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Lockheed Martin considering launching Electron from UK? by ringsider on 22 Feb, 2017 07:54
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Starting a new thread.
I heard a fairly solid rumor that Lockheed Martin is considering launching Rocket Lab's Electron vehicle from northern Scotland in the UK.
I was sceptical because I just don't see how Scotland is a better site than what they have in New Zealand and USA but there is some evidence that they are looking at it.
Lockheed Martin won a small study of the area last year from the UK authorities (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-space-agency-invests-in-major-rd-projects) and are already a "strategic" investor in Rocket Lab.
The UK recently announced a funding program for small satellite launchers that is nominally fixed at £10 million but is actually unlimited - it can be increased to much larger amounts "in special cases".
So... if true, why is this a good idea? Maybe they see themselves winning a chunk of public cash that would allow them to acquire Rocket Lab outright as well gaining a European launch range? VCs are in it for the financial return and want to sell eventually, but Lockheed Martin is a spaceflight company and a good natural fit as an acquirer.
Apart from that you have to wonder why that makes sense.
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#1 by Steven Pietrobon on 22 Feb, 2017 09:31
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Yes, I would have thought Rocket Lab launching from Poker Flats in Alaska would have made more sense.
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#2 by russianhalo117 on 22 Feb, 2017 15:16
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Starting a new thread.
not launching retrograde polar orbits like what is considered currently from New Zealand
I heard a fairly solid rumor that Lockheed Martin is considering launching Rocket Lab's Electron vehicle from northern Scotland in the UK.
I was sceptical because I just don't see how Scotland is a better site than what they have in New Zealand and USA but there is some evidence that they are looking at it.
Lockheed Martin won a small study of the area last year from the UK authorities (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-space-agency-invests-in-major-rd-projects) and are already a "strategic" investor in Rocket Lab.
The UK recently announced a funding program for small satellite launchers that is nominally fixed at £10 million but is actually unlimited - it can be increased to much larger amounts "in special cases".
So... if true, why is this a good idea? Maybe they see themselves winning a chunk of public cash that would allow them to acquire Rocket Lab outright as well gaining a European launch range? VCs are in it for the financial return and want to sell eventually, but Lockheed Martin is a spaceflight company and a good natural fit as an acquirer.
Apart from that you have to wonder why that makes sense. -
#3 by wardy89 on 22 Feb, 2017 16:07
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If something like this was to come to fruition i assume it has potential to be useful to European small sat manufactures as they wouldn't have to ship sats a far if the price is right of course.
The other factor is what orbits are realisticly achievable from Northern Scotland? -
#4 by CameronD on 23 Feb, 2017 05:17
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The other factor is what orbits are realisticly achievable from Northern Scotland?
In summer ..or winter?!?
New Zealand might get cold, but it doesn't get THAT cold!!
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#5 by Lars-J on 23 Feb, 2017 06:25
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If something like this was to come to fruition i assume it has potential to be useful to European small sat manufactures as they wouldn't have to ship sats a far if the price is right of course.
The other factor is what orbits are realisticly achievable from Northern Scotland?
Polar and retrograde orbits. Launching east would be problematic, but it depends where the first stage would fall, and what the Scandinavian countries would think of the overflight. -
#6 by Welsh Dragon on 23 Feb, 2017 07:59
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Sun-sync type orbits might be problematic with the Faroe Islands in the way? Depends on exact launch site, and I'm sure a bit of trajectory shaping could solve probably solve that.If something like this was to come to fruition i assume it has potential to be useful to European small sat manufactures as they wouldn't have to ship sats a far if the price is right of course.
The other factor is what orbits are realisticly achievable from Northern Scotland?
Polar and retrograde orbits. Launching east would be problematic, but it depends where the first stage would fall, and what the Scandinavian countries would think of the overflight. -
#7 by Stevenzop on 23 Feb, 2017 13:07
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I have always wondered if a highly inclined trajectory heading east from Orkney or the north east mainland might work. The north sea is pretty big, but I'm not sure what the rules on overflight actually are. How big does the ocean need to be? I'm guessing the 2nd stage should be orbital before it passes over a population?
Map attached just so happens to show the distance from an uninhabited island...
