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#1500
by
flux_capacitor
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:23
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Why is there an urgent need for a public demonstration? Who will benefit? Who may not benefit?
Companies all over the world that would be able to buy EmDrives from you, or from SPR Ltd, or any other firm in that business, would be glad to know this is a genuine thruster. This would help to invest money in this industry, particularly in SPR which was in bad trouble not so long ago, according to their public liquid assets. And it still may be the case, despite or because its alliance with Gilo Industries. This will change only if Gilo Cardozo delivers a working product to the market. It may happen or not. If it never happens, SPR Ltd will be financially in great trouble again.
Besides Shawyer, Gilo and a few tech companies, are you aware that the vast majority of engineers and scientists –hence private companies whose R&D departments rely on their professional advice– still think the EmDrive does not work, because it is either a scam or a systematic experimental error?
It will remain so until a working EmDrive can be monitored rotating; or when a working commercial thruster is publicly sold. Not before. The potential enormous cash will remain in investors' pockets until it happens.
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#1501
by
OnlyMe
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:25
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There are ample examples of working EmDrives developing thrust. So no need to wait for me to become a believer.
We already know that you are a believer. The purpose of a public demonstrator on a rotary test rig is not intended to prove the EmDrive is working to you of course, but to everyone else.
There are no other examples of working EmDrives:
- all EmDrives publicly known to date, from Eagleworks to TU Dresden through DIYers, develop so little force that it can still be mistaken with thermal or EM effects. Or its develops a force of the same magnitude as the axial one, but laterally (Tajmar) which ruins the whole demonstration.
- Yang Juan withdrawn her prior very high thrust measurements, stating that when the energy source is moved onto the setup (admittedly a much lighter one) and is not external anymore, the thrust force almost disappears within the noise i.e. below the resolution accuracy of her torsion pendulum. And yes I agree the setup described in her last paper was poorly designed and could not detect thrust even if it was present due to the stiffness of the three steel wires, but precisely this fact alone highlights how the the produced force is so low. A problem of low specific force you claim to have overcome.
- Shawyer's public rotary test rig, not even enclosed in a transparent cage, used an air bearing with several rotating cooling fans onboard, blowing hot air asymmetrically. It would have rotated without any EmDrive.
- Eagleworks' rotary test rig leaked video is also plagued with spurious forces that are not related to the cavity, according to Paul March himself.
Thus there is still urgent need for a public demonstrator rotary test rig, with precise data. Seems you won't provide it.
While there may have been and most likely were uncharacterized issues with Yang's first test article, affecting her initial conclusions, her later retraction appears to me to be more subjective than scientific. She never retested the original article/design. Instead she based her re-evaluation of the first experiment on results she reported from a significantly different and also flawed second experiment.
Obviously she had and has the right to change her own interpretation of any of her results and opinions. However without reconstructing the original test article and equipment.., and then addressing the issues later identified as potential sources of error, any conclusions are nothing more than unproven opinion. Had the original design been recreated it would have been easy to measure any expansion in the wave guide affecting results measured by the test equipment design. I could be mistaken but as I remember it was at least in part an unmeasured potential wave guide expansion that she attributed her later reevaluation on.
Based on what limited information I saw about Yang's experiments, they were both flawed in different ways and in neither case was sufficient information published for anyone to fully evaluate or reproduce her designs or conclusions.
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#1502
by
Taciturn
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:28
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Long time reader, first time poster.
I'd like to start by saying thank you to SeaShells and Monomorphic, as I continue to follow this thread entirely out of interest in how your DIY trials go. Please continue your efforts!
Secondly, every single time TheTraveller posts something, I stop reading for several days. The conversation inevitably deteriorates into forumgoers saying 'But TheTraveller, you've never shown a single scrap of proof that anything you say means anything beyond an effort at making yourself look important!' and TheTraveller responding 'Emdrive works and I'm totally being reasonable here, but because of <insert spurious reasons here> I will continue to not provide any evidence beyond talking alot and hoping you believe me and stop asking! I'm important and you should pay attention to me!'
This current derailment was enough for me to finally post about it. Can we please all stop paying any attention to him until he provides some evidence of actual use beyond 'Take my word for it!'?
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#1503
by
TheTraveller
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:31
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Why is there an urgent need for a public demonstration? Who will benefit? Who may not benefit?
