-
#1920
by
Rodal
on 01 Oct, 2017 22:12
-
30W amplifier successfully mounted to the torsional pendulum. 
I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.
The two temperature sensors for the draft enclosure will be added tomorrow.
very tidy job. looks ready to go into a cubesat!
Just another thought on EMdrive from NIAC,
There was a very interesting phone presentation from the U.S. Naval Academy at NIAC on their cubesat program. Apparently they have an active program for their midshipmen (what students at USNA are called) to build and fly cubesats, mostly in conjunctions with outside research groups - public and private but generally non-commercial. They were presenting to the NIAC audience that they are looking for new projects. I have not found the video/recording of their presentation yet (just got home yesterday) but if I can find it I will post a link and or the email address for the project coordinator. (EDIT Add Time - the phone call and presentation were on Wednesday the 27th at about 1300 MDT.) I imagine people can find info by googling US Naval Academy and cubesat program but I haven't tried it yet. Anyway - I am not sure if the USNA would be ready or receptive to something as 'speculative' as an EMdrive test or perhaps Mach Effect Thruster test but if anyone is considering such an effort it might be worth exploring this program.
Herman
graybeardsyseng
EDITED - include approximate time of presentation.
presentation by US Naval Academy is the first one in this link:
https://livestream.com/viewnow/NIAC2017/videos/163439684by CDR Jeff King and Dr. Jin Kang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Satellite_Program_(United_States_Naval_Academy)
http://www.aprs.org/satstation.htmlhttps://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/technologies/navy_satellite.html
-
#1921
by
Mulletron
on 02 Oct, 2017 13:02
-
The more I study the conservation of momentum problem (that problem being aside from the gravitational induction aspect I've been learning about which may just be for extra credit towards learning about how to control gravity if the effect can become large), it's becoming apparent that the momentum issue can be exactly solved by using plain old classical mechanics. The pie in the sky thinking/ideas led me to the basics of understanding how to solve the still difficult, yet approachable, problem of how to show momentum is conserved. I know what to calculate now.
-
#1922
by
TheTraveller
on 02 Oct, 2017 14:31
-
Hi Jeremiah,
If CofE is conserved then as in all inelastic events, CofM must also be conserved. Can't have one conserved without the other being conserved.
Should add that when one side are photons, the photon velocity does not change but photon energy or effective photon mass changes.
So for the mass side, velocity changes and for the photon side, effective photon mass changes.
-
#1923
by
Ricvil
on 02 Oct, 2017 17:15
-
-
#1924
by
X_RaY
on 02 Oct, 2017 18:27
-
-
#1925
by
Mulletron
on 02 Oct, 2017 18:48
-
Hi Jeremiah,
If CofE is conserved then as in all inelastic events, CofM must also be conserved. Can't have one conserved without the other being conserved.
Should add that when one side are photons, the photon velocity does not change but photon energy or effective photon mass changes.
So for the mass side, velocity changes and for the photon side, effective photon mass changes.
I would suggest really understanding what is meant by "external force." I figured out what the external force is.
http://m.sparknotes.com/physics/linearmomentum/conservationofmomentum/section3.rhtml
-
#1926
by
Rodal
on 02 Oct, 2017 18:51
-
Hi guys.
Just a idea!!!
Pressure/tensions on the walls of cavity are diferent for TE and TM modes.
http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2008/astp13-16-2008/xiangASTP13-16-2008.pdf
High Q and localized TE and TM modes can arises as "imperfections" on electromagnetic structures.
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/ghost.modes.pdf
A unusual Tx3xx fulstrum mode appears with TE and TM modes toghether, one at each side of cavity.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39214.0;attach=1091650;sess=48891
Then,
Hi Ricvil, the idea that degenerated field pattern (mode mixing) may cause the thrust signal, was already discussed in previous threads and is still not fully rejected. The idea is great. However, regarding standard Maxwell equations the vector fields should cancle each other at least over a full cycle of 2Pi.
Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field.
-
#1927
by
M.LeBel
on 02 Oct, 2017 20:15
-
Hi guys.
Just a idea!!!
Pressure/tensions on the walls of cavity are diferent for TE and TM modes.
http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2008/astp13-16-2008/xiangASTP13-16-2008.pdf
High Q and localized TE and TM modes can arises as "imperfections" on electromagnetic structures.
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/ghost.modes.pdf
A unusual Tx3xx fulstrum mode appears with TE and TM modes toghether, one at each side of cavity.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39214.0;attach=1091650;sess=48891
Then,
Hi Ricvil, the idea that degenerated field pattern (mode mixing) may cause the thrust signal, was already discussed in previous threads and is still not fully rejected. The idea is great. However, regarding standard Maxwell equations the vector fields should cancle each other at least over a full cycle of 2Pi.
Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field.