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#8 by ringsider on 23 Feb, 2017 13:28
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I have always wondered if a highly inclined trajectory heading east from Orkney or the north east mainland might work. The north sea is pretty big, but I'm not sure what the rules on overflight actually are. How big does the ocean need to be? I'm guessing the 2nd stage should be orbital before it passes over a population?
Interesting but I think the oil rigs might be an issue there.
Map attached just so happens to show the distance from an uninhabited island... -
#9 by Welsh Dragon on 23 Feb, 2017 13:49
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Yeah, that trajectory pretty much traces out some of the highest concentrations of oil and gas rigs, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549618/UKCS_Offshore_Infrastructure.pdf (And that's just the UK ones, not the Norwegian ones etc). Good news is that the polar/sun sync trajectories look clear.I have always wondered if a highly inclined trajectory heading east from Orkney or the north east mainland might work. The north sea is pretty big, but I'm not sure what the rules on overflight actually are. How big does the ocean need to be? I'm guessing the 2nd stage should be orbital before it passes over a population?
Interesting but I think the oil rigs might be an issue there.
Map attached just so happens to show the distance from an uninhabited island... -
#10 by douglas100 on 23 Feb, 2017 14:15
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Yes, agree that easterly trajectories are a non starter for the reasons you give, but polar/sun synchronous should be OK. A launch site on the north coast, a bit east of Thurso would avoid Orkney. Dunreay was talked about as a possibility, some years ago.
As far as climate is concerned, wind would be more of a problem than temperature. (I live in a city which has the same latitude as Moscow and it's unusual for snow to lie on the ground here for any more than a few days at a time in winter.) We're talking about a coastal site which is warmed by the Gulf Stream. I don't think temperature is a show stopper.
Horizon http://www.horizonsas.com/faq/ are talking about launching their Black Arrow 2 from the north of Scotland. We'll see if that pans out. But I don't see any advantage whatsoever for Rocket Lab or LM to set up here (regrettably.) -
#11 by smfarmer11 on 23 Feb, 2017 16:37
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The advantage would be the public money from the government, they could probably also net some from the ESA to for setting up in the UK.
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#12 by Davidthefat on 23 Feb, 2017 18:48
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How do we know that it's not the SPARK (Super Strypi) rocket? Sandia is operated by Lockheed Martin, but that's a totally different division than the UK branch. But why specifically did RL's Electron come to mind? Or are there other sources?
Might also be a stretch, but repurposing the Trident 2 missiles, which is already in service in the UK, or a legacy missile like the Polaris for suborbital or orbital flights might be a possibility. -
#13 by ringsider on 23 Feb, 2017 19:14
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How do we know that it's not the SPARK (Super Strypi) rocket? Sandia is operated by Lockheed Martin, but that's a totally different division than the UK branch. But why specifically did RL's Electron come to mind? Or are there other sources?
I don't know that but the information was very specific about Electron.
Might also be a stretch, but repurposing the Trident 2 missiles, which is already in service in the UK, or a legacy missile like the Polaris for suborbital or orbital flights might be a possibility.
I think Super Strypi is basically dead though (?) -
#14 by Davidthefat on 23 Feb, 2017 21:46
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I think Super Strypi is basically dead though (?)
According to this post: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27685.msg1623874#msg1623874
It's still alive. Certainly will stay alive if more money is injected into it (like the UK contract) -
#15 by Zingpc on 12 Jun, 2017 20:10
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Perhaps Beck has started a revolution in rocketry now that his electric prop pumps have been demonstrated to work. All that junk that they have to put on the engines is replaced with two shiny electric motors. And the usual five percent of propellent required to drive the turbopumps is replaced with batteries that save weight. It will be interesting to see how these scale from the tiny Rutherford engines.
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#16 by Dao Angkan on 12 Jun, 2017 21:20
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If something like this was to come to fruition i assume it has potential to be useful to European small sat manufactures as they wouldn't have to ship sats a far if the price is right of course.
