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#2380
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 19:54
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It is Roger Shawyer, the inventor of the EM Drive that still claims, to this date that all that is required to explain the EM Drive is Maxwell's equations and Newton's laws. Both of them (Maxwell's equations and Newton's laws) satisfy conservation of momentum, therefore Shawyer's explanation is what is being questioned, for very good reasons.
Shawer says repeatedly that there is no need for anything else than classical physics and no need for New Physics to explain it. This is what is being questioned!
Regarding sidewall interactions, I remember that Shawyer particularly made some distinction about traveling waves vs standing waves. What's the significance of that? Is that where some cleverness happens? (because I'm not clever enough to see it)
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#2381
by
Rodal
on 23 Oct, 2017 20:07
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It is Roger Shawyer, the inventor of the EM Drive that still claims, to this date that all that is required to explain the EM Drive is Maxwell's equations and Newton's laws. Both of them (Maxwell's equations and Newton's laws) satisfy conservation of momentum, therefore Shawyer's explanation is what is being questioned, for very good reasons.
Shawer says repeatedly that there is no need for anything else than classical physics and no need for New Physics to explain it. This is what is being questioned!
Regarding sidewall interactions, I remember that Shawyer particularly made some distinction about traveling waves vs standing waves. What's the significance of that? Is that where some cleverness happens? (because I'm not clever enough to see it)
Whether they are standing waves, travelling waves, or for that matter any kind of electromagnetic waves internally generated and wholly analyzable with Maxwell's equations (
as purported by Shawyer) it does not make any difference whatsoever to the conservation of momentum and conservation of energy arguments because Maxwell's equations satisfy both. Thus, for the thing to accelerate at an acceleration
greater than the one of a photon rocket one needs an
external field (which Shawyer still denies)! [or for the EM Drive to be ejecting particles with mass greater than zero, which he also denies. For example, none of Shawyer's experiments have been reported to be in a vacuum, and hence it is easy to create the reported forces just by heating of surrounding air ]
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#2382
by
wicoe
on 23 Oct, 2017 20:16
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I'm really trying to discuss the energy issue, not TT's or Shawyer's particular explanations. Regarding bringing up the NIAC proposal, which I think is really great, was in context of the discussion regarding energy and COE which equally applies to both concepts and it seems to me a valid data point to the issue and it informs the discussion of EMDrive in my opinion. Also, in the end it's a lot more interesting for me to see what Shawyer does as compared to what he says.
Again, this is probably not the right thread to discuss this, but as I understand it, the Woodward's hypothesis deals with CoE by getting the "rest of the universe" involved in the interaction. I.e. the change in KE of an object is offset by the change in KE of the other objects in the universe, so when you consider them as a whole, CoE is satisfied. I'm not saying I accept the Woodward's model, but at least it is much more consistent than what Shawyer is claiming.
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#2383
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 20:31
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Whether they are standing waves, travelling waves, or for that matter any kind of waves internally generated and wholly analyzable with Maxwell's equations (as purported by Shawyer) it does not make any difference whatsoever to the conservation of momentum and conservation of energy arguments because Maxwell's equations satisfy both. Thus, for the thing to accelerate one needs an external field (which Shawyer still denies)!
Do you remember this?
https://www.google.com/patents/US20080197238It was invented by Young Bae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_laser_thrusterThe concept, initially developed by Young Bae, differs from other solar sail and laser propulsion concepts in that an amplification process is used, in which the incident beam is re-used by being reflected by a stationary mirror, with an amplification stage at each reflection. Because of the recycling of energy, the photonic laser thruster is claimed to be more energy efficient than other laser-pushed sail concepts.
When this came out, I thought it had some similarities to Shawyer's concept - except that the photon source was not onboard the same spacecraft. Of course Bae's version has a satellite pushing off another satellite (no external field required). But the resonant amplification part was what seemed novel and special (ie. more efficiently pushing off the other satellite)
So could EMdrive analogously then somehow be a more efficient Photon Rocket? (ie. more than just collimated, but somehow incorporating amplification similar to what Bae's concept does)
The efficiency of a conventional rocket having a bell is greater than one without a bell. But perhaps the bell for EMdrive is using up photon energy that would otherwise be wasted, rather than spitting it out plainly like a Photon Rocket does.
