SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION

[Hauerg]

According to the timeline, GNC "Guidance, Navigation & Control" bay door opens.

Are these photos taken from ISS?

No other way.

[eeergo]

Ah yes, the typical post-flight commentary on NSF we all have come to love. You all get a cookie - what would SpaceX do without you guys spotting critical malfunctions!?

Something I always loved from Shuttle postlaunch commentary in this forum, and which really made it stand out far above others, was the nice technical discussion on potential items on interest we could spot from the public video feeds, and the fact-checking with DAT reports days later. This was always civil, at least within the informed people that cared to discuss it technically and not use this amateur "spotting" as a way to advance agendas. In fact, it was very enlightening as items of interest were a way of getting good insight into technical details.

In the name of sacrosanct "proprietary rights", it seems it's now almost bad taste to even fantasize about getting a bit of this kind of access, to the point of space enthusiasts self-censoring themselves over it, or trying to censor others. Except when analyzing NASA it seems.

This is neither scientific nor does it make sense, as long as the discussion isn't about bashing (or aggrandizing).

There was a washer, or some object that could raise suspicions a washer was freed from the first second stage. This would surely be a DAT item in STS times (have a look at what minutiae their reports covered). This is a healthy attitude IMHO, as opposed to trying to shut people up from discussing obvious (probably harmless) potential anomalies seen on camera, just because it's some private company and we have to be more worried about their "privacy" than we'd be for anyone else.

edit/gongora: corrected stage number from which debris may have been spotted.

[Lar]

The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.

... because ice never forms in toroids?

You... I....
Words fail me.
You believe what you want to believe, it must be nice in there

Ice?, washer? Washer made of ice? We'll probably never know. No need to be rude about.

All I'm saying is that we have had multiple "something came out" speculation-fests from things spotted in vids of prior launches... I'm open minded about what this one is. My comment was intended to elicit some discussion about why it can't be ice.


Edit: One BIG reason might be that there isn't a place where ice would form in the space between S2 and the trunk, unlike in the interstage....

That said I agree with eeergo, well informed, thoughtful, and polite speculation is one of the things we do well around here. That and reconstructing things from clues (never forget it was a team of NSF boffins that reconstructed the landing video after SpaceX gave up...)...

[Lars-J]

(never forget it was a team of NSF boffins that reconstructed the landing video after SpaceX gave up...)...

Yeah, but while that was a fun project, it was ultimately meaningless in a historical context. SpaceX gave up on it because they knew they would get much better footage soon, and they did. So let’s not exaggerate it as some sort of service to humanity.

[punder]

In service to humanity, I must report that a flat, circular object floated loose in the second stage at Dragon separation.

If you zoom in, you can clearly see a SpaceX "X" in the center of the object.

 

[Lar]

(never forget it was a team of NSF boffins that reconstructed the landing video after SpaceX gave up...)...

Yeah, but while that was a fun project, it was ultimately meaningless in a historical context. SpaceX gave up on it because they knew they would get much better footage soon, and they did. So let’s not exaggerate it as some sort of service to humanity.

Tough crowd. Even when I'm trying to walk back my initial skepticism[1], you bust my chops. But no, I don't agree, that vid did provide useful info, and it got a shout out from Elon. Polio vaccine level service to humanity? no. But service to humanity nonetheless.

So what is this thing? Washers typically don't come loose unless the nut holding them on comes loose, was that just missed? r is it something else like a spacer?

1 - actually, I just wanted to use "boffins" in a sentence

[oiorionsbelt]

So what is this thing? Washers typically don't come loose unless the nut holding them on comes loose, was that just missed? r is it something else like a spacer?

Just before the floating washer there was this picture of the bottom of the Dragon.
 What is this? Does it come off at Dragon sep? Those washers look familiar.

[Rocket Science]

I thought it was just a "seal" from the stage attach points... Alert the villagers at SpaceX...

[LouScheffer]

All I'm saying is that we have had multiple "something came out" speculation-fests from things spotted in vids of prior launches... I'm open minded about what this one is. My comment was intended to elicit some discussion about why it can't be ice.

Having stuff come out in zero gee is hardly wild conspiracy thinking.   ISS crew wear masks when entering new space, so it's considered a plausible occurence.  The FAA requires circuits to be hardened against it.  It happened on the Blue Origin flight just a few days ago.  It happened on Apollo flights - here from Apollo 14:

The next issue was floating debris in the LM cabin. Both the LM and CM are tumbled after construction(must have been an interesting sight) to loosen any small bits of junk that shouldn’t be there, such as wires, solder blobs, washers and so on. A floating washer in Antares showed that the tumbling didn’t really work as well as it should have, possibly the cause of the docking issue as well. Extraneous debris like this when in the electronics can cause all sorts of havoc and so it is taken very seriously.

My personal speculation is that this is not better or worse than the historical norm.  It's just easier to spot now with high-res cams monitoring separation.  Whatever it is, the piece that floated away would never have been seen by classical telemetry.

[mme]

Was it my imagination or was one of the landing legs a little slow being deployed?

