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#3000 by Mulletron on 04 Feb, 2018 00:10
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The Navy Research Lab's presentation has been posted:
Go Navy!
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#3001 by OnlyMe on 04 Feb, 2018 04:53
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I think a good idea is to move away from microwave cavities and instead to counterpropagate (when I say counterpropagate, I mean launch laser light through each end of the bundle in order to create a partial standing wave, vice a standing wave; unequal amplitude so you need dissipation, or unequal wavelength to create beats, but you still need dissipation so that energy doesn't remain constant) light modes through photonic crystal fiber bundles. The cavities in photonic crystal fibers are an analogue to the EMdrive cavity, only obviously shorter wavelength and more of them. …
It would seem far better to me, to stay in the range, or close to the 2.45 ghz range until some better clean and hopefully reproducible results are established. With no clear theory of operation, there is only the engineering and limited past data to go on. Even then it seems there has very little really consistent design, from one to another build, to know whether even small variations might have significant affects on success or failure.
Once…, or if anyone winds up with a truly successful build at or around 2.45 ghz, even be that only low mN of measurable thrust, there will be time to begin exploring how altering the frequency and materials might affect or improve.....
Got to have a build that everyone can agree actually produces useable thrust, before trying to apply, what at this point is mostly guess work as far as theory (the how of it) to significant changes in design. -
#3002 by Mulletron on 04 Feb, 2018 13:33
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I think a good idea is to move away from microwave cavities and instead to counterpropagate (when I say counterpropagate, I mean launch laser light through each end of the bundle in order to create a partial standing wave, vice a standing wave; unequal amplitude so you need dissipation, or unequal wavelength to create beats, but you still need dissipation so that energy doesn't remain constant) light modes through photonic crystal fiber bundles. The cavities in photonic crystal fibers are an analogue to the EMdrive cavity, only obviously shorter wavelength and more of them. …
It would seem far better to me, to stay in the range, or close to the 2.45 ghz range until some better clean and hopefully reproducible results are established. With no clear theory of operation, there is only the engineering and limited past data to go on. Even then it seems there has very little really consistent design, from one to another build, to know whether even small variations might have significant affects on success or failure.
Once…, or if anyone winds up with a truly successful build at or around 2.45 ghz, even be that only low mN of measurable thrust, there will be time to begin exploring how altering the frequency and materials might affect or improve.....
Got to have a build that everyone can agree actually produces useable thrust, before trying to apply, what at this point is mostly guess work as far as theory (the how of it) to significant changes in design.
This all really boils down to Relativity. Tested and proven.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariant_mass
https://books.google.com/books?id=7SDNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=invariant+mass+of+counterpropagating+photons&source=bl&ots=dRZpEimA4d&sig=FpCSPG68wZPqzvjab-7P6Iy01d0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPpZLLuNrYAhUB2lMKHdQkDDo4ChDoAQgLMAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(Url shortener broke the above long link, it should come out to page 61 of the book High Field Electrodynamics. Screenshot below if the link doesn't work. Fair use.)
https://einstein.stanford.edu/SPACETIME/spacetime4.html#gravito_electromagnetism
And with these results, I'm confident that the notion of gravitational induction is a real feature of our universe and not just a mathematical curiosity.
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#3003 by spupeng7 on 05 Feb, 2018 04:15
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(...)
https://einstein.stanford.edu/SPACETIME/spacetime4.html#gravito_electromagnetism
And with these results, I'm confident that the notion of gravitational induction is a real feature of our universe and not just a mathematical curiosity.
Yes, thankyou muchly good Mulletron, yes!
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#3004 by Mark7777777 on 05 Feb, 2018 08:32
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Hi TheTraveller
Do you know if Roger has reported any thrust from his superconductor Emdrive yet?
Regards
Mark -
#3005 by Bob012345 on 05 Feb, 2018 16:05
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The Navy Research Lab's presentation has been posted:
This looks like the kind of experiment needed to close the debate of the existence of the Emdrive.
If this one and Dr. Tajmar's experiments find nothing, the debate is over for me. If there's still something... I don't dare speculate.
A negative result may be disappointing for most people following this, but let's remember that knowing the truth is way better than not.
Also and regardless of the outcome, it leaves a legacy of public awareness of what it takes to prove similar proposals and ideas.
I believe there are no definitive negative experiments that can "close the debate" on a potential phenomenon. Of course one can decide it's not worth the effort to keep trying. In the EmDrive case, many experiments seem to show a weak effect so it's wrong to say there is no evidence. It's possible that those weak effects are artifacts or other effects but that becomes a scientific judgment call. It's when people decide the debate is over and use that as a evidence every future experiment must be wrong that things can become dogmatic which I hope doesn't happen but think it likely will. -
#3006 by JonathanD on 05 Feb, 2018 20:26
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I appreciate the fact they are not starting with a new design, and instead trying to replicate NASA Eagleworks results in vacuum, and also, impressively, in steady state. Even if a null result it may provide helpful insight into the source of experimental error.