What do Maxwell's Equations say about the Casimir Effect?
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#2384
by
RERT
on 23 Oct, 2017 20:45
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Meberbs -
The reverse implication time dilation gradient -> gravity-like force is just straight from the maths. I don't know how to address a suggestion that it isn't just fact, since we are generally quite happy to allow mathematics to do our deductions for us.
Correct, there is no time dilation in Newtonian gravity. But if you replace Newtonian gravity with a very simplified form of GR where particles move on geodesics in a metric space where the only feature is a spatially varying 'time dilation field' you can recover the forces of Newtonian gravity. Plus, you have a theory with no 'action at a distance', which I believe is preferable.
These ideas are useful because, in the context of desperately seeking a theory for the EM drive, it is not inconceivable that the 'time dilation field' could be influenced and hence gravity-like forces generated. I have no evidence for that, but the fact that the avenue is open is valuable.
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#2385
by
Rodal
on 23 Oct, 2017 20:58
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Whether they are standing waves, travelling waves, or for that matter any kind of waves internally generated and wholly analyzable with Maxwell's equations (as purported by Shawyer) it does not make any difference whatsoever to the conservation of momentum and conservation of energy arguments because Maxwell's equations satisfy both. Thus, for the thing to accelerate one needs an external field (which Shawyer still denies)!
...So could EMdrive analogously then somehow be a more efficient Photon Rocket? (ie. more than just collimated, but somehow incorporating amplification similar to what Bae's concept does)...
No, it cannot be purely on the basis on internally generated electromagnetic fields and Maxwell's equations, and without external fields and without any New Physics, as previously stated.
In Bae's concept one of the spaceships is propelled backwards. In Bae's concept the acceleration of
the center of mass of the two spaceships is NOT more efficient than a normal photon rocket.
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#2386
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:10
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No, it cannot be purely on the basis on internally generated electromagnetic fields and Maxwell's equations, and without external fields and without any New Physics, as previously stated.
In Bae's concept one of the spaceships is propelled backwards. In Bae's concept the acceleration of the center of mass of the two spaceships is NOT more efficient than a normal photon rocket.
Okay, fair enuf, I recognize that one satellite is pushing of the other in Bae's idea.
But what do Maxwell's Equations say about the Casimir Effect? (whether attractive or repulsive geometries)
We know we can't extract work from the sink - but we can do work in relation to the sink (eg. heat pump)
Could EMdrive be some kind of "Vacuum Pump"?
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#2387
by
Rodal
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:13
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No, it cannot be purely on the basis on internally generated electromagnetic fields and Maxwell's equations, and without external fields and without any New Physics, as previously stated.
In Bae's concept one of the spaceships is propelled backwards. In Bae's concept the acceleration of the center of mass of the two spaceships is NOT more efficient than a normal photon rocket.
Okay, fair enuf, I recognize that one satellite is pushing of the other in Bae's idea.
But what do Maxwell's Equations say about the Casimir Effect? (whether attractive or repulsive geometries)
We know we can't extract work from the sink - but we can do work in relation to the sink (eg. heat pump)
Could EMdrive be some kind of "Vacuum Pump"?
Again, in a Cassimir effect one has 2 plates separated and
being able to move separately
in the EM Drive you have a solid closed body without internal surfaces being able to move separately.
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#2388
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:35
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Is there some possibility of a Maxwell's Demon here?
ie. some kind of Quantum Feedback Loop whereby you're able to push off the Vacuum fluctuations in a directionally biased way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_feedback(so the Dynamic Vacuum would be the external field)
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#2389
by
graybeardsyseng
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:41
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....
If he used just glass would that be a shield enough from convection currents allowing him to still see what is going on with his experiment? ...
...
No, the insulation is not there to shield from forced convection currents.
