Author Topic: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion  (Read 313450 times)

Offline Rabidpanda

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #360 on: 11/29/2017 05:53 AM »
It seems more likely that Elon just misspoke. Forging that shape seems extremely unrealistic, unless he is just talking about machining it from a forged billet (which would certainly be possible but would result in a lot of wasted material). Is there any evidence other than that second hand quote that they are forged and not cast?

Offline john smith 19

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #361 on: 11/30/2017 08:23 PM »
The other option is that SX expected to need a forged fin but had a cast/cut one set made up in order to get flight data.

However if the cast/cut set design performed well enough they might have decided "actually a cast/cut design is good enough. The weights OK and quality looks good, and they got them to our door fast"

Historically Forging has been the way to make highly stressed high quality parts but modern casting quality has got a great deal better. The key parameter is the "casting factor," the allowance you have to make in weight for a cast part to have the same strength and rigidity properties of a machined or forged part.

The gear box casing on the Black Arrow LV had a CF of 1.7 IOW it was 1.7x heavier (Aluminum)than a machined or forged version (but a very great deal cheaper).

By the 00's Airbus were accepting (smallish) Titanium cast parts with CF's of 1.0-1.1.

It's been a decades long process but precision casting methods can do high precision casting in highly reactive metals (and molten Titanium is highly reactive) using die casting or lost wax/plastic methods, usually using vacuum melting and vacuum casting to eliminate dissolved gases and ceramic bag dross filters to eliminate inclusions.

Which is good because Ti is a PITA to machine.  :(

So it could just be the SX mfg team were being cautious and the rapid prototyping process has become the new baseline.



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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #362 on: 11/30/2017 08:53 PM »
It seems more likely that Elon just misspoke. Forging that shape seems extremely unrealistic, unless he is just talking about machining it from a forged billet (which would certainly be possible but would result in a lot of wasted material).

Musk knows about metal working, so I think it's unlikely he misspoke.

And it's a rare stamped or forged part that doesn't need some clean up, and Musk never said no secondary machining wouldn't be required.

Also, keep in mind that a forging doesn't have to be done in one press. It can be done with a number of successive (i.e. progressive) dies, with the final one being close to the net part.

For example, a grid fin looks similar to a waffle, so there could be a number of successive dies that take a flat plate of titanium and progressively thin out the areas that are the holes, and shape the rest of the material into the grids. Then the "flash", or leftover material is machined out.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online vaporcobra

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #363 on: 12/11/2017 07:58 PM »
Crossposting from the Manifest thread.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.  Although [10 reflights without refurb] is the design goal; they may not hit it with the first iteration [of Block 5].

That's almost besides the point. Even if Block 5 falls 50-70% short of the goal of 10 reflights without refurb, it would be absolutely paradigm-shifting. Remember, 10 flights sans refurb doesn't mention the more important goal, 100 flights with regular refurbishment. If a single booster is capable of flying even 10 times only with serious refurbishment after each recovery, it magnifies SpaceX's fleet by a factor of 10.

With 10 reflights per life and 6 weeks to refurb after each flight (worst-case realistic scenario), four boosters could conduct biweekly launches for 20 months. Three boosters could theoretically maintain a biweekly cadence for 15 months in the same conditions, but there is literally zero margin there for refurb delays.

At a more realistic present-day pace of manufacturing (10-20 Block 5 F9s per year) and with assumptions that Block 5 will manage at least 50% of its reuse goals (5 flights without refurb and 50 flights per booster), it is actually hard to fathom how significant a change it would be. The expendability paradigm is blinding, to say the least. The next focus, of course, will be cost and thus total reusability; BFR.

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #364 on: 12/17/2017 11:09 PM »
Quote from: @elonmusk
For now, we only use those on super hot reentry missions. Will go to all Ti with Falcon 9 V5, which is a few months away.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/942526513731260417

Edit: added attribution
« Last Edit: 12/17/2017 11:11 PM by pstephens »

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #365 on: 12/17/2017 11:13 PM »
Quote from: @elonmusk
For now, we only use those on super hot reentry missions. Will go to all Ti with Falcon 9 V5, which is a few months away.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/942526513731260417


And, is V5 just a typo? Or do we have yet another Falcon versioning scheme?  ::)

Offline old_sellsword

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #366 on: 12/17/2017 11:34 PM »
Quote from: @elonmusk
For now, we only use those on super hot reentry missions. Will go to all Ti with Falcon 9 V5, which is a few months away.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/942526513731260417


And, is V5 just a typo? Or do we have yet another Falcon versioning scheme?  ::)

Itís not a typo, heís just not rigorous when it comes to naming things consistently.