Such as SSTL. The UK's forthcoming spaceflight bill might also offer regulatory advantages to launching from the UK. Along with logistical and regulatory benefits, there could also be bureaucratic advantages to launching the satellite from the country of origin (customs, export of technology etc). -
#17 by ringsider on 09 Jul, 2017 15:44
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/highlands-give-scotland-a-boost-into-the-space-race-0knxnrrm9
Highlands give Scotland a boost into the space race
Lockheed Martin consortium backs a site in Sutherland as Britain’s first base for launching rockets into orbit
A remote peninsula on Scotland’s north coast could be the launchpad for Britain’s space ambitions after plans emerged for a rocket base in Sutherland.
A consortium that includes Lockheed Martin, the US aerospace firm, believes that the A’Mhoine peninsula, between Dounreay and Cape Wrath, is the best location in Britain for a facility from which satellites can be cata- pulted into orbit on the back of 20m rockets.
A detailed proposal has been submitted to the UK Space Agency (UKSA), which has met the Highland council and Highlands and Islands Enterprise (HIE).
The HIE raised the idea of the rocket base last year.
The UKSA is understood to support the A’Mhoine proposal and believes that satellite technology can boost the economy amid a thirst for improved communication that can only be provided from space. The space agency boldly aims to capture 10% of the global space market, which is expected to be worth £400bn by 2030.
The Scottish facility — which would be the first to launch a rocket into orbit from the UK — could be operational by 2020 and generate more than £1bn over a decade.
Paul Davey, of the Lockheed Martin UK space programme, said: “We have submitted a proposal for grant funding into the UKSA satellite launch programme, the outcome of which will be known this summer. This follows more than two years of dialogue with the relevant Scottish agencies.”
The Space Industry Bill, recently introduced into the House of Lords, will be debated this week. It aims to license space activities and offer grants totalling £10m for consortia that want to launch satellites — or even manned space flights — from British soil.
While several sites are under consideration as space tourism hubs, including Prestwick in Ayrshire and Virgin Galactic’s Machrihanish in Argyll, launching satellites on behalf of the military, government and private industry offers the quickest, cheapest way to kick-start the country’s space ambitions.
The UKSA confirmed that the government “is not selecting a single national spaceport”.
“Our aim is to grow new markets in the UK for small satellite launch and sub- orbital flight, that might support multiple service providers or spaceports.”
The plan is reminiscent of the 1957 film Rockets Galore, in which a British military commander is tasked with investigating a launch base on a Scottish island.
Sources claim the A’Mhoine base would have a “modest” impact on the environment and pose no threat to public safety as spacecraft would be launched vertically over the Pentland Firth.
Up to eight rocket launches could be made a year, with each capable of carrying a 150kg payload*. This could include many as 12 small cube satellites that could be dropped into a 575-mile orbit above Earth.
It is envisaged that as the number of satellites grows, they can be linked to form powerful data-gathering “constellations” to aid scientific research and boost telecommunications.
The proposal is, however, likely to meet opposition, especially as an access road would have to be built across iconic wild land.
Helen McDade, head of policy at John Muir Trust, the conservation charity, pointed out that land around the proposed facility was designated as a national scenic area and noted for rare species such as greenshank and eagles.
HIE said the rocket proposal would involve “widespread public consultation” and be scrutinised.
The Scottish government said: “Scotland has a proud history in the design and building of satellites and we will consider all opportunities to expand this further.”
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* Which rocket would this be if not Electron? Athena I / II has a bigger payload.
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#18 by Welsh Dragon on 09 Jul, 2017 16:26
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(...) is the best location in Britain for a facility from which satellites can be cata-pulted into orbit on the back of 20m rockets.
Not sure about the aerodynamics of that....
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#19 by douglas100 on 09 Jul, 2017 16:37
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If something like this was to come to fruition i assume it has potential to be useful to European small sat manufactures as they wouldn't have to ship sats a far if the price is right of course.
Such as SSTL. The UK's forthcoming spaceflight bill might also offer regulatory advantages to launching from the UK. Along with logistical and regulatory benefits, there could also be bureaucratic advantages to launching the satellite from the country of origin (customs, export of technology etc).
Even closer than that to the proposed launch site is cubesat manufacturer Clyde Space https://www.clyde.space/about-us in Glasgow. -
#20 by Star One on 09 Jul, 2017 17:39
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How would Electron's launch capability vary from those launched from New Zealand, would it have better performance to certain classes of orbit?