The issue is not insulating from forced convection in the room (as for example a fan or drafts in his room), in which case all you would need would be to have glass, or transparent plastic, or whatever non-permeable surface, to prevent the forced convection.
The issue is to minimize natural (also called "free") convection, not forced convection. (We suppose that Monomorphic has no fans, air conditioning or heating vents with forced convection and other sources of forced convection impinging on the enclosure and in any case the present transparent enclosure prevents such forced convection)
Natural convection is the result of difference in temperature between surfaces of the chamber.
The purpose is to minimize the temperature gradient within the chamber.
To minimize natural convection he needs to insulate the chamber, so that the temperature gradients are minimized.
He needs to have all the internal surfaces of the chamber at the same temperature. (Single pane) glass will not do that. He needs to minimize the coefficient of heat transfer, he needs to have surfaces with low thermal conductivity. He needs lots of insulation.
It is also a good idea to minimize internal sources of heat.
Jose et al
Sorry this is from a few days ago - I have been offline and I am just catching up.
Thanks for this - excellent explanation of the topic. Decades ago I taught steam power plant engineering for submarines in the Navy and natural vs forced convection were some of the most difficult concepts to get across. And complicated to analyze analytically unless you made a LOT of simplifying assumptions (one dimensional head flow, steady state, laminar fluid flow, homogenous fluid, etc etc etc). But this is very important for those experimenters trying to detect micro-newton level forces on a DIY budget.
Just some observations - Heat flow (i.e. when there is any temperature difference) between points via natural convection or even any radiative or worst conductive ) WILL generate acoustic spectrum vibrations. Perhaps very tiny but they will be there. Materials of differing thermal conductivity and/or coefficients of expansion which are in contact, or worse which are rigidly attached to each other, will cause micro vibrations whenever.
Jamie is doing an truly outstanding job based on his latest noise profiles.
graybeardsyseng
Herman
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#2390
by
Rodal
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:43
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Is there some possibility of a Maxwell's Demon here?
ie. some kind of Quantum Feedback Loop whereby you're able to push off the Vacuum fluctuations in a directionally biased way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_feedback
(so the Dynamic Vacuum would be the external field)
If the Quantum Vacuum is the zero energy point, that means that you should not be able to extract momentum or energy from it, because the momentum/energy gained by the EM Drive would be subtracted from the QV, which contradicts its zero point nature, so what you thought was "zero point energy" really wasn't.
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#2391
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:51
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Is there some possibility of a Maxwell's Demon here?
ie. some kind of Quantum Feedback Loop whereby you're able to push off the Vacuum fluctuations in a directionally biased way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_feedback
(so the Dynamic Vacuum would be the external field)
If the Quantum Vacuum is the zero energy point, that means that you should not be able to extract momentum or energy from it, because the momentum/energy gained by the EM Drive would be subtracted from the QV, which contradicts its zero point nature.
But you are pumping up the Vacuum inside the cavity with RF/microwaves. So the state of the Vacuum inside the cavity is not the same as outside the cavity (the true zero point)
So regarding stealing momentum (asymmetrically), if you're stealing it from a pumped-up vacuum, that's not the same as stealing it from regular zero-point vacuum.
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#2392
by
Rodal
on 23 Oct, 2017 21:54
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Is there some possibility of a Maxwell's Demon here?
ie. some kind of Quantum Feedback Loop whereby you're able to push off the Vacuum fluctuations in a directionally biased way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_feedback
(so the Dynamic Vacuum would be the external field)
If the Quantum Vacuum is the zero energy point, that means that you should not be able to extract momentum or energy from it, because the momentum/energy gained by the EM Drive would be subtracted from the QV, which contradicts its zero point nature.
But you are pumping up the Vacuum inside the cavity with RF/microwaves. So the state of the Vacuum inside the cavity is not the same as outside the cavity (the true zero point)
So regarding stealing momentum (asymmetrically), if you're stealing it from a pumped-up vacuum, that's not the same as stealing it from regular zero-point vacuum.
But, besides the theoretical reasons, there is not a single reproducible experiment where someone has been able to extract energy from the Quantum Vacuum.