Offline woods170

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #367 on: 12/18/2017 07:10 AM »
Quote from: @elonmusk
For now, we only use those on super hot reentry missions. Will go to all Ti with Falcon 9 V5, which is a few months away.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/942526513731260417


And, is V5 just a typo? Or do we have yet another Falcon versioning scheme?  ::)

Itís not a typo, heís just not rigorous when it comes to naming things consistently.
Could be a typo given that "v" and "b" are right next to each other on the average keyboard. But I agree that V(ersion) 5 does not differ from B(lock) 5 all that much. They both indicate the fifth major iteration of the Falcon 9 design.

Offline vanoord

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #368 on: 12/18/2017 08:28 AM »
Itís not a typo, heís just not rigorous when it comes to naming things consistently.

Yup.

Falcon 9
Falcon 9 v1.1
Falcon 9 Full Thrust (or Falcon 9 v1.2 according to the paperwork)
...um, did "Block 4" ever get a name from Elon?
Falcon 9 Block 5, er Falcon 9 Version 5

Anyway, Block / Version 5 is going to be the final incarnation of F9 so we won't have to worry about the naming strategy shortly... Well, until Elon changes his mind and we're onto F9 v6, Block 6, F9 v2.0 or whatever.

Offline woods170

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #369 on: 12/18/2017 08:59 AM »
Itís not a typo, heís just not rigorous when it comes to naming things consistently.

Yup.

Falcon 9
Falcon 9 v1.1
Falcon 9 Full Thrust (or Falcon 9 v1.2 according to the paperwork)
...um, did "Block 4" ever get a name from Elon?
Falcon 9 Block 5, er Falcon 9 Version 5

Anyway, Block / Version 5 is going to be the final incarnation of F9 so we won't have to worry about the naming strategy shortly... Well, until Elon changes his mind and we're onto F9 v6, Block 6, F9 v2.0 or whatever.

Block 4 was assigned an unofficial name right here at NSF: "Fuller Thrust".

(Note: link goes to L2).
« Last Edit: 12/18/2017 09:04 AM by woods170 »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #370 on: 12/18/2017 09:17 AM »
Yup.

Falcon 9
Falcon 9 v1.1
Falcon 9 Full Thrust (or Falcon 9 v1.2 according to the paperwork)
...um, did "Block 4" ever get a name from Elon?
Falcon 9 Block 5, er Falcon 9 Version 5

Anyway, Block / Version 5 is going to be the final incarnation of F9 so we won't have to worry about the naming strategy shortly... Well, until Elon changes his mind and we're onto F9 v6, Block 6, F9 v2.0 or whatever.
AFAIK the plan is F9 V 5 --> BFS  for everything.

However there might need to be some "transitional arrangement" if BFS IOC is delayed.

Now what are the chances of that happening?
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline JamesH65

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #371 on: 12/18/2017 09:26 AM »
Yup.

Falcon 9
Falcon 9 v1.1
Falcon 9 Full Thrust (or Falcon 9 v1.2 according to the paperwork)
...um, did "Block 4" ever get a name from Elon?
Falcon 9 Block 5, er Falcon 9 Version 5

Anyway, Block / Version 5 is going to be the final incarnation of F9 so we won't have to worry about the naming strategy shortly... Well, until Elon changes his mind and we're onto F9 v6, Block 6, F9 v2.0 or whatever.
AFAIK the plan is F9 V 5 --> BFS  for everything.

However there might need to be some "transitional arrangement" if BFS IOC is delayed.

Now what are the chances of that happening?

I'm sure there will be improvements in almost every area as the blocks 5's start flying. Whether they will be enough to claim block 6? Who knows, depends how many they want!

Offline old_sellsword

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #372 on: 12/18/2017 11:13 AM »
Itís not a typo, heís just not rigorous when it comes to naming things consistently.

Yup.

Falcon 9
Falcon 9 v1.1
Falcon 9 Full Thrust (or Falcon 9 v1.2 according to the paperwork)
...um, did "Block 4" ever get a name from Elon?
Falcon 9 Block 5, er Falcon 9 Version 5

Anyway, Block / Version 5 is going to be the final incarnation of F9 so we won't have to worry about the naming strategy shortly... Well, until Elon changes his mind and we're onto F9 v6, Block 6, F9 v2.0 or whatever.

