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#1900
by
Mulletron
on 28 Sep, 2017 23:13
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So there's the great Dr. Rodal in the flesh. Nice to (kind of) meet you.
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#1901
by
Mulletron
on 29 Sep, 2017 00:42
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Fireside chat was live starting (just as a test to see if it will even work) from 2300z plus one hour. I thinking that in order to accommodate our west coast community (which is 3 hours behind the east coast) that it may be better to move it up one hour to 9 EST (6 PT) because of traffic (which is awful in California) and the time it takes to get home and settled. I'm curious to see if this will be an effective video chat platform for multiple people. It's supposed to support up to 25 simultaneous video users. I'm live for testing until 0130z (and I want to make sure that I don't need to be in the loop too). All this GMT/ZULU stuff is to synchronize the community which is worldwide. I lived in Europe for a number of years so I get it.
EMdrive/MEGA/MET Fireside Chat:
https://hangouts.google.com/group/97SLYfJRS01syZDG2
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#1902
by
TheTraveller
on 29 Sep, 2017 01:17
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Interesting data, which suggests that the MEGA drive efficiency, ie Specific Force in uN/kW doubles as input power doubles.
This is NOT a characteristic of either the Shawyer EmDrive or a White QV Thruster, which both exhibit a 1:1 relationship between input power, generated force and Specific Force.
MEGA drive load impedance was selected as 200 ohm from Dr. Fearn's comment the input power was 200W. It is also assumed that the load impedance stays constant as voltage and power are varied.
While this data is primarily MEGA drive related, it does touch on the Specific Force characteristics difference between the MEGA drive and the EmDrive in regard to Specific Force vs power scaling.
This to me suggests that the physics behind the MEGA drive and the physics behind the EmDrive, no matter what you think of the theory, is different as the input power vs Specific Force scaling is different, ie EmDrive 1:1, MEGA drive 1:2.
Two P-P thrusters with very different operational characteristics.
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#1903
by
Mark7777777
on 29 Sep, 2017 08:39
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CORRECTION:
Wednesday Dr. Fearn will be giving her presentation on the Mach Effect MEGA thruster at 11:10 Mountain Time. It's available live at https://livestream.com/viewnow/NIAC2017
NIAC video:
https://livestream.com/viewnow/NIAC2017/videos/163432557 starts at approx 48:00
Dr. Fearn's NIAC presentation is now up on YouTube:
Believe Prof Tajmar has presented his paper at IAC 2017 on his MEGA drive replication.
Trust it will surface some time soon.
https://iafastro.directory/iac/paper/id/38595/summary/
Simplified theory as attached:
Apologies for non-physicist questions but:
I was wondering why she said the spaceship gets up to about .4c as that is about the limit it could survive. Is that because of space dust or something?
Also I read somewhere that as a spacecraft approaches c, the power needed to go faster tends to infinity. Does that apply here to?
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#1904
by
Mulletron
on 29 Sep, 2017 12:49
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CORRECTION:
Wednesday Dr. Fearn will be giving her presentation on the Mach Effect MEGA thruster at 11:10 Mountain Time. It's available live at https://livestream.com/viewnow/NIAC2017
NIAC video:
https://livestream.com/viewnow/NIAC2017/videos/163432557 starts at approx 48:00
Dr. Fearn's NIAC presentation is now up on YouTube:
Believe Prof Tajmar has presented his paper at IAC 2017 on his MEGA drive replication.
Trust it will surface some time soon.
https://iafastro.directory/iac/paper/id/38595/summary/
Simplified theory as attached:
Apologies for non-physicist questions but:
I was wondering why she said the spaceship gets up to about .4c as that is about the limit it could survive. Is that because of space dust or something?
Also I read somewhere that as a spacecraft approaches c, the power needed to go faster tends to infinity. Does that apply here to?
Definitely some head in the clouds thinking, and I can understand that, especially when you're presenting to a NASA crowd. It's not ultimately useful to expend so much time and resources planning lofty space missions, when the basics haven't been covered yet. The ugly reality is that we're dealing with devices here that barely produce any thrust whatsoever, and you need a carefully calibrated balance combined with statistical analysis in order to even see the signal. At 20:43 to 20:54, Dr. Fearn acknowledges the importance of the damper, and begins talking about converting from kinetic and potential energy (and back and forth), which is describing conservative force fields. The issue I want to raise is that the damper represents a nonconservative element, meaning that if you integrate the work done around a closed loop you don't end up back at zero.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/301/lectures/node59.htmlI would recommend completely dropping all the Mach effects talk, which in my opinion is an even worse tar baby being used to explain the first tar baby....how is momentum and energy conserved? In physics, we want to be able to explain things and to understand things as simply and as accurately as possible. When you say that the device is coupling with the distant matter of the universe, and sprinkle some Wheeler-Feynman absorber theory (which is not proven to be real) in for good measure, what is this saying? Does it have any meaning? Saying that it works because of Mach effects doesn't have any meaning. Where's the proof of these Mach effects? They seem like an ad-hoc means to explain away a very important problem, but now instead of there just being one problem (the conservation laws), now there's two.
