Falcon 9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion

[envy887]

Oh, the new COPVs haven’t flown yet:

The faster load (back to pre-Amos-6) suggested to me that the new COPVs where in use for the first block 5.

T-35 minute (stage 1)  LOX load has been standard since Block 4. Block 5 has a faster RP-1 load, but that doesn't affect the COPVs.

Was the Block 4 upper stage LOX load simultaneous with stage 1, or did it start at T-16 minutes like Block 5?

[envy887]

Loren Grush is now reporting that COPV 2.0 did not fly.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/17388680/spacex-falcon-9-rocket-block-5-commercial-crew-nasa-copv

This doesn't add up to me. The upper stage always loaded LOX at T-35 minutes, even before AMOS-6. Why would SpaceX move that up to T-16 minutes without new COPVs?

[Lars-J]

Loren Grush is now reporting that COPV 2.0 did not fly.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/24/17388680/spacex-falcon-9-rocket-block-5-commercial-crew-nasa-copv

This doesn't add up to me. The upper stage always loaded LOX at T-35 minutes, even before AMOS-6. Why would SpaceX move that up to T-16 minutes without new COPVs?

I suspect this is all based on poor information. Someone posted a tweet that was a misunderstanding, and several outlets ran with the story without verifying it.

[guckyfan]

I suspect this is all based on poor information. Someone posted a tweet that was a misunderstanding, and several outlets ran with the story without verifying it.

I had the same impression. But the Verge article states that this flight does not count as one of the 7 qualification flights and that both NASA and SpaceX confirmed that. Also I found it somewhat surprising that Elon Musk, when asked, said he does not know if this flight will count. I would like some confirmation beyond the Verge article.

[mgeagon]

Specifically, the Verge article states that COPV 2.0 will not fly until DM-1. It is conceivable that what did fly was a version that had not been certified by NASA yet. The ASAP said last week that there were still challenges remaining for COPV 2.0. Perhaps what flew was indeed v2.0, but the one scheduled to fly on DM-1 NET August is v2.1?

[theinternetftw]

I suspect this is all based on poor information. Someone posted a tweet that was a misunderstanding, and several outlets ran with the story without verifying it.

It seems this story resulted from a SpaceX source speaking on background. Tim Fernholz seems quite convinced.  More importantly, evidence of corroborative sourcing (the results of requests for comment) from NASA and SpaceX can be seen both in his article as well as the one by Loren Grush.  Evidence of further correspondence with SpaceX over this can also be seen in both of their twitter feeds. [1] [2] [3] (edit: added [3])

This suggests due diligence.

[envy887]

Specifically, the Verge article states that COPV 2.0 will not fly until DM-1. It is conceivable that what did fly was a version that had not been certified by NASA yet. The ASAP said last week that there were still challenges remaining for COPV 2.0. Perhaps what flew was indeed v2.0, but the one scheduled to fly on DM-1 NET August is v2.1?

This seems possible. AFAIK SpaceX never did a 16-minutes upper stage LOX load before, so there were almost certainly some upgrades to the COPVs that flew on B1046.

Although interestingly, upper stage LOX load started at T-35 minutes in the Block 5 upper stage for Iridium 6/GRACE-FO.

[Alexphysics]

I hate to say this but, has anyone checked out if they actually loaded the LOX on the second stage at T-35min? I think that's not the case because I did it, and it turns out that they were loading the LOX on the upper stage at T-20min on Block 4, they moved that 4 minutes to T-16min. You can easily know that thanks to Chris G. posts on the missions thread where he usually posts what are the steps they are following in the countdown. I don't usually comment here on this forum but this time I thought I had to do it. I have another post on reddit discussing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/8lsjqn/spacexs_final_upgrade_to_its_falcon_9_rocket_isnt/dziv90m/

If I'm wrong I want to know it, so feel free to correct me!

[envy887]

I hate to say this but, has anyone checked out if they actually loaded the LOX on the second stage at T-35min? I think that's not the case because I did it, and it turns out that they were loading the LOX on the upper stage at T-20min on Block 4, they moved that 4 minutes to T-16min. You can easily know that thanks to Chris G. posts on the missions thread where he usually posts what are the steps they are following in the countdown. I don't usually comment here on this forum but this time I thought I had to do it. I have another post on reddit discussing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/8lsjqn/spacexs_final_upgrade_to_its_falcon_9_rocket_isnt/dziv90m/

If I'm wrong I want to know it, so feel free to correct me!

TESS: No mention of upper stage starting at T-20 or T-16, it appears both stages started LOX load at T-35

T-35mins.  LOX load has started.

Iridium 6/GRACE-FO: both stages (Block 4 booster, Block 5 upper) were confirmed to be loading LOX at T-35:

T-35mins

Launch team confirms that Stage 1 and 2 LOX loads have started AND Stage 2 RP-1 load has started.

Bangabandhu-1: Block 5 upper and booster stages. LOX load starts in booster at T-35, in upper stage at T-16

T-35mins and COUNTING.  Fueling is underway.

T-16mins  Launch loop confirms LOX load to Stage 2 has started.

[Alexphysics]

I know that Chris didn't post that for every mission, it's understandable, but the different LOX loading times for the first and the second stages were a reality in Block 4 so this is not a huge change.

[Star One]

This article clears the matter up as they asked Space X & NASA.

NASA and SpaceX confirmed Thursday that the modified COPVs were not on the May 11 launch, but will instead be flown for the first time on a test mission of the company’s Crew Dragon capsule called Demo-1, currently set for liftoff at the end of August without any astronauts on-board.

