SpaceX Must Pay $4 Million for Thousands of Underpaid Employees

[Pipcard]

https://www.inverse.com/article/31478-spacex-settles-underpaid-workers-lawsuit-for-4-million

I already knew about how SpaceX wasn't a perfect company, but this time something is actually being done here.

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

[rockets4life97]

This must refer to hourly employees who are required to be given breaks. I expect the hourly employees are the technicians and operators in the factory. Also, don't forget the stock options -- something most companies with comparable jobs aren't offering.

Arguably, most of innovation (e.g. engine design, reusability, etc.) is coming from the engineers not the technicians. Salaried employees (like engineers) manage their own breaks and hours. It is well known that the engineers at SpaceX work long hours which makes them comparably underpaid. However, it seems like they find the work satisfying and the pay adequate -- otherwise they would go somewhere else.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

$4 million is a pretty small amount for SpaceX. As the article says, the key issue now is will SpaceX change its working practices?

[guckyfan]

$4 million is a pretty small amount for SpaceX. As the article says, the key issue now is will SpaceX change its working practices?

According to a reddit post they adjusted their rules almost 2 years ago.

[Ludus]

https://www.inverse.com/article/31478-spacex-settles-underpaid-workers-lawsuit-for-4-million

I already knew about how SpaceX wasn't a perfect company, but this time something is actually being done here.

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

I don't think this story applies to the idea of SpaceX employees burning out. As the story suggests, California has more regulation and statutory protection of hourly workers than most states. The employees burning out would be salaried with less regulation about hours/pay.

My main take from the story is that SpaceX labor practices are under pretty close scrutiny. This was a pretty minor issue.

[JazzFan]

https://www.inverse.com/article/31478-spacex-settles-underpaid-workers-lawsuit-for-4-million

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

This happens across all industries and has been a practice since jobs were invented.  SpaceX is not the first company to be sued around employee rights and compensation.

[Nomadd]

 During our national disaster responses, we started avoiding the use of California employees when possible because of the rules they worked under. They would consistently claim penalty pay for going past California and union  mandated break and hours rules, which they were responsible for enforcing themselves since it wasn't a factory environment with supervisors telling you what to do every minute. State regulations were often contradictory and impossible to follow. For instance, there was no way to have intrinsically safe generators because of conflicting environmental and safety laws. Just like with EPA and OSHA rules during spills, we'd have to break the laws and hope it didn't come back on us.

[gospacex]

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

I think the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive is <magic>

edit/Lar: on second thought, no.

[Lar]

Asking the same question again is probably not the best way to stay on topic.  Even if you asked it in the thread starter post. If you want to ask it again, ask it in the thread you started it in... with some justification for why you didn't agree with the answers you got, or new info.  The FB version of this thread got somewhat low value, IMHO. Do better.

And try to keep the volcano lair stuff secret ok?

[alang]

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

I think the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive is a secret underground factory with slaves laboring 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for food only.

Go easy on the Mittelwerk jokes or we'll all be moderated.

More seriously, if I was young I'd want to work for SpaceX for a while. Then I'd go somewhere else with that on my CV to make enough money to be able to buy a ticket.

[IRobot]

Motivation is a key to a company's successs and comes mainly from 4 factors:
- enjoying the task
- friendly work atmosphere
- recognition
- money

SpaceX might not pay very well, but I am sure it makes up on the other 3.

[cppetrie]

Motivation is a key to a company's successs and comes mainly from 4 factors:
- enjoying the task
- friendly work atmosphere
- recognition
- money

SpaceX might not pay very well, but I am sure it makes up on the other 3.

Spot on. It is a combination of these factors. Also, many studies of workplace satisfaction find these four are ordered more or less in the order you've put them in.

[gospacex]

To know better what we actually are talking about, how much "ordinary" SpaceXer get paid?
Someone who has no subordinates, but who is doing some work actually related a spaceflight, not the guy who vacuums the office.
Welding some parts of Merlins, perhaps.

[Pipcard]

I only asked this in particular because there seems to be a rising anti-SpaceX sentiment going on now and I'm worried that the company could lose its support for its long-term goals.

Aerospace engineer here.

SpaceX and Elon Musk get endless amounts of adulation on Reddit because they do cool things, but it's well known in my field (aerospace engineering) that SpaceX is basically the sweatshop of the aerospace industry.

I've posted on this topic a few times in the past and always get downvoted into oblivion by armchair rocket scientists who counter with some line like "the sacrifice of the employees is the cost necessary to make us a multiplanetary civilization!" I always think "easy for you to say, bud, our industry isn't the Kerbal Space Program game you downloaded off Steam." It's hard to speak out against the massive cult of personality Elon Musk enjoys on Reddit.

I have known over a dozen of my peers who took jobs at SpaceX, none of them stayed with the company for more than 2 years, and most of them were gone after 1, feeling as if they've nearly been worked to death. They went on to companies that pay better, treat their employees better, and still let them work on cool stuff. Others have countered "well... they get such great experience there that they can get better jobs when they leave SpaceX!" This is also a load of shit because way more of my peers found great jobs with great benefits and great career growth prospects without serving time in the sweatshop.