Companies all over the world that would be able to buy EmDrives from you, or from SPR Ltd, or any other firm in that business, would be glad to know this is a genuine thruster. This would help to invest money in this industry, particularly in SPR which was in bad trouble not so long ago, according to their public liquid assets. And it still may be the case, despite or because its alliance with Gilo Industries. This will change only if Gilo delivers a working product to the market.
Besides Shawyer, Gilo and a few tech companies, are you aware that the vast majority of engineers and scientists –hence private companies whose R&D departments rely on their professional advice– still think the EmDrive does not work, because it is either a scam or a systematic experimental error?
It will remain so until a working EmDrive can be monitored rotating; or when a working commercial thruster is publicly sold. Not before. The potential enormous cash will remain in inverstors' pockets until it happens.
I know of at least 5 companies working on commercial EmDrives. Some are listed here. None will release anything until they are ready to take orders, deliver product and issue invoices.
That the rest of industry thinks the EmDrive is bogus is good news to those companies. Australia is of course me.
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#1504
by
meberbs
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:31
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I talked with Mary-Ann who did the at length interview and the guy who directed project greenglow. In both cases what they could and could not show nor say was controlled by the UK MOD. Mary-Ann told me she had to go through a security check and every question she asked Roger and his reply was agreed in advance. Said many times Roger answered too much and many retakes were required to keep his replies as per the preagreed script.
Someone shared with me in private the exact wording from a media person making this kind of claim about Shawyer needing MOD approval. I promised not to share specifics, but the wording had all the red flags of Shawyer misleading them about it. No mention of direct contact with the MOD, and the exact words from Shawyer were just indirect references hinting at MOD involvement without stating it explicitly. This is simply not how it would be handled if the MOD was involved.
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#1505
by
TheTraveller
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:38
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I talked with Mary-Ann who did the at length interview and the guy who directed project greenglow. In both cases what they could and could not show nor say was controlled by the UK MOD. Mary-Ann told me she had to go through a security check and every question she asked Roger and his reply was agreed in advance. Said many times Roger answered too much and many retakes were required to keep his replies as per the preagreed script.
Someone shared with me in private the exact wording from a media person making this kind of claim about Shawyer needing MOD approval. I promised not to share specifics, but the wording had all the red flags of Shawyer misleading them about it. No mention of direct contact with the MOD, and the exact words from Shawyer were just indirect references hinting at MOD involvement without stating it explicitly. This is simply not how it would be handled if the MOD was involved.
The IBT reported who did the lengthy interview, Mary-Ann, is not Roger. She told me the UK MOD approved every word in the script they used, they where there during the filming and she had to undergo a MOD security check.
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#1506
by
flux_capacitor
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:39
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I know of at least 5 companies working on commercial EmDrives. Some are listed here. None will release anything until they are ready to take orders, deliver product and issue invoices.
That the rest of industry thinks the EmDrive is bogus is good news to those companies. Australia is of course me.
So you finally conclude that the EmDrive tech has not been publicly proven yet, as it is, from Shawyer's mouth, still under the commercial radar of the vast majority of competitors all over the world, not even in their R&D lab!
Otherwise it would be rather 50 to 500 companies in the world. Not 5.
This is all I wanted to show. Thank you.
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#1507
by
TheTraveller
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:45
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I know of at least 5 companies working on commercial EmDrives. Some are listed here. None will release anything until they are ready to take orders, deliver product and issue invoices.
That the rest of industry thinks the EmDrive is bogus is good news to those companies. Australia is of course me.
So you finally conclude that the EmDrive tech has not been publicly proven yet, as it is, from Shawyer's mouth, still under the commercial radar of the vast majority of competitors all over the world, not even in their R&D lab!
Otherwise it would be rather 50 to 500 companies in the world. Not 5.
This is all I wanted to show. Thank you.
Forums like this and Reddit do have impact, creating high doubt level. Which is good for those doing EmDrive R&D.
Should ask yourself why Gilo Industries Group would bother to take control of Universal Propulsion? Maybe even ask Gilo Industries Group?
Nite. Nite my bed time.
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#1508
by
Chrochne
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:53
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...
Did try to arrange a face to face between Jamie and Roger when Jamie was in the UK. Roger said no point as he can't say anything about his work without MOD approval and there was no way Jamie could get permission to visit his workshop, like Jamie did with Paul at EW.
He would not agree to meet with Jamie even in a restaurant or a pub, but it was OK to show his workshop to TV cameras to the entire world, in the TV program?