Wow! Is it me or you just stated your belief in the impossibility of all these various propellentless attempts, EM-drive included? –
IMO- Many laws and theorem describe what happens naturally and spontaneously in the universe. But we have seen many cases where we have done, by twisting nature’s arm, things that do not happen by themselves in the universe. If we intend, once more, to twist nature’s arm into doing something that is not spontaneously happening out there, we should be cautious about the apparent limitations imposed by these laws and theorems. Because by leaving the realm of spontaneous processes, “intervention” may bring about new rules and new possibilities.
-
#1928
by
meberbs
on 02 Oct, 2017 20:24
-
Hi guys.
Just a idea!!!
Pressure/tensions on the walls of cavity are diferent for TE and TM modes.
http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2008/astp13-16-2008/xiangASTP13-16-2008.pdf
High Q and localized TE and TM modes can arises as "imperfections" on electromagnetic structures.
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/ghost.modes.pdf
A unusual Tx3xx fulstrum mode appears with TE and TM modes toghether, one at each side of cavity.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39214.0;attach=1091650;sess=48891
Then,
Hi Ricvil, the idea that degenerated field pattern (mode mixing) may cause the thrust signal, was already discussed in previous threads and is still not fully rejected. The idea is great. However, regarding standard Maxwell equations the vector fields should cancle each other at least over a full cycle of 2Pi.
Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field.
Wow! Is it me or you just stated your belief in the impossibility of all these various propellentless attempts, EM-drive included? –
IMO- Many laws and theorem describe what happens naturally and spontaneously in the universe. But we have seen many cases where we have done, by twisting nature’s arm, things that do not happen by themselves in the universe. If we intend, once more, to twist nature’s arm into doing something that is not spontaneously happening out there, we should be cautious about the apparent limitations imposed by these laws and theorems. Because by leaving the realm of spontaneous processes, “intervention” may bring about new rules and new possibilities.
Try reading his post again, paying extra attention to the parts I bolded. You have completely misunderstood his statements.
-
#1929
by
Mulletron
on 02 Oct, 2017 21:48
-
-
#1930
by
M.LeBel
on 02 Oct, 2017 21:54
-
Hi guys.
Just a idea!!!
Pressure/tensions on the walls of cavity are diferent for TE and TM modes.
http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2008/astp13-16-2008/xiangASTP13-16-2008.pdf
High Q and localized TE and TM modes can arises as "imperfections" on electromagnetic structures.
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/ghost.modes.pdf
A unusual Tx3xx fulstrum mode appears with TE and TM modes toghether, one at each side of cavity.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39214.0;attach=1091650;sess=48891
Then,
Hi Ricvil, the idea that degenerated field pattern (mode mixing) may cause the thrust signal, was already discussed in previous threads and is still not fully rejected. The idea is great. However, regarding standard Maxwell equations the vector fields should cancle each other at least over a full cycle of 2Pi.
Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field.
Wow! Is it me or you just stated your belief in the impossibility of all these various propellentless attempts, EM-drive included? –
IMO- Many laws and theorem describe what happens naturally and spontaneously in the universe. But we have seen many cases where we have done, by twisting nature’s arm, things that do not happen by themselves in the universe. If we intend, once more, to twist nature’s arm into doing something that is not spontaneously happening out there, we should be cautious about the apparent limitations imposed by these laws and theorems. Because by leaving the realm of spontaneous processes, “intervention” may bring about new rules and new possibilities.
Try reading his post again, paying extra attention to the parts I bolded. You have completely misunderstood his statements.
Sorry Meberbs but it looks the same to me even bolded. Care to give me precision for the "without the involvement of external fields" part. Maybe where I itch.
Thanks,
-
#1931
by
Rodal
on 02 Oct, 2017 22:04
-
-
#1932
by
M.LeBel
on 02 Oct, 2017 22:56
-
....
Sorry Meberbs but it looks the same to me even bolded. Care to give me precision for the "without the involvement of external fields" part. Maybe where I itch.
Thanks,
http://users.physik.fu-berlin.de/~kleinert/b6/psfiles/Chapter-7-conslaw.pdf
Also see Chapter 17 of the classic Feynman Lectures for a nice application to quantum mechanics:
http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/III_17.html
That's funny. First ref. "chapter" is 41 pages long with equations. The second ref. is no better. If/If you understand Noether's theorem, you should be able to explain it in simple words. Different words, since your first attempt did not apparently convey the message. (Not a proof of ... just as it applies to propellentless attempts, and don't give me Feynman's magnet explanation either)
Thanks,
-
#1933
by
meberbs
on 02 Oct, 2017 23:09
-
....
Sorry Meberbs but it looks the same to me even bolded. Care to give me precision for the "without the involvement of external fields" part. Maybe where I itch.
Thanks,
http://users.physik.fu-berlin.de/~kleinert/b6/psfiles/Chapter-7-conslaw.pdf
Also see Chapter 17 of the classic Feynman Lectures for a nice application to quantum mechanics:
http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/III_17.html
That's funny. First ref. "chapter" is 41 pages long with equations. The second ref. is no better. If/If you understand Noether's theorem, you should be able to explain it in simple words. Different words, since your first attempt did not apparently convey the message. (Not a proof of ... just as it applies to propellentless attempts, and don't give me Feynman's magnet explanation either)
Thanks,
You asked for a precise definition. This unsurprisingly involves lots of somewhat complicated math. Now you ask again for the (already provided) simple explanation, ignoring that by nature a simple explanation won't be precise.