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#1905
by
ThatOtherGuy
on 29 Sep, 2017 19:31
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When you finally reach the conference room, you've all the needed "makeup" but that isn't exactly what's expected (apparently) you'd better look like some "kinda/sorta" Indiana Jones or someone alike and present some "deus ex machina" idea <sigh>
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#1906
by
rq3
on 29 Sep, 2017 23:10
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When you finally reach the conference room, you've all the needed "makeup" but that isn't exactly what's expected (apparently) you'd better look like some "kinda/sorta" Indiana Jones or someone alike and present some "deus ex machina" idea <sigh>
I don't understand your post. Do you need to be in costume? "Deus ex machina" means that there is an un-needed insertion of data to force a plot into an otherwise unrealistic direction.
Can you be specific, as for example, with specific examples that you witnessed and found offensive?
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#1907
by
Mulletron
on 29 Sep, 2017 23:23
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When you finally reach the conference room, you've all the needed "makeup" but that isn't exactly what's expected (apparently) you'd better look like some "kinda/sorta" Indiana Jones or someone alike and present some "deus ex machina" idea <sigh>
I don't understand your post. Do you need to be in costume? "Deus ex machina" means that there is an un-needed insertion of data to force a plot into an otherwise unrealistic direction.
Can you be specific, as for example, with specific examples that you witnessed and found offensive?
I took it as the tendency of some (it's a human tendency really) to really dress up very simple ideas and hang on all the bells and whistles and put on a big show and wow people; but that really isn't necessary. There's no substance in that.
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#1908
by
Mulletron
on 29 Sep, 2017 23:34
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I want to introduce a new (possibly but I doubt it because it's obvious) concept that is somewhat Machian I suppose. I don't think this is in any way vague. I know that the gravitational interaction has infinite range, and I know that the universe is considered infinite, and that tells me that I'm feeling the gravitational interaction of everything, everywhere at once from all directions isotropically right here and right now, and the sum of all those gravitational forces acting on me, are zero. I don't need to even think about taking complex mathematical leaps in order to interact with the distant matter in the universe, because it's all happening right here and right now, and the same goes for anywhere I go in the universe.
I'm intentionally neglecting the obviously strong gravitational interactions from here in my neighborhood which isn't smooth and isotropic, planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.
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#1909
by
Monomorphic
on 30 Sep, 2017 01:59
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30W amplifier successfully mounted to the torsional pendulum.
I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.
The two temperature sensors for the draft enclosure will be added tomorrow.
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#1910
by
Bob Woods
on 30 Sep, 2017 03:48
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30W amplifier successfully mounted to the torsional pendulum. I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.
The two temperature sensors for the draft enclosure will be added tomorrow.
Jamie, you were sorely missed in Denver. Yet, your clearly focused efforts explains the why.
Keep up the good work...
BTW, what about humidity and atmospheric pressure? Doesn't need to be on the rig, but in the room, or maybe just the local National Weather Service readings at the time. Plus, if a furnace/ac or door(s) is located in the area you may want to make sure it's off/closed for the duration of the test runs.
Graybeardsyseng can help you on a written protocol. ;-)
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#1911
by
SteveD
on 30 Sep, 2017 08:11
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Have we heard anything about results on the Dresden mini EM-Drive?
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#1912
by
chongma
on 30 Sep, 2017 09:04
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30W amplifier successfully mounted to the torsional pendulum. I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.
The two temperature sensors for the draft enclosure will be added tomorrow.
very tidy job. looks ready to go into a cubesat!
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#1913
by
graybeardsyseng
on 30 Sep, 2017 14:47
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30W amplifier successfully mounted to the torsional pendulum. I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.
The two temperature sensors for the draft enclosure will be added tomorrow.
very tidy job. looks ready to go into a cubesat!