I would never recommend working there to any engineer coming up, there are plenty of great opportunities out there that will let you feel happy in your life, happy in your work, and proud to build a career with the company. You work damn hard in school to become an engineer so that you can be happy by being the nerd you love to be, not by having your love of engineering exploited so that you can be worked to death to enrich a corporation.

Edit: I hope you read this post in Morgan Freeman's voice.

[philw1776]

It's not just SpaceX.  There are different work cultures.  Thankfully.
Lawyers in the top firms work insane hours for many years in a quest to make Partner.  Those who don't have little to show for their sacrifice.
Training to become MDs, young doctors work insanely long shifts and long hours qualifying to become doctors.  Thankfully, most make it.
Then there's the Silicon Valley startup culture that most nearly approximates SpaceX.  Though SpaceX is no longer a startup, it exudes that culture.  As a young engineer I worked SpaceX type hours on my first jobs.  Developed a reputation that got me jobs later as those initial companies crashed & burned.  Most engineers do not choose to do this. People are different.  Even after I stopped working SpaceX hours I still in many jobs worked long weeks.  I was motivated by the excitement of working on stuff that nobody else had yet built.  That was my personal motivator, never the paycheck.
Bottom line there are people in this free country who choose to work brutal weeks because they choose the goal and are motivated to do it.  Most have enough of this after a few years or after they have a family.  I see nothing wrong with this and do not understand the hostility towards these choices people make.

[mme]

https://www.inverse.com/article/31478-spacex-settles-underpaid-workers-lawsuit-for-4-million

I already knew about how SpaceX wasn't a perfect company, but this time something is actually being done here.

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

No.

Then how do you explain this?

Aerospace engineer here.

SpaceX and Elon Musk get endless amounts of adulation on Reddit because they do cool things, but it's well known in my field (aerospace engineering) that SpaceX is basically the sweatshop of the aerospace industry.

I've posted on this topic a few times in the past and always get downvoted into oblivion by armchair rocket scientists who counter with some line like "the sacrifice of the employees is the cost necessary to make us a multiplanetary civilization!" I always think "easy for you to say, bud, our industry isn't the Kerbal Space Program game you downloaded off Steam." It's hard to speak out against the massive cult of personality Elon Musk enjoys on Reddit.

I have known over a dozen of my peers who took jobs at SpaceX, none of them stayed with the company for more than 2 years, and most of them were gone after 1, feeling as if they've nearly been worked to death. They went on to companies that pay better, treat their employees better, and still let them work on cool stuff. Others have countered "well... they get such great experience there that they can get better jobs when they leave SpaceX!" This is also a load of shit because way more of my peers found great jobs with great benefits and great career growth prospects without serving time in the sweatshop.

I would never recommend working there to any engineer coming up, there are plenty of great opportunities out there that will let you feel happy in your life, happy in your work, and proud to build a career with the company. You work damn hard in school to become an engineer so that you can be happy by being the nerd you love to be, not by having your love of engineering exploited so that you can be worked to death to enrich a corporation.

Edit: I hope you read this post in Morgan Freeman's voice.

How do I explain the statement of someone that never worked at SpaceX bad mouthing SpaceX supposedly based on "dozens" anecdotal stories? I don't bother. I scanned that reddit thread and for all the agreement that SpaceX was a horrible place to work, I didn't see anyone who had actually ever worked there. I did see a lot of "people are saying," "I knew a guy," "I'm tired of all the SpaceX/Elon Musk hype" comments though.

I'm not saying there aren't people that hated working there. It's a big company and we know it's aggressive so we know people do work long hours. Some people will hate that. Some people will have bad managers. Some people will not fit in and will blame the company for what is a bad fit. Some people will suck at their jobs and blame the environment.

For every person that hates working at SpaceX and tells a story to a guy that tells a story to a guy, how many think it's a fine job? How many think it's a pretty good job? How many think it's an amazing job? You won't hear from most of them. They're too busy doing what they want to do.

I've worked in plenty of high pressure jobs and some people hate that and some people love it. The haters tend to be the vocal ones.

[alang]

I only asked this in particular because there seems to be a rising anti-SpaceX sentiment going on now and I'm worried that the company could lose its support for its long-term goals.

Aerospace engineer here.

SpaceX and Elon Musk get endless amounts of adulation on Reddit because they do cool things, but it's well known in my field (aerospace engineering) that SpaceX is basically the sweatshop of the aerospace industry.

I've posted on this topic a few times in the past and always get downvoted into oblivion by armchair rocket scientists who counter with some line like "the sacrifice of the employees is the cost necessary to make us a multiplanetary civilization!" I always think "easy for you to say, bud, our industry isn't the Kerbal Space Program game you downloaded off Steam." It's hard to speak out against the massive cult of personality Elon Musk enjoys on Reddit.

