SpaceX Crewed Dragon Circumlunar Mission

[Johnnyhinbos]

You guys do realize that it’s more than just a rocket and it’s engine(s) that dictates a successful human mission, right?

Life support in extreme environments is not only hard, it’s literally life changing. Have you been in a situation where your life is on the line, where you need to rely on training, preparation, and sheer grit in order to just not die?

I have.

It sucks - it sucks in a life altering way, in a way that doesn’t leave you even when you close your eyes.

Do not minimalize what this undertaking means, nor what the people who undertake will have to do to prepare. Definition of “astronaut” regardless.

Recognize this individual? I was supposed to be hosting her on this dive, but instead was fighting for my life in a hyperbaric chamber in northern FL instead... (Suni took that photo as encouragement for me and I’ll forever be grateful)

[su27k]

The Commercial Crew program isn't certifying the Dragon for that mission duration

So what mission duration is commercial crew certifying for and for how many people?

Per https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/07/starliner-milestones-ula-switches-atlas-booster-maiden-flight/, Starliner is aiming for 60 hours of free flight (with 4 people I assume), which I think it's on the minimal side for commercial crew.

[Rocket Science]

You guys do realize that it’s more than just a rocket and it’s engine(s) that dictates a successful human mission, right?

Life support in extreme environments is not only hard, it’s literally life changing. Have you been in a situation where your life is on the line, where you need to rely on training, preparation, and sheer grit in order to just not die?

I have.

It sucks - it sucks in a life altering way, in a way that doesn’t leave you even when you close your eyes.

Do not minimalize what this undertaking means, nor what the people who undertake will have to do to prepare. Definition of “astronaut” regardless.

Recognize this individual? I was supposed to be hosting her on this dive, but instead was fighting for my life in a hyperbaric chamber in northern FL instead... (Suni took that photo as encouragement for me and I’ll forever be grateful)

Yes...

[docmordrid]

Yes,  way more than once.

That said, AIUI SpaceX's ECLSS partner is Paragon SDC - who is also partnered with Honeywell to develop a long duration ECLSS for NASA and commercial programs.

Presser....(PDF)

HONEYWELL AND PARAGON TO CREATE LIFE SUPPORT TECHNOLOGY FOR  FUTURE NASA SPACE MISSIONS

Deal delivers a much-needed alternative to current environmental control and life support systems as
space missions evolve

PHOENIX, May 1, 2017 – Honeywell (NYSE: HON) and Paragon Space Development  Corporation have announced a teaming agreement that will change the way astronauts experience life in  space. The two companies will design, build, test and apply environmental control and life support  systems for future human NASA and commercial programs.
>
“This agreement allows the Honeywell and Paragon team to provide fully integrated solutions to
NASA, combining our strengths of experience and innovation in technology with an agile and customer-focused responsiveness,” said Grant Anderson, president and CEO, Paragon Space Development  Corporation. “Potential prime contractors and NASA will have access to a system-focused integration  team with a catalog of proven and emerging technology to bring long-duration exploration of the Moon and Mars to practical implementation.”
>

[Johnnyhinbos]

Yes,  way more than once.

That said, AIUI SpaceX's ECLSS partner is Paragon SDC - who is also partnered with Honeywell to develop a long duration ECLSS for NASA and commercial programs.

Presser....(PDF)

HONEYWELL AND PARAGON TO CREATE LIFE SUPPORT TECHNOLOGY FOR  FUTURE NASA SPACE MISSIONS

Deal delivers a much-needed alternative to current environmental control and life support systems as
space missions evolve

PHOENIX, May 1, 2017 – Honeywell (NYSE: HON) and Paragon Space Development  Corporation have announced a teaming agreement that will change the way astronauts experience life in  space. The two companies will design, build, test and apply environmental control and life support  systems for future human NASA and commercial programs.
>
“This agreement allows the Honeywell and Paragon team to provide fully integrated solutions to
NASA, combining our strengths of experience and innovation in technology with an agile and customer-focused responsiveness,” said Grant Anderson, president and CEO, Paragon Space Development  Corporation. “Potential prime contractors and NASA will have access to a system-focused integration  team with a catalog of proven and emerging technology to bring long-duration exploration of the Moon and Mars to practical implementation.”
>

Can we start a new thread for these Yes’s?

Honestly.

My story’s been told, but I’d love to hear the stories of others. I think it’s a valuable side resource for understanding those faceless individuals who add to the character of this forum.

