SpaceX Must Pay $4 Million for Thousands of Underpaid Employees

[MATTBLAK]

I know two people who work there and the anecdotes about blisteringly hard work, long hours and burnout are true   I want this great company to succeed in every way, for a long time to come. And because they have built an amazing team - Elon and his management team need to work just as hard to reward and retain them.

[Elvis in Space]

I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the early 1960's I suspect you would see this differently.

Born in 1963 and I was thinking about what you said exactly. When I got my first "real" job after my second time through college I went to work for an enormous blue computing entity known around the world. It was a dream come true and I can't say enough good things about working for them. I knew one way to get ahead there was to work harder than everyone else and that's what I did. The year before I left I was away from home three weeks out of every four. That work ethic was taught to me by people who had worked hard not just to get ahead but to survive depression and war.

Somewhere deep in the culture at Spacex I suspect there are those who see their goals in similar fashion. It's not about success in a material sense but about overcoming the forces that have kept us glued to this rock. Money isn't the only motivator. Not everyone will get that.

As others have said this is no great amount of money for the numbers involved.

[IainMcClatchie]

I suspect long hours have been common for young people in hot projects forever.

I worked at Silicon Graphics in the 1990s, for the first two years, I worked on the R8000 project, which was the CPU that finally sunk Cray Research.  CPUs take five years to design and sometime during the final year you have the deathmarch to tapeout.  Ours was nine months long.  Nine months of 6 days/week, 100 hours/week, breakfast, lunch, and dinner at work, lots of Sunday work.  Many of the single guys were working closer to 120 hours/week.

My girlfriend at the time worked at Bain Consulting.  6 days/week minimum.  If you count the travel time (she commuted weekly from Boston to Texas), she was around 100 hours/week too.  We used to compare notes to see who was making less per hour.

Google is more like 50 or 60 hours/week, but no breaks.  At SGI, once we taped out, my boss told me he didn't want to see me at work for about a month.  From a time POV, that doesn't even out, but it was pretty great anyway.

It's a very team-specific thing.  I have a hard time believing all 10,000 employees at SpaceX are doing this.

[MATTBLAK]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

[IanThePineapple]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

SpaceX has that goal too

[okan170]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

[Space Ghost 1962]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

I've yet to encounter any launch vendor/provider that doesn't work hard. Please enlighten me otherwise, I'd love to hear how they accomplish it.

[cppetrie]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

This isn't just some billionaire's dream. It's their dream, too. It is shared by many. He just happens to be one of the few on earth with that dream and the means to fuel chasing it. The employees share that vision, or they wouldn't be there working that hard. That's true for all companies. Either you share the vision and work to support it or you don't and you leave (or preferably from the company's point of view, you never start working there).

[Lar]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

(fan)
It's the dream of a LOT of people, and the deadline isn't arbitrary, it's before the window closes. We don't know how long we have before we descend into resource scarcity driven savagery, or whatever. But it's a possibility that it's not too long.

Like Elvis, I worked for that blue company (and I'm back, it's my second stint)... Passion is a thing. How much passion you want to devote is a personal decision but "dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline" is kinda snarky and misses the point.

[Nomadd]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

I think you miss the point. They aren't working to make his dreams come true. They're working to make their dreams come true. Most of these people have probably been dreaming of space and other worlds since they came across their first science fiction book at 8 years old.
 A lot of people seem to think of work as an unavoidable necessity, and that the key to a good life is to get things with as little effort as humanly possible. That's a luxury you have when times are easy. It doesn't matter. They don't matter. The dumb suckers who put in 12 hours a day to make their dreams something besides wishful thinking and the ones who put more into the world than they take matter.

[AncientU]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

(fan)
It's the dream of a LOT of people, and the deadline isn't arbitrary, it's before the window closes. We don't know how long we have before we descend into resource scarcity driven savagery, or whatever. But it's a possibility that it's not too long.

Like Elvis, I worked for that blue company (and I'm back, it's my second stint)... Passion is a thing. How much passion you want to devote is a personal decision but "dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline" is kinda snarky and misses the point.

Tom Mueller, possible the best rocket engine designer in the US, interviewed last week:

“Who do I find inspirational?” Hmm. Elon, of course. <laughter from crowd> He’s a huge influence on me. When I left TRW, I thought, “If we fail”--- which at the time I thought was a high probability because nobody had done this— “I’ll just go back to TRW.” So I didn’t burn any bridges. But once I saw how he thought and how he operated and— I became an entrepreneur. He influenced me so much, you know, there was no way I could go back to working for a big, bureaucratic company like Northrop Grumman. So it was quite profound. And the way that I deal with life, I think much differently now, just because of the Elon influence. And I, uh, you know, I live a lot bigger. I make bolder decisions, I take higher risks, and, you know, I’m not this conservative TRW engineer that I was that I was when I first met Elon. I’m an entrepreneur. So Elon’s probably my biggest influence, for sure.

