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#3160 by fvlad on 08 Apr, 2018 10:17
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What exactly do you believe gravity/gravitational waves are? Are you attempting to suggest that gravity propagates as waves from a single body source?... While our only evidence of gravity waves originates from rapidly orbiting massive two body sources.
Then how do you get to toroidal gravitational waves?
Concerning gravitational waves then in my essay it is said:
«Gravitational waves are stationary, as particles and they are vortex gravitational toroidal fields, which can be transforming into photons and vice versa. Their action is observing in shape of plurality annular orbital resonances». https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/5836/?category=images (the image of the Earth in the orbital gravitational wave "orbital resonance").
I.e., during the binary mergers there was a transformation of gravitational waves in the gravispheres of neutron stars into photons. It is clear that the powerful electromagnetic radiation from the binary mergers has come to the gravisphere of the Earth at the speed of light. A powerful electromagnetic action on the Earth's gravisphere led to the formation of toroidal gravitational waves, which were recorded by sensors of gravitational waves. Therefore, it is not surprising that the measured velocity of "gravitation" exactly coincides with the speed of light.
Conclusion - the measured velocity of propagation of gravitational waves has nothing to do with the true speed of gravity propagation. The speed of propagation of electromagnetic waves was simply measured again.
"i.e." means "in other words," which means that what follows should be a simple restatement of the previous paragraph. What follows instead are completely different statements that have exactly 0 supporting evidence. For example, if the phenomena occurred in Earth's atmosphere as you claim, then gravitational wave detectors at different locations on earth would point to that, which would be a different direction for each detector, and not overlap the binary mergers in most cases. Experiments have shown that you are wrong on this.
I apologize, maybe I did not explain well. I will try again.
It is known that around any antenna Fresnel zone with a size of 3 wavelengths is formed, in which standing waves exist. It is assumed that in the Fresnel zone, toroidal gravitational waves (having a mass) are first formed by vibrators and then "annihilate" into photons.
When electromagnetic waves are received by an antenna, their transformation into toroidal gravitational waves takes place. The gravitational potential in toroidal gravitational waves is equivalent to the electric potential, therefore an alternating electric voltage is formed in the antenna.
The earth is also a kind of antenna. Therefore, at the moment of appearance of electromagnetic waves from binary mergers, electromagnetic waves are transformed into toroidal gravitational waves, which are recorded by electromagnetic, gravitational and acoustic devices. In this case, the calculated radiation coordinates from the binary mergers will be the same.
In confirmation of the mutual transformation of gravitational and electromagnetic waves, it is possible to compare the spectra of electromagnetic and gravitational radiation in the Earth's gravisphere.
Virgo_02_10_2017__ELF spectrogram from the S-N Perugia_01.jpg
This comparison of the spectra is added to the comparison of the spectra of gravitational waves with the spectra of acoustic waves of drums that I previously quoted.
Virgo_02_10_2017___Steelpan_02.jpg Virgo_02_10_2017___Steelpan_02.jpg
Vladimir
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#3161 by OnlyMe on 08 Apr, 2018 15:40
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…
I apologize, maybe I did not explain well. I will try again.
Far better as far as bite size goes, still much of the response remains unclear and/or unsupported.It is known that around any antenna Fresnel zone with a size of 3 wavelengths is formed, in which standing waves exist.
Provide a reference for the assertion presented above, where you stated that “around any antenna Fresnel zone with a size of 3 wavelengths is formed”. This does not seem consistent with my limited knowledge of Fresnel zones and the propagation of EM radiation.It is assumed that in the Fresnel zone, toroidal gravitational waves (having a mass) are first formed by vibrators and then "annihilate" into photons.
Above you begin with, “It is assumed “ which suggested an experimentally unproven conclusion, and then introduce once more an undefined concept involving “toroidal gravitational waves (having a mass) …” again without a clear definition of intended meaning or supporting evidence... now adding an assertion that gravitational waves have an independent mass (my interpretation of your statement). It would seem that an assertion that gravitational waves have a mass of their own would lead to the same kind of energy/mass catastrophe and rapid collapse of the universe, that the ZPE debate generates.When electromagnetic waves are received by an antenna, their transformation into toroidal gravitational waves takes place.