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#3007 by Jim Davis on 05 Feb, 2018 21:27
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I believe there are no definitive negative experiments that can "close the debate" on a potential phenomenon.
That's true, of course. But combined with the theoretical difficulties (violations of conservation laws) the lack of definitive evidence over such a long period of searching does strongly suggest that what one is looking for may not in fact exist. The parallels with paranormal or out of the mainstream phenomena like bigfoot, UFOs, cold fusion,and the like become uncomfortably close. -
#3008 by oyzw on 06 Feb, 2018 00:18
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Of course, this is a real thrust, and I talked to professor Yang recently, and she still believes in the results.I believe there are no definitive negative experiments that can "close the debate" on a potential phenomenon.
That's true, of course. But combined with the theoretical difficulties (violations of conservation laws) the lack of definitive evidence over such a long period of searching does strongly suggest that what one is looking for may not in fact exist. The parallels with paranormal or out of the mainstream phenomena like bigfoot, UFOs, cold fusion,and the like become uncomfortably close. -
#3009 by Bob012345 on 06 Feb, 2018 18:11
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I believe there are no definitive negative experiments that can "close the debate" on a potential phenomenon.
That's true, of course. But combined with the theoretical difficulties (violations of conservation laws) the lack of definitive evidence over such a long period of searching does strongly suggest that what one is looking for may not in fact exist. The parallels with paranormal or out of the mainstream phenomena like bigfoot, UFOs, cold fusion,and the like become uncomfortably close.
There has been enough theoretical work to suggest that the violations may be only apparent. Why should we be surprised if new effects are small and not easily made robust? That may just be the way nature is. Parallels to completely unrelated phenomenon are meaningless. In my view, it's way too early to give up. -
#3010 by Bob Woods on 06 Feb, 2018 20:01
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Kudos to SpaceX and Elon on a magnificent launch and recovery!
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#3011 by Polonius on 06 Feb, 2018 22:21
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Hey guys, sorry for the slight derail, but I'm looking for a blog that I believe one of the more active EM Drive experimenters here runs where he discusses the possibility of using fiber-optic cables placed against a metal plate with light pumped through them to potentially produce thrust, rather than a metal frustrum. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
edit:
found it!
http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.ca/2016/07/lemdrive.html -
#3012 by spupeng7 on 07 Feb, 2018 02:25
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I believe there are no definitive negative experiments that can "close the debate" on a potential phenomenon.
That's true, of course. But combined with the theoretical difficulties (violations of conservation laws) the lack of definitive evidence over such a long period of searching does strongly suggest that what one is looking for may not in fact exist. The parallels with paranormal or out of the mainstream phenomena like bigfoot, UFOs, cold fusion,and the like become uncomfortably close.
There has been enough theoretical work to suggest that the violations may be only apparent. Why should we be surprised if new effects are small and not easily made robust? That may just be the way nature is. Parallels to completely unrelated phenomenon are meaningless. In my view, it's way too early to give up.
Thanks Bob,
if there is a chance in a billion, this is worth pursuing.
The potential reward is incalculable, maybe even survival,
and in the pursuit, there could be a clue as to how
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#3013 by rfmwguy on 08 Feb, 2018 00:00
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looks like nrl has perfected my torsion beam/lds test stand
. great solution using storyline coupler. 4 micrnewton noise floor is excellent. 150 watts is a good start. btw, my garage shop building days are over. i took it as far as I could. i now will project manage my own design IF funding is received by those organizing. this is my stip...along with the overall project must be based on a non-leo flight article. iow...worlds first interstellar based mission. no reason to set the goal any lower from my perspective.
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#3014 by Mulletron on 09 Feb, 2018 00:17
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looks like nrl has perfected my torsion beam/lds test stand
. great solution using storyline coupler. 4 micrnewton noise floor is excellent. 150 watts is a good start. btw, my garage shop building days are over. i took it as far as I could. i now will project manage my own design IF funding is received by those organizing. this is my stip...along with the overall project must be based on a non-leo flight article. iow...worlds first interstellar based mission. no reason to set the goal any lower from my perspective.
You bring the nuclear power source and I'll provide the emdrive build funding.
If anyone's interested in a collaboration, I need to form a team * over on the East Coast in the vicinity of SE Virginia (and this is pro bono, and not for the benefit of the members, not for profit, but for others, it's volunteer work) to help integrate a system on a tabletop optical setup. This is an engineering problem now, and those with optical engineering (hands on) experience are needed. Major funding isn't required because this should cost no more than 3k for materials which is minimal, the major investment is time and dedication.
*American citizens only. -
#3015 by spupeng7 on 12 Feb, 2018 02:43
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(...)