Block 4 was assigned an unofficial name right here at NSF: "Fuller Thrust".

(Note: link goes to L2).

Block 4 is not unofficial, nor was it assigned by NSF or any other fan group. Falcon 9 v1.2 has flown four (soon to be five) design revisions called Blocks, and employees have referred to them as such for a while internally.

Offline vanoord

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #373 on: 12/18/2017 12:24 PM »
I may be missing something, but are you sure that there are 5 'blocks' of F9 v1.2? That gives a total of 7 F9 variants:

F9 1.0 (3x3 engines)
F9 1.1 (Octaweb, started with B-1001)
F9 1.2 Block 1 (also known as F9 Full Thrust / stretched, started with B-1019)
F9 1.2 Block 2
F9 1.2 Block 3
F9 1.2 Block 4
F9 1.2 Block 5 (forthcoming, starting B-1045 or B-1046)

My understanding was that the most recent 4 flown new cores were 'Block 4', which was the fourth in a sequence that ran F9 1.0 / F9 1.1 / F9 1.2 / F9 Block 4 - and will continue with F9 Block 5?

Offline old_sellsword

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #374 on: 12/18/2017 12:50 PM »
I may be missing something, but are you sure that there are 5 'blocks' of F9 v1.2?

Yes.

That gives a total of 7 F9 variants:

...

I mean sure, but if you want to go deeper, you can say there have been 40-something F9 variants, none are identical.

My understanding was that the most recent 4 flown new cores were 'Block 4', which was the fourth in a sequence that ran F9 1.0 / F9 1.1 / F9 1.2 / F9 Block 4 - and will continue with F9 Block 5?

Everything since 1019 has been F9 v1.2 Block 1, 2, or 3; everything since 1039 has been F9 v1.2 Block 4. Honestly it doesn't even matter that much because without people obsessively tracking this stuff, it's unlikely anyone would've noticed the differences between any of the F9 v1.2 Blocks.

The only one that really matters is Block 5, and we'll definitely be able to tell when it shows up in McGregor.

Offline stcks

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #375 on: 12/18/2017 01:03 PM »
Honestly it doesn't even matter that much because without people obsessively tracking this stuff, it's unlikely anyone would've noticed the differences between any of the F9 v1.2 Blocks.

Pretty much -- with the minor exception of the Block 4 second stage which had a few noticeable visual differences around the raceway(s) if I am remembering it correctly.

Offline vanoord

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #376 on: 12/18/2017 01:49 PM »
The only one that really matters is Block 5, and we'll definitely be able to tell when it shows up in McGregor.

Indeed...

Although from a point of understanding the change, it's easier to think of 'Block 5' as being F9 v1.3.


Pretty much -- with the minor exception of the Block 4 second stage which had a few noticeable visual differences around the raceway(s) if I am remembering it correctly.

It's way off topic, but didn't that version of the upper stage debut on the final 'new' flight of the version prior to Block 4 (Formosat)?


I know, I should get out more...
« Last Edit: 12/18/2017 01:52 PM by vanoord »

Offline stcks

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #377 on: 12/18/2017 02:04 PM »
Pretty much -- with the minor exception of the Block 4 second stage which had a few noticeable visual differences around the raceway(s) if I am remembering it correctly.

It's way off topic, but didn't that version of the upper stage debut on the final 'new' flight of the version prior to Block 4 (Formosat)?


I know, I should get out more...

We believe it was actually Intelsat-35e which flew a Block 3 (B1037) in expendable mode and sported the first Block 4 upper stage. I don't remember what formosat's upper stage looked like.

Online Elthiryel

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #378 on: 12/18/2017 09:06 PM »
Recently, I've created an online spreadsheet matching flights of F9 v1.2 boosters to blocks. I cannot assure it's all correct, you can find links to all the sources I've found directly in the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8AaRRaPyVZZ2Rxpe9lWEFXWIyRqAJqXJ--TqHuhBYw/edit?usp=sharing
GO for launch, GO for age of reflight

Offline IanThePineapple

Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #379 on: 12/18/2017 09:12 PM »
Recently, I've created an online spreadsheet matching flights of F9 v1.2 boosters to blocks. I cannot assure it's all correct, you can find links to all the sources I've found directly in the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8AaRRaPyVZZ2Rxpe9lWEFXWIyRqAJqXJ--TqHuhBYw/edit?usp=sharing

Looks good, thanks for the info!

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