While there are some attempts to explain gravitation as emerging from an underlying electromagnetic origin, as far as I am aware they remain essentially fringe theory’s and very limited in scope. Of those attempts I am aware of none seem to assert that EM radiation is transformed into gravitational waves... at best there may be suggestion that gravitation emerges from a fundamental electromagnetic interaction. Even then the work I am aware of remains within the context of fundamental particles and has not been extended to a macroscopic or cosmological scale... All fall within the realm of quantum gravity in one way or another and the gulf between those early works and a comprehensive quantum theory of gravity that addresses the many known macroscopic issues remains significant.The gravitational potential in toroidal gravitational waves is equivalent to the electric potential, therefore an alternating electric voltage is formed in the antenna.
This just makes no real sense! It almost seems you are asserting that gravitational and electromagnetic phenomena/radiation are the same thing... and that sets aside your unsupported reference to toroidal gravitational waves. This concept really needs a clear description/definition of just what you mean... and some kind of supporting reference.The earth is also a kind of antenna. Therefore, at the moment of appearance of electromagnetic waves from binary mergers, electromagnetic waves are transformed into toroidal gravitational waves, which are recorded by electromagnetic, gravitational and acoustic devices. In this case, the calculated radiation coordinates from the binary mergers will be the same.
What can I say here? Is what you are saying, that it is the antenna that transforms electromagnetic waves/energy into gravity? While there are similarities in some of the underlying mathematics, electromagnetism and gravitation are not the same thing. Even while there remains some possibility that gravitation may be an emergent phenomena, even perhaps emergent from a narrowly defined portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.., that remains unproven.., perhaps even unprovable.
What we know of gravitational waves is that changes in gravitational field potential can be detected as a propagating wave front. That is not the same as suggesting that gravitation itself propagates as a wave. This is why I asked earlier about the single body gravitational source as opposed to a massive rapidly orbiting two body source, where the wave front is the result of a changing center of mass, associated with the two orbiting masses.
Added note: I still don’t see how this applies to an EmDrive. I see no where any of the above can be associated with how an EmDrive works. The only possibility is if you were suggesting that an EmDrive is essentially a direction receiving antenna of gravitational waves... which would result in an inertial bias as a function of the “equivalence principal”, but nothing has been presented to support that.
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#3162 by meberbs on 08 Apr, 2018 16:06
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I'll confirm that. Fvlad's description is not at all consistent with the term Fresnel zone, and neither his definition nor the correct one lends any support to the rest of his post.It is known that around any antenna Fresnel zone with a size of 3 wavelengths is formed, in which standing waves exist.
Provide a reference for the assertion presented above, where you stated that “around any antenna Fresnel zone with a size of 3 wavelengths is formed”. This does not seem consistent with my limited knowledge of Fresnel zones and the propagation of EM radiation.
Also I agree with OnlyMe's general assessment of the rest of your post, you jump from unsupported assumptions to unsupported assertions without defining any terms. Your claim that the directions would line up indicates you did not understand what I had written before. If any of your claims were correct, then when the radiation hit Earth's atmosphere, there would be some central point within the atmosphere that the created gravitational waves would seem to radiate from. This is not what is observed.
It should be noted that while you claim "it is possible to compare the spectra of electromagnetic and gravitational radiation in the Earth's gravisphere." You don't actually do so, and no one would ever bother to make such a comparison because the typical frequencies involved are not even close to the same scale. You cut out the original description of your picture where you explain that the second graph is the acoustic spectrum of some random drum. There is simply no reason that these would have any relation including according to your claims, so this doesn't support you at all. Musical instruments are made at all kinds of frequencies within the range of human hearing, so it is no surprise that you found one with a similar peak to the Virgo data. A few other peaks should match up at that point due to harmonics, and the rest of the lines you drew don't mean anything because some peak widths are less than 1 pixel, while others are wide enough to make it so that you could claim a match with almost any spectrum given the density of peaks. -
#3163 by Monomorphic on 08 Apr, 2018 19:55
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Oyzw's copper frustum arrived while I was away on a trip so I had my neighbor store in her living room until I returned so it wouldn't get stolen off my front porch. Now it is safely in my workshop.