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#21 by Lars-J on 10 Jul, 2017 19:00
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How would Electron's launch capability vary from those launched from New Zealand, would it have better performance to certain classes of orbit?
A very *slight* performance boost to polar/SSO orbits. (Launch sites closer to the poles give slightly better performance when launching to polar orbits, just like near-equator sites get a boost when launching to eastern orbits)
But it seems like a poor investment unless RL really starts launching so many rockets that they need a 2nd launch site. -
#22 by Star One on 10 Jul, 2017 19:25
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How would Electron's launch capability vary from those launched from New Zealand, would it have better performance to certain classes of orbit?
A very *slight* performance boost to polar/SSO orbits. (Launch sites closer to the poles give slightly better performance when launching to polar orbits, just like near-equator sites get a boost when launching to eastern orbits)
But it seems like a poor investment unless RL really starts launching so many rockets that they need a 2nd launch site.
That sounds a strange economic move to be even talking about this if it's not able to support two launch sites. -
#23 by Space Ghost 1962 on 10 Jul, 2017 19:41
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Keep in mind weather. That might limit launch availability.
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#24 by TrevorMonty on 10 Jul, 2017 19:57
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Alot of satellites maybe coming out of UK and europe. Makes it cheaper for customer to be present at launch compared to NZ or US.
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#25 by Dao Angkan on 10 Jul, 2017 23:22
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RL's NZ site looks to be pretty minimal. A similar site in Scotland might not cost much, especially with UKSA grants.
The weather isn't that bad in Northern Scotland (as already mentioned, thanks to the Gulf Stream), and they're only planning 8 launches a year, so as long as they're flexible and plan to launch to weather forecasts then the weather shouldn't be a significant issue for that level of cadence.
As the UK already has a significant small-sat industry, I could certainly see regulatory and bureaucratic benefits to launching those from the UK.
The biggest benefit though, is probably political. UK government is prioritising the space industry with their new space bill, a big part of which is regulating space flight from the UK, with the expectation of the first spaceport operating by 2020. Most analysts say that isn't realistic, but if a serious player, like Lockheed Martin comes up with a realistic proposal, then the government is likely to free up funds to help with that (tens of millions rather than hundreds).
Without getting too political, the new UK government is pretty weak (numbers-wise), it will have to focus on non-controversial policies during it's term, of which I think this would be included in (cross-party support for it), as long as it doesn't cost much. -
#26 by TrevorMonty on 11 Jul, 2017 03:56
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To justify development and permanent support staff I'd thought higher flight of 12-20 would be needed.
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#27 by ringsider on 12 Jul, 2017 16:11
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Keep in mind weather. That might limit launch availability.
Looks like the weather is not terrible:-
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/regional-climates/ns -
#28 by CameronD on 13 Jul, 2017 00:01
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New Zealand weather.
E.g. reason to have another pad elsewhere.
'Nuthin wrong with New Zealand weather. If you don't like it, come back in 10 minutes..
(That's one of the advantages of launching from any small island in the middle of a large ocean nowhere near the Trades. The weather doesn't stay the same for very long)
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#29 by Dao Angkan on 13 Jul, 2017 19:37
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Big cash boost for UK satellite sectorQuote
Dr Graham Turnock, the UK Space Agency's CEO, hopes the NSTF will see much more work retained on home soil. "It's soup to nuts, isn't it? You should be able to set up and run a space business in the UK and be able to go from conception to launch. And if we can offer that, it's going to make the UK a tremendously attractive place to do space."
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#30 by Dao Angkan on 16 Jul, 2018 00:07
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44841123Quote
A remote, boggy stretch of land on the north coast of Scotland is likely to become the UK's first spaceport.
The A'Mhoine Peninsula in Sutherland has been chosen as the most suitable place from which to launch rockets vertically to put satellites in orbit.
The UK Space Agency is giving Highlands and Islands Enterprise £2.5m towards the development of the facility.
HIE will work closely with operators. The American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin wants to be one of the partners.
The goal would be to have launches as early as possible in the 2020s.
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Lockheed has made no secret of its desire to bring the Electron rocket to Scotland. Currently, this vehicle flies out of New Zealand.
