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#1260
by
Hog
on 22 Jan, 2018 15:02
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Here is a nice pic of FH at LC-39A from late 2017. I just thought I'd share with all you Space Exploration fans.
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#1261
by
the_other_Doug
on 22 Jan, 2018 15:38
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I heard a campaign all in runs about 1.5mil in fees, but I have no source for that, nor any idea if it is more for more attempts, more WDRs etc...
Hang on, if SpaceX is paying fees to the range for their ops, why is the range affected by the shutdown? I thought that if an agency or activity is funded through user fees, it could continue to operate? Is too much of the overall funding of the range not from the commercial operator fees?
User fees only funds an offset and not the greater portion
It would appear from the article Raytheon Team Wins $2 Billion Air Force Range Support Contract, on contracts to run the Eastern and Western ranges, that the total government expenditures to run the ranges is about $200 million per year. Even if there was a launch per week, that would be about $4 million per launch.
So if the user fees are indeed $1.5 million per launch, they are nowhere close to covering the cost of running the range. Of course the range also supports military and other government operations, so commercial launches should not be expected to pay for all of it, but it looks like commercial launches are paying a pretty small share.
I'm doing my annual winter visit to my mother, and I'm taking Amtrak home on Wednesday. When I started getting concerned that government owned-and-operated Amtrak would stop service due to the shutdown, I found that, because "Amtrak operates in part on revenues generated from ticket sales", there would be no impact whatsoever to their operations.
Same kind of situation. The only difference is an Amtrak shutdown would upset a lot more people (read: voters) much more directly than a suspension of launch and test operations at the Cape. As far as I can tell, anyway. So, there is not a single guiding principle, here. Only venal political considerations.
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#1262
by
su27k
on 22 Jan, 2018 15:52
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It would appear from the article Raytheon Team Wins $2 Billion Air Force Range Support Contract, on contracts to run the Eastern and Western ranges, that the total government expenditures to run the ranges is about $200 million per year. Even if there was a launch per week, that would be about $4 million per launch.
So if the user fees are indeed $1.5 million per launch, they are nowhere close to covering the cost of running the range. Of course the range also supports military and other government operations, so commercial launches should not be expected to pay for all of it, but it looks like commercial launches are paying a pretty small share.
$2B is with all options executed, it looks like normal expenditure is only about ~$100M per year:
https://govtribe.com/project/launch-and-test-range-system-ltrs-integrated-support-contract-lisc-for-operations-maintenance-and-sustainment-lisc-oms/activityThe awarded contract begins performance on 10 November 2014 and ends on 30 September 2015, for a contract value of $85,608,662
This would put the weekly launch range cost at $2M, pretty close to $1.5M.
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#1263
by
Herb Schaltegger
on 22 Jan, 2018 15:56
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Another difference (and a very important one) is that Amtrak is a government corporation. The Eastern and Western Ranges are not.
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#1264
by
georgegassaway
on 22 Jan, 2018 15:56
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Here is a nice pic of FH at LC-39A from late 2017. I just thought I'd share with all you Space Exploration fans.
Nice pic of Falcon Heavy. But you are interrupting this thread about the shutdown and Eastern Range personnel, and launch fees.
OH. Excuse me, you’re on topic and the rest…..
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#1265
by
kanno41
on 22 Jan, 2018 16:19
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Looks like the government is going to reopen soon. How soon would we expect them to come back to work and be able to support the static fire? Tomorrow?
Given that SpaceX isn't in any hurry, they probably would have pushed back the static fire anyway without the govt. shutdown.
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#1266
by
ChrisGebhardt
on 22 Jan, 2018 16:48
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Looks like the government is going to reopen soon. How soon would we expect them to come back to work and be able to support the static fire? Tomorrow?
Given that SpaceX isn't in any hurry, they probably would have pushed back the static fire anyway without the govt. shutdown.
The Senate is voting now. The House has to revote today (because the Senate changed things in the bill the House voted on last week). Then the President has to sign it. All of those things have to happen before funding is restored and the government can reopen. It's nearly 13:00 EST. Realistically, the House won't vote until about 15:00 EST at this point.
Realistically, most furloughed employees will not report for work today and will go back tomorrow.
Also, bare in mind that SpaceX needs to static fire the GovSat-1/SES-16 booster this week, too, to ensure a NET 30 Jan. launch of that mission. They will have to balance FH against a paying customer's mission.
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#1267
by
Rocket Science
on 22 Jan, 2018 16:55
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Voting process not over yet... Still, tell them to go find the ignition keys just in case...
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#1268
by
pb2000
on 22 Jan, 2018 17:01
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Lar had an unconfirmed value of 1.5m per launch campaign for commercial launches, so lots(ish) of external money is funding it. The military part of it is much more difficult to quantify and making accurate cost assignments therein is...well *****d if I know.
That isn't lots. And it isn't funding the range, it is funding the direct support that Spacex gets such as range safety analysis or overtime work. It does not pay for keeping the doors open.
The range is a mix of civil servants, military and contractor personnel.
