Author Topic: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion  (Read 323822 times)

Offline Tomness

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #700 on: 05/09/2018 09:32 pm »
Just to confirm, both stages are indeed block 5.

So this Full Block V/V7? like this is end of the line? balls to wall F9 beast we have been waiting for? :D

Offline IanThePineapple

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #701 on: 05/09/2018 09:38 pm »
Just to confirm, both stages are indeed block 5.

So this Full Block V/V7? like this is end of the line? balls to wall F9 beast we have been waiting for? :D

You got it. The beginning of the end of the F9 program...

Woah...  :o

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #702 on: 05/09/2018 10:09 pm »
I prefer, quoting Eric Berger 'The end of the beginning' for the Falcon program.
Failure is not only an option, it's the only way to learn.
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Offline IanThePineapple

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #703 on: 05/09/2018 10:14 pm »
I prefer, quoting Eric Berger 'The end of the beginning' for the Falcon program.

Yeah, both terms work. We're really in an odd, grey area of the F9 program.

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #704 on: 05/09/2018 10:15 pm »
Worth noting it is the same loading they were doing pre-Amos 6. This time with redesigned COPV's it will not be so risky.

I don't know that the RP-1 load has even been considered risky, the temperature differentials are far more benign than the LOX load.

Given that the mass of a Dragon 2 with crew and payload is far less than the capability of an F9 Block 5 to LEO, could SpaceX forego the use of super-chilled propellant for such missions? Would that result in lower perceived or actual risks to the crew and mission?

Offline IanThePineapple

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #705 on: 05/09/2018 10:30 pm »
Worth noting it is the same loading they were doing pre-Amos 6. This time with redesigned COPV's it will not be so risky.

I don't know that the RP-1 load has even been considered risky, the temperature differentials are far more benign than the LOX load.

Given that the mass of a Dragon 2 with crew and payload is far less than the capability of an F9 Block 5 to LEO, could SpaceX forego the use of super-chilled propellant for such missions? Would that result in lower perceived or actual risks to the crew and mission?

The Full Thrust Merlin 1D was designed specifically to work with chilled propellants, along with all other pad and rocket systems. So it's pretty much a solid "no"

Offline Lars-J

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #706 on: 05/09/2018 10:32 pm »
Worth noting it is the same loading they were doing pre-Amos 6. This time with redesigned COPV's it will not be so risky.

I don't know that the RP-1 load has even been considered risky, the temperature differentials are far more benign than the LOX load.

Given that the mass of a Dragon 2 with crew and payload is far less than the capability of an F9 Block 5 to LEO, could SpaceX forego the use of super-chilled propellant for such missions? Would that result in lower perceived or actual risks to the crew and mission?

The Full Thrust Merlin 1D was designed specifically to work with chilled propellants, along with all other pad and rocket systems. So it's pretty much a solid "no"

Not using densified propellant would negatively affect performance.

But please - we need to stop this idea that M1D's now only work with densified propellant. Whatever propellant remains as the landing burns starts is surely NOT super chilled or densified anymore. Just regular LOX and RP-1.

Online DigitalMan

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #707 on: 05/09/2018 10:37 pm »
The question I have is what configuration/propellant loading solution are they going to use for the DM-1 launch?  I would expect that will be exactly what they would intend to do for DM-2, no?

A complication is that if the procedure differs from a normal launch what does that do in terms of certification flights?

Online Herb Schaltegger

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #708 on: 05/09/2018 11:12 pm »
I prefer, quoting Eric Berger 'The end of the beginning' for the Falcon program.

Yeah, both terms work. We're really in an odd, grey area of the F9 program.

Oh, I don't know. It's basically where every other "mature", operational launch system is by their 3rd or 4th mission. It's only odd or gray in "SpaceX Land." They've tweaked and flat-out changed so much stuff that "Falcon 9" as a term is basically meaningless. Go back and watch footage of the first couple F9 launches and compare to the present.

I mean, if you add in an expectation that all F9 operations will cease and the entire SpaceX manifest will transition to BFR/BFS in a few years, then maybe it feels odd. However, my personal belief is that if such a transition occurs at all (*), it won't be for another 5 years or so, maybe longer. That's time for a LOT of Block 5 flights.

(*) Look, I adore Elon's optimism and vision as much as anyone, but I think the jump to BFR scale is going to more of a tedious technological slog and will take 3 times longer than he hopes it will. I hope to be proven wrong and will happily enjoy my plate of crow. I would like some barbecue sauce if necessary, however.
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Online gongora

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #709 on: 05/09/2018 11:28 pm »
The question I have is what configuration/propellant loading solution are they going to use for the DM-1 launch?  I would expect that will be exactly what they would intend to do for DM-2, no?

A complication is that if the procedure differs from a normal launch what does that do in terms of certification flights?

This is already being discussed in the Commercial Crew Discussion thread,we don't need to start a parallel conversation here:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35717.0
« Last Edit: 05/09/2018 11:28 pm by gongora »

Online lonestriker

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #710 on: 05/10/2018 01:43 am »
From the press kit:

Mission Timeline (all times approximate)
COUNTDOWN
Hour/Min/Sec Events
- 00:38:00 SpaceX Launch Director verifies go for propellant load
- 00:35:00 RP-1 (rocket grade kerosene) loading underway
- 00:35:00 1st stage LOX (liquid oxygen) loading underway
- 00:16:00 2nd stage LOX loading underway


Compared to Block 4:

COUNTDOWN
Hour/Min/Sec Events
- 01:13:00 SpaceX Launch Director verifies go for propellant load
- 01:10:00 RP-1 (rocket grade kerosene) loading underway
- 00:35:00 LOX (liquid oxygen) loading underway


Falcon 9 will be loaded up with RP-1 and LOX a lot faster than usual. Are they trying to keep the propellants as cold as possible before launch?