I have known over a dozen of my peers who took jobs at SpaceX, none of them stayed with the company for more than 2 years, and most of them were gone after 1, feeling as if they've nearly been worked to death. They went on to companies that pay better, treat their employees better, and still let them work on cool stuff. Others have countered "well... they get such great experience there that they can get better jobs when they leave SpaceX!" This is also a load of shit because way more of my peers found great jobs with great benefits and great career growth prospects without serving time in the sweatshop.

I would never recommend working there to any engineer coming up, there are plenty of great opportunities out there that will let you feel happy in your life, happy in your work, and proud to build a career with the company. You work damn hard in school to become an engineer so that you can be happy by being the nerd you love to be, not by having your love of engineering exploited so that you can be worked to death to enrich a corporation.

Edit: I hope you read this post in Morgan Freeman's voice.

In some ways the criticism of the working culture is encouraging. People are stopping saying what is being attempted is impossible and just criticising the method. In that sense Musk has already partly succeeded.

I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the early 1960's I suspect you would see this differently.

[RedLineTrain]

I only asked this in particular because there seems to be a rising anti-SpaceX sentiment going on now and I'm worried that the company could lose its support for its long-term goals.

SpaceX is ranked extremely highly by its employees at Glassdoor.  Equivalent to Google, superior to Apple, very superior to ULA and Arianespace.

[cppetrie]

https://www.inverse.com/article/31478-spacex-settles-underpaid-workers-lawsuit-for-4-million

I already knew about how SpaceX wasn't a perfect company, but this time something is actually being done here.

Let me ask this question again - is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

No.

Then how do you explain this?

Aerospace engineer here.

SpaceX and Elon Musk get endless amounts of adulation on Reddit because they do cool things, but it's well known in my field (aerospace engineering) that SpaceX is basically the sweatshop of the aerospace industry.

I've posted on this topic a few times in the past and always get downvoted into oblivion by armchair rocket scientists who counter with some line like "the sacrifice of the employees is the cost necessary to make us a multiplanetary civilization!" I always think "easy for you to say, bud, our industry isn't the Kerbal Space Program game you downloaded off Steam." It's hard to speak out against the massive cult of personality Elon Musk enjoys on Reddit.

I have known over a dozen of my peers who took jobs at SpaceX, none of them stayed with the company for more than 2 years, and most of them were gone after 1, feeling as if they've nearly been worked to death. They went on to companies that pay better, treat their employees better, and still let them work on cool stuff. Others have countered "well... they get such great experience there that they can get better jobs when they leave SpaceX!" This is also a load of shit because way more of my peers found great jobs with great benefits and great career growth prospects without serving time in the sweatshop.

I would never recommend working there to any engineer coming up, there are plenty of great opportunities out there that will let you feel happy in your life, happy in your work, and proud to build a career with the company. You work damn hard in school to become an engineer so that you can be happy by being the nerd you love to be, not by having your love of engineering exploited so that you can be worked to death to enrich a corporation.

Edit: I hope you read this post in Morgan Freeman's voice.

How do I explain the statement of someone that never worked at SpaceX bad mouthing SpaceX supposedly based on "dozens" anecdotal stories? I don't bother. I scanned that reddit thread and for all the agreement that SpaceX was a horrible place to work, I didn't see anyone who had actually ever worked there. I did see a lot of "people are saying," "I knew a guy," "I'm tired of all the SpaceX/Elon Musk hype" comments though.

I'm not saying there aren't people that hated working there. It's a big company and we know it's aggressive so we know people do work long hours. Some people will hate that. Some people will have bad managers. Some people will not fit in and will blame the company for what is a bad fit. Some people will suck at their jobs and blame the environment.

For every person that hates working at SpaceX and tells a story to a guy that tells a story to a guy, how many think it's a fine job? How many think it's a pretty good job? How many think it's an amazing job? You won't hear from most of them. They're too busy doing what they want to do.

I've worked in plenty of high pressure jobs and some people hate that and some people love it. The haters tend to be the vocal ones.

Exactly. Their workplace practices of long hours and less pay will only be an issue if their is a shortage of people to fill the jobs they have (no evidence of that ATM) or public opinion sways so hard against them for it that they have a public relations issue (no evidence of that either ATM). We really don't know what their compensation practices are. Stock options that are potentially worth millions in a few years could be part of their packages. And as stated, it isn't just about $. Many of us work countless hours on projects because they matter to us individually. Most of us actually spend money to be able to spend countless hours working on stuff that matters to us. They're called hobbies. Some people are lucky enough to get paid for their hobbies by making a job/career out of them. Lucky are those few.

[Ekramer]

is burning out young, underpaid workers the real reason why SpaceX is able to be so competitive and innovative?

Sorry, the article doesn't doesn't support your assertion.  Getting underpaid by $500 over the course of a few years is not much more than a rounding error in time sheet calculations.  A worker could claw that time back by taking a couple extra bathroom breaks a week.  The lede of the article is "after an extremely detailed investigation, SpaceX gets a 9.9 out of 10 for compliance with the strictest employment laws in the country."