Jose,
I talked with Mary-Ann who did the at length interview and the guy who directed project greenglow. In both cases what they could and could not show nor say was controlled by the UK MOD. Mary-Ann told me she had to go through a security check and every question she asked Roger and his reply was agreed in advance. Said many times Roger answered too much and many retakes were required to keep his replies as per the preagreed script.
I'm sure Jamie will confirm what I shared. I really did give it my best shot to get them together for a chat.
BTW what they showed as Roger's workshop was his storage area. We saw nothing new, none of the cryo work. None of the test rigs. Only old stuff in storage.
The flat sided thruster Roger put on the air track was vintage 2007. 1st C band build after the Demonstrator.
I confirm all the backstage information TheTraveller revealed here. He was very open with you all about this. I would not go myself into such details, because I believe time will reveal it all.
I posted several pages back that reporters that do interview with Mr. Shawyer go trough heavy scrutiny and check on every question.
I did not see such behaviour in the news paper branch ever. Especially in the West countries.
I understand that people here will never agree on the theory and that we still have very few published results, but such security checks on any information released to the public, leaves heavy doubts on my mind what they are doing it.
We can at this stage only hope that more information will be released in time.
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#1509
by
PotomacNeuron
on 12 Sep, 2017 14:54
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I know of at least 5 companies working on commercial EmDrives. Some are listed here. None will release anything until they are ready to take orders, deliver product and issue invoices.
That the rest of industry thinks the EmDrive is bogus is good news to those companies. Australia is of course me.
So you finally conclude that the EmDrive tech has not been publicly proven yet, as it is, from Shawyer's mouth, still under the commercial radar of the vast majority of competitors all over the world, not even in their R&D lab!
Otherwise it would be rather 50 to 500 companies in the world. Not 5.
This is all I wanted to show. Thank you.
Forums like this and Reddit do have impact, creating high doubt level. Which is good for those doing EmDrive R&D.
Should ask yourself why Gilo Industries Group would bother to take control of Universal Propulsion? Maybe even ask Gilo Industries Group?
...
Could that be because the acquisition helped them to secure the 30 million investment from the Chinese Kuangchi Science?
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#1510
by
Chrochne
on 12 Sep, 2017 15:02
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I know of at least 5 companies working on commercial EmDrives. Some are listed here. None will release anything until they are ready to take orders, deliver product and issue invoices.
That the rest of industry thinks the EmDrive is bogus is good news to those companies. Australia is of course me.
So you finally conclude that the EmDrive tech has not been publicly proven yet, as it is, from Shawyer's mouth, still under the commercial radar of the vast majority of competitors all over the world, not even in their R&D lab!
Otherwise it would be rather 50 to 500 companies in the world. Not 5.
This is all I wanted to show. Thank you.
Forums like this and Reddit do have impact, creating high doubt level. Which is good for those doing EmDrive R&D.
Should ask yourself why Gilo Industries Group would bother to take control of Universal Propulsion? Maybe even ask Gilo Industries Group?
...
Could that be because the acquisition helped them to secure the 30 million investment from the Chinese Kuangchi Science?
The investment from Kuang-Chi followed shortly after SPR joined forces with the Gilo Industries in the form of the Universial Propuslion. Why such company as Kung-Chi chose the Gilo Industires as its first major investment in the UK is the question. There are many similar as them, yet they chose them.
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#1511
by
Mulletron
on 12 Sep, 2017 15:42
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Why is there an urgent need for a public demonstration? Who will benefit? Who may not benefit?
Companies all over the world that would be able to buy EmDrives from you, or from SPR Ltd, or any other firm in that business, would be glad to know this is a genuine thruster. This would help to invest money in this industry, particularly in SPR which was in bad trouble not so long ago, according to their public liquid assets. And it still may be the case, despite or because its alliance with Gilo Industries. This will change only if Gilo delivers a working product to the market.
Besides Shawyer, Gilo and a few tech companies, are you aware that the vast majority of engineers and scientists –hence private companies whose R&D departments rely on their professional advice– still think the EmDrive does not work, because it is either a scam or a systematic experimental error?
It will remain so until a working EmDrive can be monitored rotating; or when a working commercial thruster is publicly sold. Not before. The potential enormous cash will remain in inverstors' pockets until it happens.
I know of at least 5 companies working on commercial EmDrives. Some are listed here. None will release anything until they are ready to take orders, deliver product and issue invoices.
