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#120
by
Rocket Science
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:27
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Those that aren't happy, just think of how many SpaceX lunar missions could have been funded with what has been already spent on CxP/SLS/Orion thus far... The waste...
Some $20B and counting?
Perhaps more sadly... 
At $200 million for MoonDragon there would be 100 lunar flyby missions for $20B.
Too bad congress dictates how NASA builds rockets.
Or even a lunar base with mining operations....
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#121
by
JamesH65
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:28
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Please stop calling them tourists. They are not. I'd call them adventurers, explorers, something like that. Not tourists. They are not going to turn up and go, like a tourist would.
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#122
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:28
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Now develop a service module with some kick and if NASA builds and launches their deep space habitat
Unlikely.
and you have commercial crew to the Moon.
Likely.
Where you get them interacting is in the vehicles and flight frequency. Because there is more qualified capability that becomes cheaper with repeated use.
Likely CC role expands here, in providing "point capabilities" needed, while private absorbs incrementally greater scope.
So after you do some free returns, then they'll move up to a week in lunar orbit, and then to surface access.
If govt ups its game, it wil be to do sorties to the surface, where CC derivatives could advance landers. That's why I did the thread on them.
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#123
by
jsgirald
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:28
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No mention of a crew, only 2 passengers?
People, who are going to spend so much money, are probaly ready to learn to push the abort button in case...
But think of a solvable problem, not nearly Apollo 13 leves of bad, wouldn't they like to have a pro who knows what to do and stay calm?
Once the dragon is underway, there is little that can be done. There is no engine to do fancy maneuvers.
Yes, no need for fancy maneuvers, but still something critical might break (say ECLSS).
I re-watched Apollo 13 just yesterday, those guys had years of training, first as pilots and engineers and later as astronauts. I don't think an amateur can reach that level in a couple of years.
Granted, some training for our two unnamed tourist-astronauts would be a good idea. But also remember that we've gone from flying to the moon with a computer that is as powerful as a scientific pocket calculator (1969-1972) to a world where we have cars that are better drivers than humans (Tesla, as demonstrated by the 40% reduction in Tesla crashes since Autopilot launched). With that in mind, the two tourists are probably just along for the ride and won't have much to do. And, as long as they are on a free return trajectory, then the only two things that have to work on Dragon post launch are life support and the landing system (parachutes or Super Dracos)...everything else is controlled by Sir Isaac Newton.
Well, plenty of spare parts and tools to pack then. I expect the new spacesuits will have extra reinforcement in the diapers department, just in case ...
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#124
by
Bynaus
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:28
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I'm somehow glum about this announcement. I mean, it's great that this move is happening - that the technology and processes will be developed to further humanity into space. But at the same time - to have that first great leap in 50 year go to ... tourists!?. This hurts and makes me a bit angry. People with extreme amounts of money are yet again able to buy their way though life. I would have been happier if the announcement read: "Wealthy private individuals donate significant money to SpaceX to train and launch two engineering citizen scientists on a free return orbit of the moon. The two future private astronauts will be chosen based on merit, education, and their ability to stimulate and captivate the future generation of space explorer..." (you get the idea).
Am I alone in this?
Would you rather have these wealthy individuals spend their money on overpriced wines, cars, and yachts? They are investing it in SpaceX instead, a company that will bring us to Mars one day!
Do you begrudge wealthy people their Tesla Roadsters and Model Ss that enable development of the Model 3? Wealthy people tend to be the ones that open up all sorts of new markets (eg mobile phones in the 1980s). We know where government space programmes get us; time to open things up I say.
Absolutely not! I would class investments in Teslas to be at the same level as circumlunar tourist flights. With "overpriced cars" I was more thinking of that classic rich-guy garage collection of Ferraris, Bentleys, Lamborghinis, etc. Like you say, rich people who invest in new (and still pricey) things are very beneficial to society. There is just no point in begrudging them - that was, actually, the point I was trying to make.
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#125
by
Pasander
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:31
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This can mean only one thing: SPACE SEX! (And that would be science, wouldn't it??)
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#126
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:32
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If NASA wants to send scientists of Dragon 2, they can:
"If NASA decides they want to do the first lunar orbit mission, obviously we would give them priority," Musk said.
I have to admit that while I feel incredibly excited about this announcement I was a little miffed that the first flight would go to tourists. I am not against space tourism at all. I just want the first people to return to the moon in 45 yrs to be representatives of the whole country, not tourists. After hearing what Musk said above I feel much better.
Even if the private crew goes first I will still be very excited and supportive of this amazing mission!
Wouldn't it be a trip if one of the tourists is Elon?
EDIT: Even better....Sir Richard Branson and Elon <ducks>
A Musk, a Bezos, and a Branson step into a Dragon and are launched around the Moon.
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#127
by
MATTBLAK
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:32
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'Space Tourist' will become a pejorative when used by tabloids or sniffy editorials when the subject is going to be discussed in the future.
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#128
by
DecoLV
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:34
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You know, even if the passengers are tourists it doesn't mean they can't do useful work. IF the flight goes in 2018 during the closest Mars approach, and IF they get a direct line of sight to Mars, perhaps from the dark side...could they do something useful? Take a measurement with a Lidar pulse, something like that?
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#129
by
wannamoonbase
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:34
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Or even a lunar base with mining operations....
Now you're just teasing me.
Surface operations, 3D printed radiation shielding, Lunar Oxygen for fuel, metals for 3D printing, development of a closed loop life support system.
There is so much to do on the moon and it's 1 light second away.