Some are content with being that TRW engineer working in a big bureaucratic company...
Some are not.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42923.0

[ArbitraryConstant]

I've yet to encounter any launch vendor/provider that doesn't work hard. Please enlighten me otherwise, I'd love to hear how they accomplish it.

I was just reading a thread over on the ULA forum with well attested references to mandatory unpaid overtime and burnout. Probably less regulation in the states where ULA has most of the workforce, so it's not even necessarily better, just not a winnable lawsuit.

Seems to be where the industry is at right now. Not a lot of money to go around and even bigger demands. SpaceX doesn't need anyone not on the payroll to defend their labor practices and if the employees think they can improve their working conditions and recover some lost wages, that's their call.

The one observation I have is that people have been commenting on people burning out and leaving SpaceX after 1-2 years for a lot longer than 1-2 years. Whatever their employee churn is they've been sustaining it for quite a while through worse times than this. Whatever combination they have of hiring fast enough to replace and knowledge retention in spite of the churn does seem to be working, or at least, not failing often enough to derail the company.

[MATTBLAK]

The Apollo contractor teams used to work bloody hard. But then again; they had landing on another World as their goal...

The process of working to help your country achieve a goal as a part of an overarching cold war against the Soviet Union is also perhaps a somewhat stronger motivation for this than working to help the dreams of a specific billionaire come true on an arbitrary deadline.

Ian Pineapple is right, but yours is the context I meant.

[IRobot]

Motivation is a key to a company's successs and comes mainly from 4 factors:
- enjoying the task
- friendly work atmosphere
- recognition
- money

SpaceX might not pay very well, but I am sure it makes up on the other 3.

Spot on. It is a combination of these factors. Also, many studies of workplace satisfaction find these four are ordered more or less in the order you've put them in.

Glad to know that! I just spent the weekend coming up with this list to argue my boss on Monday for a better salary raise!

[AncientU]

I've yet to encounter any launch vendor/provider that doesn't work hard. Please enlighten me otherwise, I'd love to hear how they accomplish it.

I was just reading a thread over on the ULA forum with well attested references to mandatory unpaid overtime and burnout. Probably less regulation in the states where ULA has most of the workforce, so it's not even necessarily better, just not a winnable lawsuit.

Seems to be where the industry is at right now. Not a lot of money to go around and even bigger demands. SpaceX doesn't need anyone not on the payroll to defend their labor practices and if the employees think they can improve their working conditions and recover some lost wages, that's their call.

The one observation I have is that people have been commenting on people burning out and leaving SpaceX after 1-2 years for a lot longer than 1-2 years. Whatever their employee churn is they've been sustaining it for quite a while through worse times than this. Whatever combination they have of hiring fast enough to replace and knowledge retention in spite of the churn does seem to be working, or at least, not failing often enough to derail the company.

Sustain?
They are growing by leaps and bounds.

[Oli]

It's not just SpaceX.  There are different work cultures.  Thankfully.
Lawyers in the top firms work insane hours for many years in a quest to make Partner.  Those who don't have little to show for their sacrifice.
Training to become MDs, young doctors work insanely long shifts and long hours qualifying to become doctors.  Thankfully, most make it.
Then there's the Silicon Valley startup culture that most nearly approximates SpaceX.  Though SpaceX is no longer a startup, it exudes that culture.  As a young engineer I worked SpaceX type hours on my first jobs.  Developed a reputation that got me jobs later as those initial companies crashed & burned.  Most engineers do not choose to do this. People are different.  Even after I stopped working SpaceX hours I still in many jobs worked long weeks.  I was motivated by the excitement of working on stuff that nobody else had yet built.  That was my personal motivator, never the paycheck.
Bottom line there are people in this free country who choose to work brutal weeks because they choose the goal and are motivated to do it.  Most have enough of this after a few years or after they have a family.  I see nothing wrong with this and do not understand the hostility towards these choices people make.

Isn't it a shame that people have to stop working at such exciting places because they are burned out or have a family? Why must they sacrifice life for work? I'm not opposed to the choices these people make at all, I just think everybody would be better off with reasonable working hours. 20% lower labor costs won't make or break a good idea and I'm sure SpaceX' success is not based (exclusively) on low wages, in fact to the extent it is it is undeserved, IMO.

[gospacex]

I only asked this in particular because there seems to be a rising anti-SpaceX sentiment going on now and I'm worried that the company could lose its support for its long-term goals.

Aerospace engineer here.

SpaceX and Elon Musk get endless amounts of adulation on Reddit because they do cool things, but it's well known in my field (aerospace engineering) that SpaceX is basically the sweatshop of the aerospace industry.