Just another thought on EMdrive from NIAC,
There was a very interesting phone presentation from the U.S. Naval Academy at NIAC on their cubesat program. Apparently they have an active program for their midshipmen (what students at USNA are called) to build and fly cubesats, mostly in conjunctions with outside research groups - public and private but generally non-commercial. They were presenting to the NIAC audience that they are looking for new projects. I have not found the video/recording of their presentation yet (just got home yesterday) but if I can find it I will post a link and or the email address for the project coordinator. (EDIT Add Time - the phone call and presentation were on Wednesday the 27th at about 1300 MDT.) I imagine people can find info by googling US Naval Academy and cubesat program but I haven't tried it yet. Anyway - I am not sure if the USNA would be ready or receptive to something as 'speculative' as an EMdrive test or perhaps Mach Effect Thruster test but if anyone is considering such an effort it might be worth exploring this program.
Herman
graybeardsyseng
EDITED - include approximate time of presentation.
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#1914
by
Rodal
on 30 Sep, 2017 17:13
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...
Graybeardsyseng can help you on a written protocol. ;-)
....
Herman
graybeardsyseng
EDITED - include approximate time of presentation.
Bob and Herman, great meeting you in person at the Denver NIAC symposium. Very much enjoyed our conversations. Thank you for driving all the way to Colorado
Sorry that Michelle could not make it.
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#1915
by
Bob Woods
on 30 Sep, 2017 17:48
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Bob and Herman, great meeting you in person at the Denver NIAC symposium. Very much enjoyed our conversations. Thank you for driving all the way to Colorado
Sorry that Michelle could not make it.
Ditto Jose. It was a hoot and I'm already thinking of next year. And your quick laugh and engagement were a delight.
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#1916
by
jmossman
on 30 Sep, 2017 19:50
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30W amplifier successfully mounted to the torsional pendulum. I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum.
The two temperature sensors for the draft enclosure will be added tomorrow.
Your build is coming along nicely!
Curiously you seem to have an experimenters breadboard on the backside with some components (and possible power) connections. I can see twisted wires in lots of places trying to minimize noise, but the hidden/embedded row and column connections within the breadboard may act like antenna and raise the noise floor in your power bus due to potential harmonic interactions. (i.e. power buses may pickup RF noise, and then the amplifier may amplify, or many other possible interactions)
However, simply testing what you have is probably worthwhile before undertaking further modifications to try and address speculative (and unquantified) noise sources such as that unshielded breadboard.
Good luck!
James
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#1917
by
Mulletron
on 30 Sep, 2017 20:07
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The issue I want to raise is that the damper represents a nonconservative element, meaning that if you integrate the work done around a closed loop you don't end up back at zero.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/301/lectures/node59.html
In order to make the leap from this, which does not address momentum, I think I need to treat the damper (in METS, EMdrives, and mass-spring-damper-mass systems) as the application of an external force.
I understand that there damping present in all "real" physical systems. I'm specifically talking about the rubber gasket in METS and the dielectric disc in EMdrives. Even the finite conductivity of copper is a source.
Edit: When I say "external force" I mean it as in the distinction made here and other places.
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/Lesson-2/Internal-vs-External-Forces
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#1918
by
graybeardsyseng
on 30 Sep, 2017 20:59
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...
Graybeardsyseng can help you on a written protocol. ;-)
....
Herman
graybeardsyseng
EDITED - include approximate time of presentation.
Bob and Herman, great meeting you in person at the Denver NIAC symposium. Very much enjoyed our conversations. Thank you for driving all the way to Colorado
Sorry that Michelle could not make it.
Jose,
Likewise to both you and Bob- Truly enjoyed it. Conversations were outstanding and really made me think. Plus the presentations and symposium contents were outstanding. I was extremely intrigued by Dr. Fearn's presentation and the work you and the SSI team are doing That too gave me a LOT to think about.
Like Bob - I am already looking forward to next NIAC. I may have missed it in all the data coming out in Denver but have they announced a date or location yet?
I hope Michelle is feeling better soon! .
Herman
graybeardsyseng
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#1919
by
Rodal
on 30 Sep, 2017 21:30
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Jose,
Likewise to both you and Bob- Truly enjoyed it. Conversations were outstanding and really made me think. Plus the presentations and symposium contents were outstanding. I was extremely intrigued by Dr. Fearn's presentation and the work you and the SSI team are doing That too gave me a LOT to think about.
Like Bob - I am already looking forward to next NIAC. I may have missed it in all the data coming out in Denver but have they announced a date or location yet?
I hope Michelle is feeling better soon! .
Herman
graybeardsyseng
NIAC 2018 is supposed to take place in
Boston, Massachusetts (near MIT, Harvard, Northeastern University, Boston University, etc.). I don't know the exact dates, but they are usually around the same time every year, so I would expect it to take place near the end of September 2018.
I'm showing images from both sides below. I think this is the first time I've shown the back side of the pendulum. 