Even if one were to set aside the concerns about the experimental claims (i.e. Shawyer has never performed a single experiment in vacuum), and the theoretical problems (with the concept of extracting energy from the QV) explaining the EM Drive with an explanation that itself is the only experiment where someone has been able to extract energy from the Quantum Vacuum sounds like a circular argument. Not compelling
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#2393
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 22:17
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But, besides the theoretical reasons, there is not a single reproducible experiment where someone has been able to extract energy from the Quantum Vacuum.
Even if one were to set aside the concerns about the experimental claims (i.e. Shawyer has never performed a single experiment in vacuum), and the theoretical problems (with the concept of extracting energy from the QV) explaining the EM Drive with an explanation that itself is the only experiment where someone has been able to extract energy from the Quantum Vacuum sounds like a circular argument.
Well, there is the Universe - it continues to expand, and that expansion is being driven by the energy of the Quantum Vacuum. From that, one would understand that this expansion is then using up energy from the Quantum Vacuum, while increasing Entropy. If we insist that energy cannot be taken from the Quantum Vacuum, then we must also insist that the Universe cannot be expanding, since such expansion requires it.
So just like Voyager depended upon stealing momentum from Jupiter, and like Mach Effect drive depends on stealing momentum from the Rest of the Distant Universe, likewise EMdrive would depend upon stealing momentum from the Quantum Vacuum.
Dr Rodal, I was also eager to hear your comments on what I said in the Woodward Effect thread.
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#2394
by
Rodal
on 23 Oct, 2017 22:38
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But, besides the theoretical reasons, there is not a single reproducible experiment where someone has been able to extract energy from the Quantum Vacuum.
Even if one were to set aside the concerns about the experimental claims (i.e. Shawyer has never performed a single experiment in vacuum), and the theoretical problems (with the concept of extracting energy from the QV) explaining the EM Drive with an explanation that itself is the only experiment where someone has been able to extract energy from the Quantum Vacuum sounds like a circular argument.
Well, there is the Universe - it continues to expand, and that expansion is being driven by the energy of the Quantum Vacuum. From that, one would understand that this expansion is then using up energy from the Quantum Vacuum, while increasing Entropy. If we insist that energy cannot be taken from the Quantum Vacuum, then we must also insist that the Universe cannot be expanding, since such expansion requires it.
So just like Voyager depended upon stealing momentum from Jupiter, and like Mach Effect drive depends on stealing momentum from the Rest of the Distant Universe, likewise EMdrive would depend upon stealing momentum from the Quantum Vacuum.
Dr Rodal, I was also eager to hear your comments on what I said in the Woodward Effect thread.
1) It is easy to show that the acceleration claimed by EM Drive proponents is a huge number of orders of magnitude larger than the cosmological constant term responsible for the accelerated expansion of the Universe.
2) It is also straight forward to show that the dark energy acts such that the accelerated expansion of the universe is only felt over huge distances: billions of light years, and completely negligible over distances like the size of the EM Drive.
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#2395
by
sanman
on 23 Oct, 2017 23:33
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1) It is easy to show that the acceleration claimed by EM Drive proponents is a huge number of orders of magnitude larger than the cosmological constant term responsible for the accelerated expansion of the Universe.
But the Cosmic Microwave Background is also quite a lot weaker than the magnetron in the EMdrive.
2) It is also straight forward to show that the dark energy acts such that the accelerated expansion of the universe is only felt over huge distances: billions of light years, and completely negligible over distances like the size of the EM Drive.
How about the DeBroglie-Bohm / Pilot Wave Theory then? It's now said to be just as reasonable as Copenhagen.
Can EMdrive be said to be producing a Pilot Wave that could produce an acceleration?
Of course the frustrum is a macroscopic entity and not a quantum-sized one, so it doesn't seem like a Pilot Wave could affect it. Could Pilot Waves be affecting the photons themselves in a way that would produce an asymmetry for accelerative thrust?
https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-more-physicists-subscribe-to-pilot-wave-theoryhttps://www.quora.com/Why-dont-more-physicists-subscribe-to-pilot-wave-theory/answer/Thad-Roberts/comment/35591434Ilja Schmelzer
May 17 · 2 upvotes
Already Bohm’s original version contains a proposal for the EM field. But the EM field is guided by the Maxwell equation, thus, a relativistic equation. So, relativistic field theories exist in Bohmian versions from the start.