But first, baby steps.
Even if this slips 2 years I have no problems. I've been waiting 20+ years for people to leave earth orbit.
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#130
by
anonymousgerbil
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:35
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Also, the first time SpaceX kills people will be a significant psychological moment for the company, I hope they take their time.
Nah, quick and painless is how you want to go
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#131
by
jsgirald
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:36
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I dunno. There are some pretty smart people out there - you generally don't acquire large amounts of cash without some level of intelligence (unless you inherit it - Trump?). Did the training the Apollo guys get enable them to duct tape containers together? Or is that something any intelligent person could do. Of course, there are lots of switches in Apollo to learn - that's not the case in Dragon where everything is automated, or computer controlled.
Well, it's not about duct taping things, it's more about not panicking and keeping focus on the situation.
As a D-day veteran put it: 'Training is what makes you do the correct things when people are shooting at you'
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#132
by
gin455res
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:38
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I'm somehow glum about this announcement. I mean, it's great that this move is happening - that the technology and processes will be developed to further humanity into space. But at the same time - to have that first great leap in 50 year go to ... tourists!?.
The problem with it is ... ?
This hurts and makes me a bit angry. People with extreme amounts of money are yet again able to buy their way though life.
I am angry when, say, rich people manage to circumvent the law with their money. Here, I don't see a slightest problem: they spend their money for a fleeting moment of fame - and to help SpaceX finance R&D. Fine with me.
I would have been happier if the announcement read: "Wealthy private individuals donate significant money to SpaceX to train and launch two engineering citizen scientists on a free return orbit of the moon. The two future private astronauts will be chosen based on merit, education, and their ability to stimulate and captivate the future generation of space explorer..." (you get the idea).
You are free to become a billionaire and then do that.
Hearts and Minds. Sure it's a free country, let's hope too many others don't think it is in poor taste.
Potential alternatives:
small space telescopes
small space probes
kickstarting either a) a sustainable self-financing 'pilot' for a reality tv show format with space trips to reward successful young engin-preneurs (with a covert agenda to get the public visualising a future time when space tourism is more attainable); or b) a space-lottery
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#133
by
obi-wan
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:38
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To misquote Han Solo, "Doing a hypervelocity entry ain't like dusting crops, boy!" Entry heating rate goes like the cube of velocity, so an entry from a lunar free return trajectory (which is all they could do with a single FH) would be about three times as much heat as an orbital entry. There is no way they should do a crewed mission without a test flight which replicates the same entry conditions. (Also, there's the whole thing about navigation to maintain the free return trajectory with mid-course corrections and to hit the allowable entry corridor, use of the lift vector for heat and g-level modulation, and accuracy of the landing targeting.) So, unless they're planning to eat the cost of another FH launch, I would expect them to retarget the upcoming FH demo for a heat shield demo (probably with a used cargo Dragon?)
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#134
by
Gordon Widera
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:39
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Will D2 have USB ports to charge these guys iPads?
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#135
by
Rocket Science
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:39
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Or even a lunar base with mining operations....
Now you're just teasing me.
Surface operations, 3D printed radiation shielding, Lunar Oxygen for fuel, metals for 3D printing, development of a closed loop life support system.
There is so much to do on the moon and it's 1 light second away.
But first, baby steps.
Even if this slips 2 years I have no problems. I've been waiting 20+ years for people to leave earth orbit.
It was 1972... So 45 years for me...
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#136
by
MATTBLAK
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:41
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Once this first flight is done and dusted, I expect, maybe even hope that someone will dust off the 'Inspiration Mars' plans and pair a Dragon 2 with a Habitation module and send it off for a Venus/Mars flyby with a crew of 2.
(Rough Example)
Launch 1: Atlas V with a stretched, 'triple barrel' Cygnus-derived Habitat.
Launch 2: Falcon 9 with Dragon 2 and crew of two - they dock with Cygnus.
Launch 3: Falcon Heavy with Earth Departure Stage...
...Or adapt the above idea to having a deep space Space Station in either Distant Retrograde Lunar Orbit or Lunar Lagrange point 2; for those who think I might be off-topic
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#137
by
Space Ghost 1962
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:42
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To misquote Han Solo, "Doing a hypervelocity entry ain't like dusting crops, boy!" Entry heating rate goes like the cube of velocity, so an entry from a lunar free return trajectory (which is all they could do with a single FH) would be about three times as much heat as an orbital entry. There is no way they should do a crewed mission without a test flight which replicates the same entry conditions. (Also, there's the whole thing about navigation to maintain the free return trajectory with mid-course corrections and to hit the allowable entry corridor, use of the lift vector for heat and g-level modulation, and accuracy of the landing targeting.) So, unless they're planning to eat the cost of another FH launch, I would expect them to retarget the upcoming FH demo for a heat shield demo (probably with a used cargo Dragon?)
They could do a variation on ETF-1 with a reused booster. Lighten Dragon, come down on chutes only no escape props. Use excess F9US performance for an elliptical orbit and accelerate up to lunar reentry velocity.
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#138
by
MATTBLAK
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:43
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Please stop calling them tourists. They are not. I'd call them adventurers, explorers, something like that. Not tourists. They are not going to turn up and go, like a tourist would.
I partly agree - 'Space Tourist' will become a pejorative when used by tabloids or sniffy editorials when the subject is going to be discussed in the future.
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#139
by
jpo234
on 27 Feb, 2017 21:43
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Question: Is the Falcon Heavy human rated? Would the FAA allow this flight?