That the rest of industry thinks the EmDrive is bogus is good news to those companies. Australia is of course me.
So you're manipulating this forum (and public opinion) by doing everything you can to make EMdrive look bogus? If I take the perspective of an outside observer, I see a guy who is a fervent champion (like way over the top) of EMdrive who at the same time is providing no information or actual data, and who is delivering revealed truths. This has an overall effect of making you appear "cranky" which of course makes people think this is a bunch of hooey (which it might very well be) but what you're doing is definitely helping naysayers confirm their bias. You just said that it's good news for some companies if others think EMdrives are bogus, and you're connected to at least one of those companies by your own admission. That means it's good news for you too. Also, I don't understand a couple inconsistencies. So you have developed your own technologies based on the EMdrive, which would imply that you have a greater understanding of EMdrive than the inventor. You understand it well enough to improve it. Why are Roger Shawyer's "bread crumbs" and design tips so important to you if you're the expert now? Where are your patents? You are licensing your technology or IP or whatever you've independently developed to another company right? Is the information you're providing here on NSF designed to further development of EMdrive? Why in the world would you put out the design tips from Shawyer if you're in business, and Shawyer is in business too? You say this is "old news" but don't you understand that it's very easy to aggregate seemingly old and not very useful information into something that you may not want to get out. There's a lot of red flags here TT. I feel like I'm being manipulated by your posts, like it's an ongoing information operation. Are you interested in EMdrive development or money? What's more important? If I were Shawyer, I wouldn't talk to you because you're not helping his public image. This forum (which is the go to place for EMdrive information) turns into a circus every time you post.
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#1512
by
Bob012345
on 12 Sep, 2017 15:52
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I don't understand why people can simultaneously say that gravity isn't a force (it isn't) and at the same time gravitation is a member of the fundamental force club. Probably why it hasn't been quantized yet.
Maybe it isn't quantized.
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#1513
by
Rodal
on 12 Sep, 2017 16:00
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I don't understand why people can simultaneously say that gravity isn't a force (it isn't) and at the same time gravitation is a member of the fundamental force club. Probably why it hasn't been quantized yet.
Maybe it isn't quantized.
people can simultaneously say that gravity isn't a force (it isn't)
MIT Professor Bertschinger disagrees that gravity is not a force, also the whole
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_problem has to do with the weakness of the gravitational force compared to the other forces (electromagnetic, weak and strong). It is agreed that there are "4 forces: gravity, weak, strong and electromagnetic" look deeper:
The discussions about gravity "not being a force" are pedagogical, trying people to get to understand the
geometrical nature of gravity in general relativity as arising from spacetime curvature.
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#1514
by
Bob012345
on 12 Sep, 2017 16:01
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Roger is a clever engineer, damn me for not doing a reverse engineering on the Interstellar Probe's EmDrives as he gave all the needed bread crumbs.
Bd: 2.193m
Sd: 0.938m
Len: 1.060m
Df: 0.7725
Mode: TE013
Freq: 500MHz
Cu room temp Qu: 560k <<<< amazing Qu!!!!!
YBCO 77K Qu: 1.25x10^8 (125,000,000)
Specific Force: 645N/kW
Note Roger used 304N/kW as an average force to be conservative and to compensate for lost N as KE and velocity increases.
But those are BIG drives, well big compared to 2.45GHz S band drives.
This is going to be very interesting.
Phil
It seems the Cannae drive design for the Deep Space Probe design concept is huge and has many square meters of cavity area.
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#1515
by
Mulletron
on 12 Sep, 2017 16:18
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Forums like this and Reddit do have impact, creating high doubt level. Which is good for those doing EmDrive R&D.
Should ask yourself why Gilo Industries Group would bother to take control of Universal Propulsion? Maybe even ask Gilo Industries Group?
Nite. Nite my bed time.
What the actual? Really? Maybe you shouldn't be posting here? Are you creating doubt?
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#1516
by
meberbs
on 12 Sep, 2017 16:34
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Interesting personal insults coming from a guy that totally rejects all the experimental data and suggests Roger is a scammer.
You have repeatedly demonstrated you lack of understanding of basic physics, that is a fact, not an insult.
Your accusation of me rejecting experimental evidence is simply false. There are multiple null results that you are ignoring, and every non-null result has signals within the range that can be explained by systematic errors. Shawyer has not provided details to even assess his experiments.