Only then with the counter start logging the seven flights of the Falcon 9 in a “frozen” configuration required before a second Crew Dragon demo flight, currently scheduled for December, at the earliest, with two astronauts who will fly to the space station.

“In aerospace, ‘testing like we fly’ is a long standing tenant for safe operations and understanding of critical systems,” said Cheryl Warner, a NASA spokesperson, in response to an inquiry from Spaceflight Now. “We anticipate this configuration will be ready for Demonstration Mission 1.

https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/05/25/new-helium-tank-for-spacex-crew-launches-still-waiting-to-fly/

[edkyle99]

So that wasn't the final Block 5 solution that everyone has been talking about for so long.  What was it then?  Block 4.9.9?

 - Ed Kyle

[M.E.T.]

So that wasn't the final Block 5 solution that everyone has been talking about for so long.  What was it then?  Block 4.9.9?

 - Ed Kyle

The main focus of the Block V upgrade - going back to when we first heard about it - was its rapid reusability compared to the Block IV. That's what distinguishes it from the previous incarnations. The new COPV seems just an optional add on, for purposes of satisfying NASA. It is not a requirement for Block V rapid reusability. At least from my reading.

[envy887]

I know that Chris didn't post that for every mission, it's understandable, but the different LOX loading times for the first and the second stages were a reality in Block 4 so this is not a huge change.

Can you point to a mission update thread or press kit where a 16-minute upper stage LOX load is explicitly called out? I can't find one. Before AMOS-6 it was 25 minutes, not 16.

http://spaceflight101.com/falcon-9-ft-countdown-timeline/

[deruch]

So that wasn't the final Block 5 solution that everyone has been talking about for so long.  What was it then?  Block 4.9.9?

 - Ed Kyle

Block 5.0.-1

There have been previous comments surrounding Block 5 that made slight distinctions between talking about "Block 5" and the "configuration needed to fly humans".  IIRC, the main things talked about for the latter were the new turbopump for the M1Ds to eliminate the microcracking and the COPV 2.0.  We've just assumed that they were all part of the single upgrade that included all the rest.  And if the new COPVs had been fully ready at the same time everything else was, I'm sure they'd have been on the Bangabandhu launch too.  So long as they aren't further changing the loading procedures once the COPVs are ready, they seem like a drop in replacement for the current hardware.

[meekGee]

So that wasn't the final Block 5 solution that everyone has been talking about for so long.  What was it then?  Block 4.9.9?

 - Ed Kyle

Nobidy said B5 won't have more mods to it.

So this is B5, and there will be 5.x. Why the consternation?

-----
ABCD: Always Be Counting Down

[Alexphysics]

I don't know how to quote people, I'm 21 but I feel like being 80 with these things. Anyway, my answer is to envy887:

I wasn't saying that in earlier missions they loaded the LOX on the upper stage at T-16min, I was saying that different times for LOX load on the first and the second stages was nothing new and that in past missions the LOX load was at T-20min as we can see from earlier Block 4 missions (I gave three examples on my reddit post, but I'm sure you could find more). What most people think is that it's something new because it appeared on the press kit. They only moved that by 4 minutes, which may indicate that something new was on that second stage (but, I mean, there were a ton of things new on that second stage) but if NASA and SpaceX say there were no redesigned COPV's then there should be another thing that allowed them to do it 4 minutes closer to liftoff.

[envy887]

I don't know how to quote people, I'm 21 but I feel like being 80 with these things. Anyway, my answer is to envy887:

I wasn't saying that in earlier missions they loaded the LOX on the upper stage at T-16min, I was saying that different times for LOX load on the first and the second stages was nothing new and that in past missions the LOX load was at T-20min as we can see from earlier Block 4 missions (I gave three examples on my reddit post, but I'm sure you could find more). What most people think is that it's something new because it appeared on the press kit. They only moved that by 4 minutes, which may indicate that something new was on that second stage (but, I mean, there were a ton of things new on that second stage) but if NASA and SpaceX say there were no redesigned COPV's then there should be another thing that allowed them to do it 4 minutes closer to liftoff.

What might that "another thing" be?

If you're on a mobile browser the quote feature is in the menu drop-down on the upper right of each post.

[Star One]

So that wasn't the final Block 5 solution that everyone has been talking about for so long.  What was it then?  Block 4.9.9?

 - Ed Kyle

The main focus of the Block V upgrade - going back to when we first heard about it - was its rapid reusability compared to the Block IV. That's what distinguishes it from the previous incarnations. The new COPV seems just an optional add on, for purposes of satisfying NASA. It is not a requirement for Block V rapid reusability. At least from my reading.

I think the astronauts actually going to ride the F9 would disagree with your conclusion of it just being an ‘optional add on’. Also Block 5 is not just there for rapid reusability but to get humans back into space from US soil.

[M.E.T.]

So that wasn't the final Block 5 solution that everyone has been talking about for so long.  What was it then?  Block 4.9.9?

 - Ed Kyle

The main focus of the Block V upgrade - going back to when we first heard about it - was its rapid reusability compared to the Block IV. That's what distinguishes it from the previous incarnations. The new COPV seems just an optional add on, for purposes of satisfying NASA. It is not a requirement for Block V rapid reusability. At least from my reading.

I think the astronauts actually going to ride the F9 would disagree with your conclusion of it just being an ‘optional add on’. Also Block 5 is not just there for rapid reusability but to get humans back into space from US soil.

It’s the add on required for the tiny percentage of the Block V’s 300 remaining flights that will be carrying humans. Even at 5 astronaut carrying flights per year, (a blind guess on my part) that gives you perhaps 25 Crew Dragon flights over the next 5 years. Less than 10% of total Block V flights, in other words.

For the other 90% of fligts the upgraded COPV is not required.