Probably the most important is eliminating unwanted measurements such as thermal effects and magnetic interference. That was my primary reason for suggesting double enclosing a pendulum in a free to rotate ferrous box, which is enclosed in a non-rotating ferrous box. The non rotating ferrous box shunts external magnetic fields around the device. The internal ferrous box shunts internal magnetic fields from the pendulum back to the pendulum. Ideally the pendulum is then free to osculate with out regards to interference.
(...)
dustinthewind, there is a risk of eliminating the mechanism of action by which thrust is achieved, if it is a consequence of a coulomb or magnetic interaction with the distant universe... maybe experiments could be run with and without such shields
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#3016 by ThatOtherGuy on 14 Feb, 2018 13:18
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The Navy Research Lab's presentation has been posted:
Looking at the image of the cavity
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/42978.0/1474131.jpg
is the connector near the large end the antenna feed or what ? It seems to be placed in the wrong spot...
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#3017 by SeeShells on 14 Feb, 2018 14:19
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Sorry guys but I've been busy, missed you all.The Navy Research Lab's presentation has been posted:
Looking at the image of the cavity
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/42978.0/1474131.jpg
is the connector near the large end the antenna feed or what ? It seems to be placed in the wrong spot...
No, the magnetic loop antenna is right where it should be to mimic EagleWorks drive testing when they reported thrust in their paper.
A couple things I observed on these tests by Martin Tajmar's group and the NRL (worked with these guys a long time ago and they are some of the finest).
Things I have questions about in the videos from the workshop last year.
http://ssi.org/2017-advanced-propulsion-workshop-videos-day-two/
Tajmar's group.
1. Reported Qs in the 500,000 range. That should be a red flag for them such a high abnormally in their testing and or build. Dr. Rodal called it out correctly when he questioned Tajmar directly in the presentation.
2. No thrusts reported, said it was a compass needle. It takes a DC component to make a north and south pole, where was their DC component in their rig??
3. Almost of their testing was done at a tiny 2 watts of RF. We have not seen any reported thrusts at 2 watts from anyone.
4. Paul March has stated that no thrusts reported were when he drove the frustum less than 25 watts and that it took shifting the drive frequency about 20 to 45 degrees above or below the resonant frequency. (Note: This agrees with what I've seen)
5. They were uncertain of the mode they were driving. It's critical to know.
6. Shouldn't they have rotated the entire test stand to map what they were calling the compass needle to make sure that it wasn't a error from something else?
NRL Group.
From what I've seen on the video it looks like they are doing a nice setup and at power levels needed. I'd recommend that they look at running tests off resonance per Paul March's observations and mine.
On both test rigs I like the fact that the RF and power generating devices were off the beam. I've been saying this for years. The thermals will become a large part of your error bars if you don't and power everything on the beam. Of course there is the issue on coupling. Waveguide coupling or liquid metal. Monomorphic has done a great job at driving his beam with batteries although he is seeing what the NRL is trying to avoid.
It's been 5 months since the Navel Research Labs reported what they were doing. I'd be interested on hearing anything or a update.
ME? Slow. I hope warmer weather and a little more cash flow is going to help. I'm redoing the lab in the house (maybe can get some work done late at night), tore down the old lab table and putting up the new design. Will have enough this SS check to pick up some more copper and another Ceramic plate for the small endplate I need to redo.
My Very Best,
Shell -
#3018 by Rodal on 14 Feb, 2018 14:55
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Thank you SeeShells for your excellent post. Regarding the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) presentation, I count 3 months and 12 days since the presentation on Thursday, November 2nd, 2017. I have not seen an update yet from NRL or from TUDresden. Both said that they were going to proceed very methodically and systematically, so it may take a while. I expect Tajmar's TUDresden group to perhaps present at the Aerospace and Defense conference in Sevilla http://sevilla.bciaerospace.com/en/ May 15 to 18, 2018.
It's been 5 months since the Navel Research Labs reported what they were doing. I'd be interested on hearing anything or a update.
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#3019 by PotomacNeuron on 14 Feb, 2018 15:36
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DC in grounding loops may be a direction to investigate. Also there are DC inside of amplifiers and other components.
Tajmar's group.
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2. No thrusts reported, said it was a compass needle. It takes a DC component to make a north and south pole, where was their DC component in their rig??Quote3. Almost of their testing was done at a tiny 2 watts of RF. We have not seen any reported thrusts at 2 watts from anyone.
EW reported 2.6W and 55.4uN, http://www.libertariannews.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/AnomalousThrustProductionFromanRFTestDevice-BradyEtAl.pdf, page 17Quote...
. great solution using storyline coupler. 4 micrnewton noise floor is excellent. 150 watts is a good start. btw, my garage shop building days are over. i took it as far as I could. i now will project manage my own design IF funding is received by those organizing. this is my stip...along with the overall project must be based on a non-leo flight article. iow...worlds first interstellar based mission. no reason to set the goal any lower from my perspective.