I am having trouble coming to any conclusion other than that you simply are not interested in understanding. You want all the knowledge without having to do any of the thinking. Understanding will take effort on your part and you apparently aren't willing to put that in.
-
#1934
by
Mulletron
on 02 Oct, 2017 23:11
-
M.Lebel I don't understand how you can ask for precision and then ask for an explanation in words too.
-
#1935
by
M.LeBel
on 02 Oct, 2017 23:36
-
It is possible to explain this in simple words since Dr Rodal did venture in such:
"Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field."
From which my interpretation was said to be wrong. So, a simple reformulation or use of other words could correct my mis-interpretation as pertains to propellantless attempts.
Your patience is appreciated,
Thanks,
-
#1936
by
Mulletron
on 02 Oct, 2017 23:49
-
When there is no net external force acting on a system of particles the total momentum of the system is conserved.
Total momentum of a system remains constant, when the net external force acting on the system is zero.
If the net external force acting on a system of particles is zero, the linear momentum of the system is conserved.
-
#1937
by
Mulletron
on 03 Oct, 2017 00:55
-
Okay I'm starting to get the hang of it. I think there has to be two dissipation functions (or three in case of an EMdrive with a dielectric disc....and I know it's wrong to neglect the side walls) . I'm sure guys like Rodal are already experts at this; I'm teaching myself. It seems pretty straightforward.
-
#1938
by
OnlyMe
on 03 Oct, 2017 00:56
-
Hi guys.
Just a idea!!!
Pressure/tensions on the walls of cavity are diferent for TE and TM modes.
http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2008/astp13-16-2008/xiangASTP13-16-2008.pdf
High Q and localized TE and TM modes can arises as "imperfections" on electromagnetic structures.
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/ghost.modes.pdf
A unusual Tx3xx fulstrum mode appears with TE and TM modes toghether, one at each side of cavity.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39214.0;attach=1091650;sess=48891
Then,
Hi Ricvil, the idea that degenerated field pattern (mode mixing) may cause the thrust signal, was already discussed in previous threads and is still not fully rejected. The idea is great. However, regarding standard Maxwell equations the vector fields should cancle each other at least over a full cycle of 2Pi.
Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field.
I have an almost knee jerk negative reaction to statements made in the form of absolutes.., as in beginning with words like
"Nothing...". Probably because I have been caught so many times in the past, by the same... The above and much of the following discussion, reads to me as an assertion that we already know all there is to know. An arrogant position for all but the very young. I for one truly hope, there are things we have yet to learn. Things that may even surprise us and require that we re-examine, at least some of what we believe to be fundamentally true.., today.
I would agree that if an EmDrive produces thrust, it will require a bit of new physics or at least a reinterpretation of what we think we know, about physics at present. I might even agree with some personal certainty that particles inside a frustum, including bouncing and red shifting photons are not going to make the frustum move. That said, without a far better understanding of the fundamental mechanisms underlying what we refer to as inertia and gravitation, I don't believe we can actually rule out the possibility.., that we don't, yet know everything.
-
#1939
by
spupeng7
on 03 Oct, 2017 01:12
-
Hi guys.
Just a idea!!!
Pressure/tensions on the walls of cavity are diferent for TE and TM modes.
http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2008/astp13-16-2008/xiangASTP13-16-2008.pdf
High Q and localized TE and TM modes can arises as "imperfections" on electromagnetic structures.
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/ghost.modes.pdf
A unusual Tx3xx fulstrum mode appears with TE and TM modes toghether, one at each side of cavity.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39214.0;attach=1091650;sess=48891
Then,
Hi Ricvil, the idea that degenerated field pattern (mode mixing) may cause the thrust signal, was already discussed in previous threads and is still not fully rejected. The idea is great. However, regarding standard Maxwell equations the vector fields should cancle each other at least over a full cycle of 2Pi.
Nothing (whether anisotropic, inhomogeneous, etc.) that one can do solely with internal fields, internal forces, or internal particles can result in acceleration of the center of mass by itself without the involvement of external fields, as this would be a violation of Noether's theorem. Acceleration of the center of mass can only take place either by ejection of mass/energy or by involvement of an external field.
Thank you for the simplicity. I agree, which is why I think we must continue to investigate the possibility that gravity is an electromagnetic effect. Everything that happens inside the frustum is electromagnetic but only gravity can act through its walls.
If gravity is an imbalance of em forces due to the displacement of the electron from the nucleus, then there may be a difference between em fields and the action of photons. Maybe it is only photons which can be shielded, if all charges acted on all other charges, all of the time, how would the universe be any different to what we now see?
I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.