can drive.
Then the frustum curve will be cut and the photos will start.
Can you explain further the building process I'm not so sure to understand? Are you saying you are searching for a simple low-cost hollow conical object (a flower pot in plastic for example) with some special aspect ratio, in order to use it on a lathe to force some spun solid copper to take its shape?
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#3397
by
TheTraveller
on 31 May, 2018 10:48
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I'm searching for a desired mandrel on which to form the frustum. Very difficult to do this without an internal form.
Once I find it, can then calc the final dimensions to achieve TE012 or TE013 resonance at a freq the 100W Rf amp can drive.
Then the frustum curve will be cut and the photos will start.
Can you explain further the building process I'm not so sure to understand? Are you saying you are searching for a simple low-cost hollow conical object (a flower pot in plastic for example) with some special aspect ratio, in order to use it on a lathe to force some spun solid copper to take its shape?
Mandrel is probably not the best word. I need a form that goes inside the frustum which can be used to assist forming the 0.5mm sheet Cu into a frustum, and in doing the butt joint side seam. The internal form dimensions will thus determine the frustum dimensions and might need the length adjusted to obtain resonance in the freq range the Rf system can excite.
Goal is to do the frustum build with no soldering plus hopefully there will be no flanges. All internal surfaces will be mirror polished to achieve as high a Ql as possible. If the Ql is not high enough, goal is min 40k, will get the end plates and frustum Cu electropolished. However that increases built complexity and cost, so will try to avoid going down that pathway.
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#3398
by
flux_capacitor
on 31 May, 2018 11:21
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Mandrel is probably not the best word. I need a form that goes inside the frustum which can be used to assist forming the 0.5mm sheet Cu into a frustum, and in doing the butt joint side seam. The internal form dimensions will thus determine the frustum dimensions and might need the length adjusted to obtain resonance in the freq range the Rf system can excite.
Thanks, understood. Although if the male form goes inside the frustum you probably meant "external" instead. "Internal" if it is the other way around, i.e. if the copper goes inside the female form.
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#3399
by
Monomorphic
on 31 May, 2018 12:39
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Goal here is to make this built very low cost and as simple as possible to replicate. Do hope many 1,000 will replicate it.
Switching to the 100W amplifier does complicate things somewhat. You will need a large battery and a voltage step-down regulator to keep the voltage from falling as the battery discharges. You should look at the Polish build for a good example of this.
I can't remember which forward and reverse power detector you are using, but that will usually require an ADC to function with the computer.
I would also recommend a second computer off the test rig so you can use it to control the first computer via remote desktop. Make sure they use 5G wifi as testing at 2.45Ghz will cause problems with standard wifi. The Polish group used arduino wifi at 900Mhz or so. And remember, even solid state computers have fanless vents to move air. Those need to be taped over.
I am also curious how you plan on impedance matching the antenna as that is not shown on your graphic.