I would say that I need actual substance to this claim before I can judge this statement. What is "sweatshop"? You think that if you work for more than 4 hours without a break, it qualifies as "sweatshop"? If you need to be at work on Sunday because launch day happened to fall on Sunday, it's now a personal sacrifice?

I have known over a dozen of my peers who took jobs at SpaceX, none of them stayed with the company for more than 2 years, and most of them were gone after 1, feeling as if they've nearly been worked to death.

I have an IBM support center nearby which has a ~14% annual turnower rate for employees, since working atmosphere there is ridiculous (boring, over-formalized, "procedure is everything", not to mention having to deal with irate customer calls). I take it IBM is now a "sweatshop"?

I would never recommend working there to any engineer coming up, there are plenty of great opportunities out there that will let you feel happy in your life, happy in your work, and proud to build a career with the company.

Exactly. If your goal is to "make a career", don't go to SpaceX. Go there if you are crazy mechanic or crazy software guy who wants to do amazing and historic stuff, but does not particularly like becoming a manager (the "career").

You work damn hard in school to become an engineer so that you can be happy by being the nerd you love to be, not by having your love of engineering exploited so that you can be worked to death to enrich a corporation.

Again the "working to death" bs. I already joked about "secret factory where people work for food" to ridicule this phrase.
Does anyone REALLY claim that working at SpaceX even in a slightest way comparable to "working to death"?
SpaceX _does pay the salary_, right?
And this salary is _much larger than minimum wage_, I suspect? (even though I still would be happy to see actual numbers)

[alang]

I only asked this in particular because there seems to be a rising anti-SpaceX sentiment going on now and I'm worried that the company could lose its support for its long-term goals.

Aerospace engineer here.

SpaceX and Elon Musk get endless amounts of adulation on Reddit because they do cool things, but it's well known in my field (aerospace engineering) that SpaceX is basically the sweatshop of the aerospace industry.

I would say that I need actual substance to this claim before I can judge this statement. What is "sweatshop"? You think that if you work for more than 4 hours without a break, it qualifies as "sweatshop"? If you need to be at work on Sunday because launch day happened to fall on Sunday, it's now a personal sacrifice?

I have known over a dozen of my peers who took jobs at SpaceX, none of them stayed with the company for more than 2 years, and most of them were gone after 1, feeling as if they've nearly been worked to death.

I have an IBM support center nearby which has a ~14% annual turnower rate for employees, since working atmosphere there is ridiculous (boring, over-formalized, "procedure is everything", not to mention having to deal with irate customer calls). I take it IBM is now a "sweatshop"?

I would never recommend working there to any engineer coming up, there are plenty of great opportunities out there that will let you feel happy in your life, happy in your work, and proud to build a career with the company.

Exactly. If your goal is to "make a career", don't go to SpaceX. Go there if you are crazy mechanic or crazy software guy who wants to do amazing and historic stuff, but does not particularly like becoming a manager (the "career").

You work damn hard in school to become an engineer so that you can be happy by being the nerd you love to be, not by having your love of engineering exploited so that you can be worked to death to enrich a corporation.

Again the "working to death" bs. I already joked about "secret factory where people work for food" to ridicule this phrase.
Does anyone REALLY claim that working at SpaceX even in a slightest way comparable to "working to death"?
SpaceX _does pay the salary_, right?
And this salary is _much larger than minimum wage_, I suspect? (even though I still would be happy to see actual numbers)

I've dealt with an IBM support centre. One chap probably thought he was being helpful by saying something like "I'll close this ticket now but you can always call again and ask questions about this issue" . I foolishly tried that and got a surprised voice condescending to me that it was a closed item.
The point of this is that the advantage of procedure for the customer supplier relationship is consistency. Even if it's consistently not very good you know what you are getting, and that's good for some aspects of life. I only use their online form every couple of years to raise a ticket when desperate, when I can remember how to do it, so it works for them as well.
IBM provide a relatively stable product compared to others and that is what is being paid for. I suspect that the workers and customers of spaced out up with the instability because they think the overall future potential benefits outweigh the present wild ride.

[mulp]

I know two people who work there and the anecdotes about blisteringly hard work, long hours and burnout are true   I want this great company to succeed in every way, for a long time to come. And because they have built an amazing team - Elon and his management team need to work just as hard to reward and retain them.

Is it worse than farm labor, food processing like slaughterhouse and fresh produce processing and packaging, and food service like busboy and kitchen staff?

[RotoSequence]

I know two people who work there and the anecdotes about blisteringly hard work, long hours and burnout are true   I want this great company to succeed in every way, for a long time to come. And because they have built an amazing team - Elon and his management team need to work just as hard to reward and retain them.

Is it worse than farm labor, food processing like slaughterhouse and fresh produce processing and packaging, and food service like busboy and kitchen staff?

If putting in the time and effort to get a degree in engineering only bumps up your paycheck without reducing your expected labor input or improving your work-life balance, something has gone terribly wrong.