It would appear from the article Raytheon Team Wins $2 Billion Air Force Range Support Contract, on contracts to run the Eastern and Western ranges, that the total government expenditures to run the ranges is about $200 million per year. Even if there was a launch per week, that would be about $4 million per launch.
So if the user fees are indeed $1.5 million per launch, they are nowhere close to covering the cost of running the range. Of course the range also supports military and other government operations, so commercial launches should not be expected to pay for all of it, but it looks like commercial launches are paying a pretty small share.
$2B is with all options executed, it looks like normal expenditure is only about ~$100M per year: https://govtribe.com/project/launch-and-test-range-system-ltrs-integrated-support-contract-lisc-for-operations-maintenance-and-sustainment-lisc-oms/activity
The awarded contract begins performance on 10 November 2014 and ends on 30 September 2015, for a contract value of $85,608,662
This would put the weekly launch range cost at $2M, pretty close to $1.5M.
29 Launches on the range in 2017 * ~1.5m = ~43.5m. Is the money paid to the federal government to offset the 85m contract they awarded or is it paid to the contractor running the range?
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#1269
by
Lar
on 22 Jan, 2018 17:56
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We have a thread for the shutdown impact. All this discussion of how much a launch costs probably[1] belongs there. Also I don't have a source for where I got 1.5M I just remember reading it but I would totally take that number with a very large grain of salt.
1 - very probably[2].
2 - No, certainly.
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#1270
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 22 Jan, 2018 20:37
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Here's a Lunar program proposal based on FH:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3414/1
Here's a better one:
http://www.nss.org/docs/EvolvableLunarArchitecture.pdfadd:
Keep in mind that FH has a key value to NSS for the program to advance. Few could launch the largest payloads.
Not really
How long has a DIVH sit on the pad, 9 months?
So, you like to live with no contingencies, no backup? Doesn't sound like the AF I've known.
Not the best of arguments. USAF has been without a backup for Delta IVH since 2005. Why would they be in a rush to have one now?
From SpaceX. Falcon Heavy launch can't happen during a government shutdown.
https://twitter.com/jackiewattles/status/955332368692326400
... which is critical for NSS missions
Well they seem to think so. But, what does that matter, right?
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#1271
by
AncientU
on 22 Jan, 2018 21:04
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#1272
by
clongton
on 22 Jan, 2018 22:26
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Congress has just voted to reopen the government. The President has said he will sign it. This clears the way for the range personnel to return to work tomorrow. This should clear the way for SpaceX to resume preparations for the Falcon Heavy Static Fire.
Source: I watched the House re-vote on the Senate change live. All major news networks have reported the President saying he will sign the bill if it passes - which it just did.
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#1273
by
TheFallen
on 23 Jan, 2018 01:42
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#1274
by
Jim Aldridge
on 23 Jan, 2018 10:55
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Glad to see that the federal government is back open and operational!
I read Chris B. post in Falcon Heavy status that SpaceX is still dealing with issues with the GSE, and that the static fire could push out a bit further. I also see on the schedule that SES 16 is scheduled for Jan 30, which means a static fire for that booster prior to the launch. Does anyone have any idea what the latest date is that the FH static fire could happen and not impact the SES 16 SF and launch?
I understand that the SES 16 is a scheduled launch and the FH is a demo launch, so would assume that the SES 16 might take precedence....just like in the case of the recent ULA launch.
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#1275
by
Jim
on 23 Jan, 2018 13:01
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I understand that the SES 16 is a scheduled launch and the FH is a demo launch, so would assume that the SES 16 might take precedence....just like in the case of the recent ULA launch.
That is a Spacex call and not a range call
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#1276
by
the_other_Doug
on 23 Jan, 2018 13:13
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I'd say it's not surprising that FH is going through a fairly long series of WDR cycles, getting the GSE tuned up. The first Saturn V, AS-501, had a Wet CDDT (it's version of a WDR), scheduled to last four days, run out to 17 days. But all remaining Saturn V Wet CDDT's ran pretty well on schedule.
SpaceX is just coming to terms with Falcon Heavy, and just as it took a while for NASA to do so with the mighty Saturn, it will take as long as it takes to do so with FH.
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#1277
by
Jim
on 23 Jan, 2018 13:16
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I'd say it's not surprising that FH is going through a fairly long series of WDR cycles, getting the GSE tuned up. The first Saturn V, AS-501, had a Wet CDDT (it's version of a WDR), scheduled to last four days, run out to 17 days. But all remaining Saturn V Wet CDDT's ran pretty well on schedule.
SpaceX is just coming to terms with Falcon Heavy, and just as it took a while for NASA to do so with the mighty Saturn, it will take as long as it takes to do so with FH.
How about comparing it to a more relevant vehicle like the Delta IV heavy. Saturn V does not compare at all.
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#1278
by
Kansan52
on 23 Jan, 2018 14:07
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Does someone have a comparison between Delta IV Heavy and FH first launch preparations? My search skills couldn'the locate anything yet.
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#1279
by
TheFallen
on 23 Jan, 2018 15:25
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I would find it
extremely hilarious if Falcon Heavy
still doesn't fire her engines by the next potential shutdown after February 8