[JAFO]

Have you been in a situation where your life is on the line, where you need to rely on training, preparation, and sheer grit in order to just not die?

Yes. In a few cases Luck* helped.


*"First of all, we all have our own personal beliefs and convictions, and I would never intrude on yours, so for the sake of discussion, we call our first factor "luck."  You may call it whatever you wish."
Al Haynes
Captain, UAL 232

[jpo234]

There may be a significant market for retro rides in an actual capsule by the mid-to-late 2020s.  Just like people pay to ride in a biplane or hot air balloon today...  They won't be around much after that unless there is strong tourist demand.

Different from the biplane there would probably be a significant price difference.

Lunar Dragon: Some 100mln $ per seat
Lunar Cruise on BFS: Some 1..10mln $ per seat

If there is real competition (Blue...), prices might fall below the $1mln mark.

[AbuSimbel]

There may be a significant market for retro rides in an actual capsule by the mid-to-late 2020s.  Just like people pay to ride in a biplane or hot air balloon today...  They won't be around much after that unless there is strong tourist demand.

Different from the biplane there would probably be a significant price difference.

Lunar Dragon: Some 100mln $ per seat
Lunar Cruise on BFS: Some 1..10mln $ per seat

If there is real competition (Blue...), prices might fall below the $1mln mark.

If they reach their goals with BFR (1000 flights for both the BFR and the BFS in cislunar space) of 2-3M$ cost per flight they could offer one week cruises to the moon for 100k$ per person or less. Not to mention LEO trips (several orbits and the opportunity to finally marvel at our home planet in its entirety from space) for 5000$ or so (400 people or less with 1st class costlier tickets). Who wouldn't go?

[speedevil]

Life support in extreme environments is not only hard, it’s literally life changing. Have you been in a situation where your life is on the line, where you need to rely on training, preparation, and sheer grit in order to just not die?

BFS is not an extreme environment.

Passengers do not need much training in life safety. They are not going to be taking a wrench and manfully working on the ECLSS during the trip. If they approach the ECLSS with a wrench, tie them up. All the training they need (perhaps absent suit ingress) is 'keep calm, and do what the staff tell you'.

For lunar passenger class missions, you can literally carry scuba tanks for everyone sufficient to provide atmosphere for the whole trip, as well as entirely self-contained thermal garments good from -40C to +50C or so.

The only case passengers might be at risk would be a rapid de-pressurisation or toxic gas leak or fire.

ECLSS - other than this, is not a prompt life safety risk.

It's a 'get everyone into their suits / segmented compartments sometime in the next ten hours' type of risk.

For transit to Mars, the prompt risk differs little - but you actually do need to fix the ECLSS.

[MaxTeranous]

Life support isn't talked about for this mission simply because it's a "solved" problem for journeys of a few days. How many astronaut hours/days/years have the various space agencies racked up in LEO? How many fatalities from a life support failure? I can't find 1.

Not to dismiss it entirely but peeps tend to focus on the "not done before" and not the "been there done that".

[Herb Schaltegger]

Life support isn't talked about for this mission simply because it's a "solved" problem for journeys of a few days. How many astronaut hours/days/years have the various space agencies racked up in LEO? How many fatalities from a life support failure? I can't find 1.

Not to dismiss it entirely but peeps tend to focus on the "not done before" and not the "been there done that".

Written like someone who’s never designed or maintained one of the systems providing that “solved problem.” 

Read the L2 ISS Daily Status Reports sometime. For a solved problem, life support equipment fails depressingly often.

[MaxTeranous]

Life support isn't talked about for this mission simply because it's a "solved" problem for journeys of a few days. How many astronaut hours/days/years have the various space agencies racked up in LEO? How many fatalities from a life support failure? I can't find 1.

Not to dismiss it entirely but peeps tend to focus on the "not done before" and not the "been there done that".

Written like someone who’s never designed or maintained one of the systems providing that “solved problem.” 

Read the L2 ISS Daily Status Reports sometime. For a solved problem, life support equipment fails depressingly often.

Note the "for journeys of a few days" disclaimer. ISS's ongoing life support management on 30 year old kit is completely different to keeping 2 peeps alive for a week. I'm talking about the needs for this mission (and only this mission) not for the ISS, BFR, etc.