The construction is far better than any DIY frustum I've seen as the sidewalls are made of one solid piece of copper with no longitudinal seams. It needs some cleaning up, and the big end-plate will need to be polished to remove a few small scratches. We also have to figure out where to put the antenna, as currently there is no existing hole. I am inclined to go through one of the end-plates first as those are easily replaceable.
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#3164 by OnlyMe on 08 Apr, 2018 20:38
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Oyzw's copper frustum arrived while I was away on a trip so I had my neighbor store in her living room until I returned so it wouldn't get stolen off my front porch. Now it is safely in my workshop.
The construction is far better than any DIY frustum I've seen as the sidewalls are made of one solid piece of copper with no longitudinal seams. It needs some cleaning up, and the big end-plate will need to be polished to remove a few small scratches. We also have to figure out where to put the antenna, as currently there is no existing hole. I am inclined to go through one of the end-plates first as those are easily replaceable.
Monomorphic,
If I remember correctly, Oyzw also offered to send some of the electronics (amplifier(s)?). Is that also in the works and if so will that equipment add potential to eventual tests of both frustums? -
#3165 by Bob Woods on 08 Apr, 2018 21:22
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Oyzw's copper frustum arrived while I was away on a trip so I had my neighbor store in her living room until I returned so it wouldn't get stolen off my front porch. Now it is safely in my workshop.
Is it configured for TE013 or a different frequency? It looks from the pic slightly different than your frustum.
The construction is far better than any DIY frustum I've seen as the sidewalls are made of one solid piece of copper with no longitudinal seams. It needs some cleaning up, and the big end-plate will need to be polished to remove a few small scratches. We also have to figure out where to put the antenna, as currently there is no existing hole. I am inclined to go through one of the end-plates first as those are easily replaceable. -
#3166 by Monomorphic on 08 Apr, 2018 21:52
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If I remember correctly, Oyzw also offered to send some of the electronics (amplifier(s)?). Is that also in the works and if so will that equipment add potential to eventual tests of both frustums?
I've not received any electronics. Fortunately I have everything needed for full VNA to 3Ghz and operation in the 2.4Ghz band at ~25W. Plan is to clean it up, get precise measurements, and simulate the cavity in FEKO. It looks like I can use the small end from my second frustum, which already has a working adjustable antenna. The clamps work very well to seal the cavity, so I may see if there are small non-ferromagnetic clamps available or use big washers. I've cleaned it up some with acetone. Once I clean up the spacer, I can run a VNA.
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#3167 by Monomorphic on 08 Apr, 2018 22:14
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Big end after a wash in acetone and tarn-x.
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#3168 by oyzw on 09 Apr, 2018 00:22
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I didn't send the power amplifier because it was unstable and difficult to use, and it was too heavy.33/5000Oyzw's copper frustum arrived while I was away on a trip so I had my neighbor store in her living room until I returned so it wouldn't get stolen off my front porch. Now it is safely in my workshop.
The construction is far better than any DIY frustum I've seen as the sidewalls are made of one solid piece of copper with no longitudinal seams. It needs some cleaning up, and the big end-plate will need to be polished to remove a few small scratches. We also have to figure out where to put the antenna, as currently there is no existing hole. I am inclined to go through one of the end-plates first as those are easily replaceable.
Monomorphic,
If I remember correctly, Oyzw also offered to send some of the electronics (amplifier(s)?). Is that also in the works and if so will that equipment add potential to eventual tests of both frustums?
I suggest that the primary goal is to improve the cavity Q value, and to find the difference in thrust signals at the same power. -
#3169 by oyzw on 09 Apr, 2018 03:12
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Oyzw's copper frustum arrived while I was away on a trip so I had my neighbor store in her living room until I returned so it wouldn't get stolen off my front porch. Now it is safely in my workshop.