Pure conjecture on my part:  that's the likely explanation for later-loading RP-1 (as mentioned LOX loading time is unchanged.)  I assume that the later RP-1 loading will also help keep the LOX colder and result in less boil off post launch; they share a common bulkhead so the much warmer RP-1 would be a big cryo sink and warm the LOX more if it sits in the tanks longer.

Online Johnnyhinbos

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #711 on: 05/10/2018 02:09 am »
Worth noting it is the same loading they were doing pre-Amos 6. This time with redesigned COPV's it will not be so risky.
Youíre making a leap of faith. Iíd say we _hope_ itís not so risky...
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Offline cppetrie

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #712 on: 05/10/2018 02:27 am »
Iím not convinced theyíve shortened either fuel load times. If they have been using 35 minutes to load RP-1 starting at t-70 minutes and 35 minutes to load LOX starting at t-35 minutes, then this new timeline doesnít represent faster fuel/oxidizer loading but rather simultaneous fuel and oxidizer loading of 35 minutes starting at t-35 minutes.

Also, I am virtually certain they went back to the fast LOX load that was used for Amos-6 beginning with the introduction of block 4 upper stages last year. The LOX load time hasnít changed from Block 4, just the RP-1 loading start time.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #713 on: 05/10/2018 03:28 am »

(*) Look, I adore Elon's optimism and vision as much as anyone, but I think the jump to BFR scale is going to more of a tedious technological slog and will take 3 times longer than he hopes it will. I hope to be proven wrong and will happily enjoy my plate of crow. I would like some barbecue sauce if necessary, however.

I agree and hope you're proven right, if only because F9 is such a cost-effective technical marvel, it deserves to enjoy at least a decade or more in the limelight. Seeing it superceded in a few years would be like seeing a sports superstar retire in his/her prime.

But I don't think you'll be eating any crow, with or without sauce.

Offline deruch

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #714 on: 05/10/2018 04:39 am »
Iím not convinced theyíve shortened either fuel load times. If they have been using 35 minutes to load RP-1 starting at t-70 minutes and 35 minutes to load LOX starting at t-35 minutes, then this new timeline doesnít represent faster fuel/oxidizer loading but rather simultaneous fuel and oxidizer loading of 35 minutes starting at t-35 minutes.

There are call outs on the previous webcasts for when they finish loading RP-1 that go almost all the way up to launch.  It very clearly wasn't all loaded in the first 35 minutes.  Not even into just topping off at that point.
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Offline techdude06

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #715 on: 05/10/2018 11:16 am »
Are there COPVs in the RP1 tank?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #716 on: 05/10/2018 11:19 am »
Worth noting it is the same loading they were doing pre-Amos 6. This time with redesigned COPV's it will not be so risky.
Youíre making a leap of faith. Iíd say we _hope_ itís not so risky...

No, SpaceX and NASA tested this thoroughly and calculated it's not so risky. A bit more than faith...
Failure is not only an option, it's the only way to learn.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the custody of fire" - Gustav Mahler

Offline meekGee

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #717 on: 05/10/2018 02:05 pm »



(*) Look, I adore Elon's optimism and vision as much as anyone, but I think the jump to BFR scale is going to more of a tedious technological slog and will take 3 times longer than he hopes it will. I hope to be proven wrong and will happily enjoy my plate of crow. I would like some barbecue sauce if necessary, however.

I agree and hope you're proven right, if only because F9 is such a cost-effective technical marvel, it deserves to enjoy at least a decade or more in the limelight. Seeing it superceded in a few years would be like seeing a sports superstar retire in his/her prime.



Sure, but by the time it retires it will have flown more than any other rocket, right?

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Offline mme

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #718 on: 05/10/2018 02:12 pm »



(*) Look, I adore Elon's optimism and vision as much as anyone, but I think the jump to BFR scale is going to more of a tedious technological slog and will take 3 times longer than he hopes it will. I hope to be proven wrong and will happily enjoy my plate of crow. I would like some barbecue sauce if necessary, however.

I agree and hope you're proven right, if only because F9 is such a cost-effective technical marvel, it deserves to enjoy at least a decade or more in the limelight. Seeing it superceded in a few years would be like seeing a sports superstar retire in his/her prime.



Sure, but by the time it retires it will have flown more than any other rocket, right?

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ABCD: Always Be Counting Down
Depends on if you consider all the R-7 derivatives as the same rocket.  It'll take a while to pass the Soyuz-U if you want to stick to a specific, um, block.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Semmel

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #719 on: 05/10/2018 02:13 pm »



(*) Look, I adore Elon's optimism and vision as much as anyone, but I think the jump to BFR scale is going to more of a tedious technological slog and will take 3 times longer than he hopes it will. I hope to be proven wrong and will happily enjoy my plate of crow. I would like some barbecue sauce if necessary, however.

I agree and hope you're proven right, if only because F9 is such a cost-effective technical marvel, it deserves to enjoy at least a decade or more in the limelight. Seeing it superceded in a few years would be like seeing a sports superstar retire in his/her prime.



Sure, but by the time it retires it will have flown more than any other rocket, right?


Soyuz R7 more than 1800 launches are hard to overtake. I doubt that F9 will fly that often.

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