Enjoy your life as we will no longer communicate. No point. I did try to explain.
You did not try. I have repeatedly asked specific simple questions which you have not answered.
I think it was a very strong and uncalled for personal insult and I publicly call on the moderator to examine Meberb's behavior and rhetoric and decide if he goes too far and whether he should be allowed to continue such behavior in this group.
What exactly is the insult? TT has repeatedly gotten basic physics wrong.
Also, you know there is a report to mod button right? I don't think many mods on this forum bother looking at this thread unless someone uses it.
Edit: Also, the ultimate mod for this site has spoken recently, pointing out that someone is doing physics wrong is not against the rules:
Moderation rules are to stop members from being abusive (etc) to each other - and that's the difference between "No, that's simply not correct" and "Wow, you're such an idiot!" <---for three points, guess which one is not allowed. 
...
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#1517
by
Bob012345
on 12 Sep, 2017 16:43
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Interesting personal insults coming from a guy that totally rejects all the experimental data and suggests Roger is a scammer.
You have repeatedly demonstrated you lack of understanding of basic physics, that is a fact, not an insult.
Your accusation of me rejecting experimental evidence is simply false. There are multiple null results that you are ignoring, and every non-null result has signals within the range that can be explained by systematic errors. Shawyer has not provided details to even assess his experiments.
Enjoy your life as we will no longer communicate. No point. I did try to explain.
You did not try. I have repeatedly asked specific simple questions which you have not answered.
I think it was a very strong and uncalled for personal insult and I publicly call on the moderator to examine Meberb's behavior and rhetoric and decide if he goes too far and whether he should be allowed to continue such behavior in this group.
What exactly is the insult? TT has repeatedly gotten basic physics wrong.
Also, you know there is a report to mod button right? I don't think many mods on this forum bother looking at this thread unless someone uses it.
The insult is claiming TT is not an engineer and he is an 'insult' to engineers. That's personal. Pointing out mistakes is fine, that's not the issue at all. Have your opinion but express it with civility. What you said is basically equivalent to "Wow, you're such an idiot"
P.s. I value your thought and opinions when expressed without the judgements and insults.
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#1518
by
Chrochne
on 12 Sep, 2017 16:45
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Interesting personal insults coming from a guy that totally rejects all the experimental data and suggests Roger is a scammer.
You have repeatedly demonstrated you lack of understanding of basic physics, that is a fact, not an insult.
Your accusation of me rejecting experimental evidence is simply false. There are multiple null results that you are ignoring, and every non-null result has signals within the range that can be explained by systematic errors. Shawyer has not provided details to even assess his experiments.
Enjoy your life as we will no longer communicate. No point. I did try to explain.
You did not try. I have repeatedly asked specific simple questions which you have not answered.
I think it was a very strong and uncalled for personal insult and I publicly call on the moderator to examine Meberb's behavior and rhetoric and decide if he goes too far and whether he should be allowed to continue such behavior in this group.
Well, I sometimes wonder why Mr. Bergin did not use ban hammer size of the Atlas rocket on us all...He may yet do that. He warned us that this disscusion is getting out of hand several pages back I think.
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#1519
by
meberbs
on 12 Sep, 2017 17:37
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The insult is claiming TT is not an engineer and he is an 'insult' to engineers.
He calls himself an engineer in the very same post that he demonstrates yet again that he doesn't understand some of the most elementary physics concepts. That is in fact degrading to everyone who has actually earned the title engineer.
Reading your self-righteous barbs takes the pleasure out of being in this group for me.
This site is full of actual engineers and scientists, including many from the much praised and poorly named group "rocket scientists." It degrades the quality of the entire site when someone comes onto one section of it, claims to be part of the profession of engineering and spouts a bunch of incorrect nonsense about basic physics.
Edit: Pointing out mistakes is fine, that's not the issue at all. Have your opinion but express it with civility. What you said is basically equivalent to "Wow, you're such an idiot"
When someone makes incorrect statements, I explicitly avoid drawing any conclusions about their intelligence. When a mistake is particularly basic, and especially when said person refuses to ever try to learn from it, and simply denies the mistake, it is hard to see any positive conclusions one would draw from this, but there are alternatives to "idiot." I generally avoid listing any of these conclusions, other than the general and relevant "does not understand physics." A sub part of that conclusion, when referring to high school level physics concepts is "not an engineer or physicist."