[CuddlyRocket]

Read the L2 ISS Daily Status Reports sometime. For a solved problem, life support equipment fails depressingly often.

That's because it's designed to meet more criteria than 'reliable'. For instance: automatic, low-power, low-volume, low-mass, low need for re-supply, etc. The fact that "life support equipment fails depressingly often" tells you that 'not failing' is not the over-riding priority!

[the_other_Doug]

Life support isn't talked about for this mission simply because it's a "solved" problem for journeys of a few days. How many astronaut hours/days/years have the various space agencies racked up in LEO? How many fatalities from a life support failure? I can't find 1.

Not to dismiss it entirely but peeps tend to focus on the "not done before" and not the "been there done that".

There has been one in-flight failure of a portion of the ECLSS -- the vent system -- which claimed the lives of the Soyuz 11 crew.  You could also argue that, if the LiOH door scraping a wire bundle actually did provide the spark generator required, the early Apollo ECLSS was, if not responsible, at the very least involved in the Apollo 1 fire.  That was not in-flight, of course.

But yeah, no fatalities involving ECLSS since 1971.  That's not to say there have not been failures that pushed crews to use back-up systems for greater or lesser amounts of time, especially onboard ISS and the Mir and Salyuts.  And those all happened in LEO, where, if your primary and backup systems both go down, you have the option of coming home instead of dying.  That made a lot of people uncomfortable during Apollo, when the crews were, at times, up to three days from home, and makes people even more uncomfortable thinking about crews who are months or years away from home....

[Space Ghost 1962]

Read the L2 ISS Daily Status Reports sometime. For a solved problem, life support equipment fails depressingly often.

That's because it's designed to meet more criteria than 'reliable'. For instance: automatic, low-power, low-volume, low-mass, low need for re-supply, etc. The fact that "life support equipment fails depressingly often" tells you that 'not failing' is not the over-riding priority!

And if it proves itself repeatedly and consistently, with margin too ... it would be extremely valuable as a BLEO "safe lifeboat" at the least.

Earlier here suggested a use of Dragon 2 + FH as a LON for Orion missions, when if it wasn't used, you'd fly a lunar free return mission with the stack to recoup the cost. A form of "public/private partnership?"

[DrRobin]

Recognize this individual? I was supposed to be hosting her on this dive, but instead was fighting for my life in a hyperbaric chamber in northern FL instead... (Suni took that photo as encouragement for me and I’ll forever be grateful)

I do! Captain Williams is probably the _second_ most famous graduate of Needham High, in the small Boston-area town where my family has lived for the past twenty years (Olympic Gold Medal Gymnast Aly Raisman being the first, at least with the general public.). The town recently broke ground just a few blocks from our house on what will soon be Sunita T. Williams Elementary School! https://patch.com/massachusetts/needham/needham-breaks-ground-sunita-t-williams-elementary-school (We had a parade in her honor back in 2007, where my family got a chance to meet her.)

[rockets4life97]

Jeff Foust on Twitter:

Musk: looks like development of BFR is moving quickly, and won’t be necessary to qualify Falcon Heavy for crewed spaceflight.

.

So, can this mission fly on F9 or is any mission like this now going to have to wait for BFR?

[jpo234]

How much better and easier could BFR do this mission? A crew version of BFS could have 100 tourists making the trip in comfort, with presumably much better viewing. Even if the BFR launch cost ends up being $50m, SpaceX could charge a nice $1m per person and still make a 100% markup on the flight. Compared to $50m per person or whatever the 2 Dragon passangers are being charged.

Plus BFS could have a toilet on board, which is priceless..

I guess what I'm saying is if BFR is to be ready around 2024, then it might be worthwhile to just wait for it and do this mission in style.

Ha!
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/960628075171106816

Musk: looks like development of BFR is moving quickly, and won’t be necessary to qualify Falcon Heavy for crewed spaceflight.

[envy887]

Wow. That's either real bad news about this circumlunar flight or real good news about BFR.

Edit: Or they are planning to send the crew up on F9, and launch the departure vehicle uncrewed. Adds some costs, but could potentially be done sooner than crew-rating FH. Only the upper stage needs to be crew-rated, and that is the same as F9 anyway.

[cebri]

Jeff Foust (@jeff_foust)
Musk: we kind of tabled Crew Dragon on Falcon Heavy (including the cislunar mission announced last Feb.) and focus our energies on BFR.

RIP Grey Dragon