A point is that such dBB versions of relativistic theories have a preferred frame. This is anyway necessary - any realistic interpretation needs a preferred frame, this is simply Bell’s theorem. But with or without a preferred frame - once this does not lead to differences in observable predictions, it should not matter, even following the criteria of defenders of relativity.
"Preferred frame", to me, means space itself has a frame.
Space isn't empty - there's something there - something which we can push off of?
Maybe EMdrive can be the new "Slit Experiment" of the 21st century?
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#2396
by
RotoSequence
on 24 Oct, 2017 00:54
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Is there some possibility of a Maxwell's Demon here?
ie. some kind of Quantum Feedback Loop whereby you're able to push off the Vacuum fluctuations in a directionally biased way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_feedback
(so the Dynamic Vacuum would be the external field)
If the Quantum Vacuum is the zero energy point, that means that you should not be able to extract momentum or energy from it, because the momentum/energy gained by the EM Drive would be subtracted from the QV, which contradicts its zero point nature, so what you thought was "zero point energy" really wasn't.
Directly relating to that, PBS Spacetime has a good episode on Zero Point Energy
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#2397
by
sanman
on 24 Oct, 2017 01:09
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What a coincidence, I was just watching a video from PBS Spacetime about Pilot Wave Theory
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#2398
by
spupeng7
on 24 Oct, 2017 01:21
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Hi TheTraveller. I think I recall someone or Roger himself saying Roger thinks that before the end of 2017 he expects to have a superconducting Emdrive to demonstrate. If that recollection was right, have you heard any news relating to it?
Hi Mark,
I know Roger is working with Gilo Industries on a wingless and propless drone. Have confirmed with Gilo Cardozo that Roger is working with Gilo Industries. Gilo Industries now owns a controlling shareholding in Universal Propulsion, the JV created by Roger and Gilo. Roger has been working with Gilo Industries since 2015. Plus there is a world patent application on the cryo thruster with Gilo Cardozo as the co-inventor.
So there is movement at the station.
Uh, now I'm wondering how, a document dating back to February 2017 (I mean THIS document) may indicate that as of today there's "movement at the station"
Hi TOG,
What I shared clearly shows there is activity occurring, based on SPR statements and changes in the effective ownership of the Universal Propulsion JV. I mean why would Gilo Industries Group acquire the controlling shares in the JV, if there was not value in doing so?
Likewise why would Gilo Cardozo be listed as the co-inventor on the world patent application?
TT,
I hope you are right that their work is ongoing. My question is, is Gilo the right type of company to maximize the progress made or are they just the only ones with enough courage to give it a try?
Nevil Shute wanted to develop a new aircraft with retractable wheels (then thought to complex to be made functional). He could not find the right one so he started one himself. He was able to do this because it made sense to the bank that it could be a winner if the company was tailored to the job.
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#2399
by
spupeng7
on 24 Oct, 2017 01:27
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(...)
It's just a fact of nature that kinetic energy generated in a moving reference frame will appear as greater in some other reference frames (and lesser in others). If any form of propellentless propulsion is possible at all, then you can amplify kinetic energy by judiciously creating it from within moving or rotating reference frames and harvesting it in another. It's no more 'free energy' that needs to be explained any more than a higher relative velocity due to relative motion has to be explained as 'free velocity'. The only thing that needs to be explained is the 'problem' of how and why nature would allow any form of PP to exist which of course many folks are busy working on. To me it just like a planetary flyby maneuver whereby the universe acts as a virtual planet.
Is your actual beef with the EMDrive in general or with the EMDrive as described by TT?
Bob012345,
I don't think shifting your reference frame is going to help you extract KE from anything. If that were possible then you could make a Gyro accelerate itself, which really has been tried many times.