Oops. Missed giving congrats to all involved. 17 launches - amazing!

It's common for the legs to deploy at different rates.  No idea if this one was off nominal, but if you go watch a bunch of landings you'll see there is frequently a leg a bit slower than the rest.

[CyndyC]

Having stuff come out in zero gee is hardly wild conspiracy thinking.   ISS crew wear masks when entering new space, so it's considered a plausible occurence.  The FAA requires circuits to be hardened against it.  It happened on the Blue Origin flight just a few days ago.  It happened on Apollo flights - here from Apollo 14:

The next issue was floating debris in the LM cabin. Both the LM and CM are tumbled after construction(must have been an interesting sight) to loosen any small bits of junk that shouldn’t be there, such as wires, solder blobs, washers and so on. A floating washer in Antares showed that the tumbling didn’t really work as well as it should have, possibly the cause of the docking issue as well. Extraneous debris like this when in the electronics can cause all sorts of havoc and so it is taken very seriously.

My personal speculation is that this is not better or worse than the historical norm.  It's just easier to spot now with high-res cams monitoring separation.  Whatever it is, the piece that floated away would never have been seen by classical telemetry.

At this point I'm thinking the washer might have just been one that was dropped during the movement to attach it, and then couldn't be found again . Who hasn't ever picked up a tool and had something like that happen.

Have never seen a discussion that SpaceX tumbles their vehicles. Being the mavericks they are, maybe they haven't heard of the practice or for some other reason don't do it?

[Jim]

Have never seen a discussion that SpaceX tumbles their vehicles. Being the mavericks they are, maybe they haven't heard of the practice or for some other reason don't do it?

I don't know of any manufacturer that tumbles spacecraft in this day in age.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster?

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

[mheney]

Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster?

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

I was thinking the same thing when I watched the launch ...

[Lars-J]

Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster?

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

As long as there is LOX in the Tank, a thin ice layer will remain on the outside. (Which is what prevents new soot from sticking) I think it might just be that layer that you are seeing here.

[CyndyC]

Its the curved support piece on the TEL, you can see it in the pre-liftoff photo. It evidently blew off during launch. I'm sure it will be on the pad errata list that will be forthcoming.

You speak with a tone of authority and seem certain, but I can't see the part you're talking about on the TEL.

Just to add a different perspective, it looks to me like a piece of newly laid sod close to the pad was dislodged.

[stcks]

Its the curved support piece on the TEL, you can see it in the pre-liftoff photo. It evidently blew off during launch. I'm sure it will be on the pad errata list that will be forthcoming.

You speak with a tone of authority and seem certain, but I can't see the part you're talking about on the TEL.

Just to add a different perspective, it looks to me like a piece of newly laid sod close to the pad was dislodged.

I'm sorry about that. I reworded the post so it doesn't sound like I'm doing anything except guessing.

[AnalogMan]

Having stuff come out in zero gee is hardly wild conspiracy thinking.   ISS crew wear masks when entering new space, so it's considered a plausible occurence.  The FAA requires circuits to be hardened against it.  It happened on the Blue Origin flight just a few days ago.  It happened on Apollo flights - here from Apollo 14:

The next issue was floating debris in the LM cabin. Both the LM and CM are tumbled after construction(must have been an interesting sight) to loosen any small bits of junk that shouldn’t be there, such as wires, solder blobs, washers and so on. A floating washer in Antares showed that the tumbling didn’t really work as well as it should have, possibly the cause of the docking issue as well. Extraneous debris like this when in the electronics can cause all sorts of havoc and so it is taken very seriously.

My personal speculation is that this is not better or worse than the historical norm.  It's just easier to spot now with high-res cams monitoring separation.  Whatever it is, the piece that floated away would never have been seen by classical telemetry.

At this point I'm thinking the washer might have just been one that was dropped during the movement to attach it, and then couldn't be found again . Who hasn't ever picked up a tool and had something like that happen.

Have never seen a discussion that SpaceX tumbles their vehicles. Being the mavericks they are, maybe they haven't heard of the practice or for some other reason don't do it?

The last shuttle that flew had one lost-not-found item (a set-screw for a backshell) in the aft of the orbiter, and four lost-not-found items (3 Hi-Lok fasteners and a lock bolt) in the External Tank intertank space.  Search times for each were logged as 8 hours.

Good news was that a total of 16 items that were initially lost in various parts of the orbiter were eventually found before launch!

Lost-not-found and lost-and-found reports were a regular part of shuttle missions (as I'm sure they are for all current launch companies' missions).

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster?

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

As long as there is LOX in the Tank, a thin ice layer will remain on the outside. (Which is what prevents new soot from sticking) I think it might just be that layer that you are seeing here.

Maybe, although to me it looks rather dirtier on the pad which is when I’d expect there to be more ice?

[meekGee]

Ah yes, the typical post-flight commentary on NSF we all have come to love. You all get a cookie - what would SpaceX do without you guys spotting critical malfunctions!?

No need to get snarky.  Nobody said SpaceX's can't handle it.

Just some guys analyzing footage of a launch.