It is better to continue to use mirror polishing process to eliminate the wall scratches in the cavity.
The construction is far better than any DIY frustum I've seen as the sidewalls are made of one solid piece of copper with no longitudinal seams. It needs some cleaning up, and the big end-plate will need to be polished to remove a few small scratches. We also have to figure out where to put the antenna, as currently there is no existing hole. I am inclined to go through one of the end-plates first as those are easily replaceable. -
#3170 by Monomorphic on 09 Apr, 2018 05:51
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It may not be pretty, but it seems to work! And by works, I mean the 10-contact liquid metal system is mounted and is able to move freely as designed. All that is left is to order the 10oz of liquid metal and then use a syringe to inject the metal into the 10 reservoirs.
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#3171 by PotomacNeuron on 09 Apr, 2018 13:44
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It may not be pretty, but it seems to work! And by works, I mean the 10-contact liquid metal system is mounted and is able to move freely as designed. All that is left is to order the 10oz of liquid metal and then use a syringe to inject the metal into the 10 reservoirs.
Looks great. Just keep in mind that there is surface tension problem of liquid contacts so certain rotary displacement of the beam may introduce certain amount of rotary force that is non-linear to the displacement. -
#3172 by Star-Drive on 09 Apr, 2018 14:53
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It may not be pretty, but it seems to work! And by works, I mean the 10-contact liquid metal system is mounted and is able to move freely as designed. All that is left is to order the 10oz of liquid metal and then use a syringe to inject the metal into the 10 reservoirs.
Looks great. Just keep in mind that there is surface tension problem of liquid contacts so certain rotary displacement of the beam may introduce certain amount of rotary force that is non-linear to the displacement.
PotomacNeuron
And all you have to do to accommodate these non-linear surface tension effects is to perform and document calibration runs using the liquid metal contacts to pass paired +/- dc currents from say 1.0 amp up to 15 amps in say 0.5 amp increments into a beam-mounted dc dummy load where the RF amplifier is going to be mounted and then subtract any observed torques from any active test results with an RF source driving the frustum for a particular dc current. Best, Paul M.
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#3173 by Star-Drive on 09 Apr, 2018 14:59
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It may not be pretty, but it seems to work! And by works, I mean the 10-contact liquid metal system is mounted and is able to move freely as designed. All that is left is to order the 10oz of liquid metal and then use a syringe to inject the metal into the 10 reservoirs.
Jamie:
You might consider twisting the black and white wire pairs going to and coming from your liquid metal contact assemblies to minimize stray magnetic fields that each wire will generate when conducting dc power.
Best, Paul M. -
#3174 by Monomorphic on 09 Apr, 2018 16:48
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You might consider twisting the black and white wire pairs going to and coming from your liquid metal contact assemblies to minimize stray magnetic fields that each wire will generate when conducting dc power.
Thanks Paul, I was thinking about this as well. I will at least twist the two main power lines that will carry the ~12V at 12A. I will also twist the 5V ~500mA USB power as well. The others will be minuscule dc power or unused. -
#3175 by john smith 19 on 09 Apr, 2018 17:50
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There's a reason why telephone wires are called "Twisted wire pairs." It's SOP for any system carrying small signals looking to be interference resistant. This is not academic. The Russian N-1 rockets poor launch history was in part due to high power AC interference on some of the sensor cabling from the on board AC generator.You might consider twisting the black and white wire pairs going to and coming from your liquid metal contact assemblies to minimize stray magnetic fields that each wire will generate when conducting dc power.
Thanks Paul, I was thinking about this as well. I will at least twist the two main power lines that will carry the ~12V at 12A. I will also twist the 5V ~500mA USB power as well. The others will be minuscule dc power or unused. -
#3176 by Monomorphic on 09 Apr, 2018 20:15
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There's a reason why telephone wires are called "Twisted wire pairs." It's SOP for any system carrying small signals looking to be interference resistant. This is not academic. The Russian N-1 rockets poor launch history was in part due to high power AC interference on some of the sensor cabling from the on board AC generator.