A British version of the rocket would have an upper-stage developed and built at LM's UK HQ in Ampthill, Bedfordshire.
"This is a defining moment for UK Space," a spokesperson for the company told BBC News. "Lockheed Martin has been working with Britain for over 80 years and we stand ready to support the development of UK launch capability should our extensive experience in developing space infrastructure be called upon." -
#31 by TrevorMonty on 16 Jul, 2018 01:16
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A bit more info on UK US would be nice.
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#32 by Dao Angkan on 16 Jul, 2018 13:35
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Quote
Lockheed Martin To Help UK Space Agency Build First Commercial Spaceport; Launch First Orbital Rocket
First vertical launch from Scotland planned for the early 2020s.
FARNBOROUGH, England, July 16, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- The UK Space Agency has selected Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) to help implement its vision for the UK Spaceflight Programme, an innovative initiative to create a world-leading commercial launch market that grows the UK economy through regular, reliable and responsible access to space.
"The countdown to the first orbital rocket launch from UK soil has officially begun," said Patrick Wood, Lockheed Martin's UK Country Executive for Space. "The UK Government has stated its desire to grow the UK's space sector to ten percent of the global space economy by 2030. We are proud to be selected to help them achieve this goal. This initiative will not only spark advancements in science and innovation, it will create new opportunities for current and future UK-based suppliers to become part of the next space age."
With a recent grant from the UK Space Agency, Lockheed Martin is leading a team to execute several strategic projects to support the UK Spaceflight Programme, with a goal of providing the first vertical space launch in the early 2020s.
The UK's First Space Port: The team will support the development of the nation's first commercial spaceport at the Sutherland site in Melness, Scotland. The site aims to be the UK's first vertical orbital rocket launch site. Overall site development is being led by Scottish government economic and community development agency Highlands & Islands Enterprise, with Lockheed Martin providing strategic support and guidance.
Innovative CubeSat Delivery Vehicle: Once it reaches orbit, the first rocket launched will release a Small Launch Orbital Manoeuvring Vehicle (SL-OMV), built specifically by Moog in the UK for the UK Spaceflight Programme. This agile platform will carry up to six 6U CubeSats, such as Lockheed Martin's LM 50 platform, which the vehicle can deploy at the most optimal times and positions for their respective missions. The team is currently taking requests from potential customers to fill its CubeSat manifest for this first launch.
Advanced 6U CubeSat Pathfinder: As part of the programme, Lockheed Martin teammate Orbital Micro Systems will create and fly a UK-built pathfinder test to validate the performance of the SL-OMV and ground system. The pathfinder will help lay the ground work for planned satellite constellations that are designed to deliver low latency weather observation to commercial and government customers.
"This historic 'pathfinder' launch for the UK will also demonstrate the tremendous potential small satellites and CubeSats have across a wide range of commercial and government data collection applications," said Wood. "We believe, as the UK Space Agency does, that this effort will help bring the UK to the forefront of the rapidly-growing, global small satellite market and support the UK's maturing space supply chain."
Lockheed Martin brings significant space experience to the UK's Spaceflight Programme, from ground systems, to launch vehicles, to on-orbit missions. The company's LM 50 CubeSat platform is an innovative and powerful platform that can be customized to a wide array of missions and payloads. It's one of four modernized satellite platforms Lockheed Martin offers its customers, including the LM 400 small satellite, LM 1000 remote sensing bus, and the flagship LM 2100 geostationary bus.
Lockheed Martin's team includes: Moog, Orbital Micro Systems, the University of Leicester, Surrey Satellite Technology, Satellite Applications Catapult, SCISYS, Lena Space, Reaction Engines and Netherlands Space Office.
Small Launch Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/lockheed-martin-and-orbex-to-launch-uk-into-new-space-ageQuoteUnder the plans, global space leader Lockheed Martin and innovative spaceflight company Orbex will launch rockets into space from the north coast of Scotland.
The grants from the UK Space Agency consist of:
Two separate grants worth a combined £23.5 million to Lockheed Martin to establish vertical launch operations at Sutherland using proven technology and to develop an innovative new system in Reading for deploying small satellites. Known as an orbital manoeuvring vehicle, this will be the upper stage of Lockheed Martin’s rocket and will deploy up to six small satellites to separate orbits.