You are correct of course, and this is only the 4th or 5th time Paul has had to remind me to twist the leads.
There are a few other things I would like to change and since it is several days before the liquid metal arrives, I will likely redesign it, print again and make sure the wiring is twisted.
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#3177 by Star-Drive on 10 Apr, 2018 14:13
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There's a reason why telephone wires are called "Twisted wire pairs." It's SOP for any system carrying small signals looking to be interference resistant. This is not academic. The Russian N-1 rockets poor launch history was in part due to high power AC interference on some of the sensor cabling from the on board AC generator.
You are correct of course, and this is only the 4th or 5th time Paul has had to remind me to twist the leads. There are a few other things I would like to change and since it is several days before the liquid metal arrives, I will likely redesign it, print again and make sure the wiring is twisted.
Jamie:
The previous poster has it right in regards to using twisted pair in reducing EMI artifacts in ALL your wiring whether its for dc power, ac power or low level control lines. In fact it is standard practice in aircraft and spacecraft avionic installations to use individually twisted & shielded wire pairs with each of the twisted pair shields bonded at only one end of the cable to the vehicle's single-point ground system when possible to minimize such E&M interference. (High frequency RF or video feed lines lines usually use 50 ohm Coax or 75 ohm Triax cables for each data run.) This has been my engineering mantra since my days at Cessna Aircraft when I was fresh out of college back in 1973 engineering, installing and flight testing avionics in twin engine aircraft like the Cessna Citations.
BTW, there is an by-invitation-only meeting at Stanford University come next Thursday and Friday April 12 & 13, 2018 on Pacific Daylight Time (PDT) for advanced propulsion researchers to trade notes. My old Eagleworks Lab boss, Dr. Harold (Sonny) White from NASA/JSC will be presenting his Q-Thrusters investigations using the pilot wave approach on Friday, see below the partial schedule for this private workshop. It should be interesting to see how much progress Sonny has made since I left JSC, provided these presentations go public.
http://breakthroughinitiatives.org/events/discuss
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vqz13QMRADR3TdbbiN3jqodrnIoAY6ii3_DNL8_gv4g/edit#gid=0
PS: This conference will be live-streamed at: www.youtube.com/breakthroughprize
April 13, 2018 FRIDAY - Breakthrough Discuss Day Two: Stanford University
12:30 0:10 Session Three: Progress in Novel Space Propulsion Chairs: Sigrid Close, Zachary Manchester
12:40 0:20 Pilot Wave Model for Impulsive Thrust from RF Test Device Presenter 13: Sonny White
13:00 0:20 Scaled Radioisotope Positron Propulsion for Interstellar Spacecraft Presenter 14: Ryan Weed
13:20 0:20 Sails: From the Solar System to the Stars Presenter 15: Geoffrey Landis
13:40 0:10 Break
13:50 0:20 Dipole Drive for Space Propulsion Presenter 16: Robert Zubrin
14:10 0:20 Progress in Beamed Energy Propulsion Presenter 17: Kevin Parkin
14:30 0:20 Solar and Electric Sailing: Stepping Stones to the Stars Presenter 18: Les Johnson
14:50 0:10 Break
15:00 0:10 Panel Three: Progress in Novel Space Propulsion Chairs: Sigrid Close, Zachary Manchester
15:10 0:35 (Panel discussion)
All the best, Paul M. -
#3178 by Monomorphic on 10 Apr, 2018 16:04
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The redesign includes reducing the number of liquid metal contacts from ten to eight. This allowed me to create a little more space between each reservoir while also increasing reservoir size. I also grouped the wire holders in pairs so the wires will be closer and easier to twist.
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#3179 by Bob Woods on 10 Apr, 2018 16:36
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I notice from the schedule that Dr. Fearn is also on a panel late Friday.
PS: This conference will be live-streamed at: www.youtube.com/breakthroughprize
April 13, 2018 FRIDAY - Breakthrough Discuss Day Two: Stanford University
Thanks for the info, Paul.
There are a few other things I would like to change and since it is several days before the liquid metal arrives, I will likely redesign it, print again and make sure the wiring is twisted.