£5.5 million to UK-based Orbex to build an innovative new rocket for launch from Sutherland, with the support of British manufacturing operations and supply chains. Their orbital launch vehicle, called Prime, will deliver small satellites into Earth’s orbit, using a single renewable fuel, bio-propane, that cuts carbon emissions by 90% compared to hydrocarbon fuels.
The companies will work together with Highlands and Islands Enterprise, which has been awarded £2.5 million to develop a vertical launch site in Sutherland.
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The UK and US will also soon begin formal negotiations towards a Technology Safeguards Agreement, which will establish the legal and technical safeguards that can support U.S. space launch vehicles to operate from UK launch sites. Attracting US operators to the UK will enhance our space capabilities and boost the whole market.
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#33 by yg1968 on 16 Jul, 2018 23:51
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There is also an article in SpaceNews:
https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-orbex-to-launch-from-new-british-spaceport/ -
#34 by Comga on 17 Jul, 2018 15:16
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So there is an article in Space News about this.
Lockheed gets $31M from the UK Space Agency to develop a "Small Launch Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle (SL-OMV) an upper stage tht will be manufactured by Moog in the U.K. to place up to six six-U cubesats into orbit."
That sounds like the UK is paying Lockheed to develop an alternative, essentially a competitor, to the Curie based Electron third stage, so long as the money is spent in the UK.
That plus having Lockheed develop cubesats for weather observation, as long as they, too are developed domestically. (Orbital Micro Systems is listed as a British company in Harwell, Oxfordshire, but the folks on their website are mostly American and their main office is in Boulder, Colorado. The BBC calls them a UK firm and says "OMS is moving into Britain because of the support offered to new space firms.")
edit: The BBC says OMS will open a data center in Harwell, Oxfordshire and a hardware lab in Glasgow, Scotland.
Surely Rocketlabs didn't have or use $31M funding for Curie.
And Orbex gets $7M from UKSA, too.
Virgin Orbit's Launcher One may also get funding and a runway.
Fighting gravity is hard enough for rocket builders.
Fighting market interference by government agencies might be even harder. -
#35 by Davidthefat on 17 Jul, 2018 15:26
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So there is an article in Space News about this.
Lockheed gets $31M from the UK Space Agency to develop a "Small Launch Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle (SL-OMV) an upper stage tht will be manufactured by Moog in the U.K. to place up to six six-U cubesats into orbit."
That sounds like the UK is paying Lockheed to develop an alternative, essentially a competitor, to the Curie based Electron third stage, so long as the money is spent in the UK.
Is that pretty much a development of a smaller propulsive ESPA Ring that interfaces with the smaller 15 inch payload interface in smaller launch vehicles? They are marketing that as a stand alone upper stage instead of marketing as a satellite bus? -
#36 by yg1968 on 17 Jul, 2018 21:16
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Another article by SN says that Lockheed martin hasn't yet decided on the LV:
https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-yet-to-select-vehicle-to-launch-from-british-spaceport/ -
#37 by nacnud on 17 Jul, 2018 21:50
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Keep in mind weather. That might limit launch availability.
Looks like the weather is not terrible:-
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/regional-climates/ns
I'd be worried about wind and wind shear (jet stream). -
#38 by Star One on 18 Jul, 2018 06:53
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Another article by SN says that Lockheed martin hasn't yet decided on the LV:
https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-yet-to-select-vehicle-to-launch-from-british-spaceport/
But is there any other choice for them in the class of launcher planned to be able to be accommodated at this launch site? -
#39 by Star One on 14 Oct, 2018 10:02
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BBC Radio news have been reporting that LM have said that the first U.K. launch should be by 2020 from Scotland. I can’t however find where this information is coming from, even looking on the BBC news website I can find nothing about it.
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#40 by SciNews on 15 Oct, 2018 19:19
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Nik Smith (Lockheed Martin) appeared in BBC The Sky at Night - Space Britannia https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bntqjf
Main points:
- A'Mhoine peninsula it's a good location for access into the polar orbit and also Sun-synchronous orbit
- spaceport to have small infrastructure
- the first launch by the end of 2020, maybe into 2021
