Author Topic: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?  (Read 50542 times)

Offline whitelancer64

Huh? The XS-1 was never going to be SSTO.

The author seemed to be an ex-mining engineer.

But it is still a shuttle type of space craft ! ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XS-1_(spacecraft)

By "Shuttle type" do you mean "has wings"?

Because wings were not a requirement for the XS-1 launch vehicle. The Masten proposal for the XS-1 did not have wings.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline spaceman100

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #221 on: 01/03/2019 09:39 am »
Huh? The XS-1 was never going to be SSTO.

The author seemed to be an ex-mining engineer.

But it is still a shuttle type of space craft ! ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XS-1_(spacecraft)

By "Shuttle type" do you mean "has wings"?

Because wings were not a requirement for the XS-1 launch vehicle. The Masten proposal for the XS-1 did not have wings.

Okay then ...but Boeing had wings.

Mine has too.


Offline whitelancer64

Huh? The XS-1 was never going to be SSTO.

The author seemed to be an ex-mining engineer.

But it is still a shuttle type of space craft ! ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XS-1_(spacecraft)

By "Shuttle type" do you mean "has wings"?

Because wings were not a requirement for the XS-1 launch vehicle. The Masten proposal for the XS-1 did not have wings.

Okay then ...but Boeing had wings.

Mine has too.



"Shuttle" is, or can be, a generic term for a vehicle that goes back and forth between two locations, i.e., an Airport Shuttle is a passenger van that goes back and forth from a hotel to the airport.

It doesn't necessarily mean "has wings." It's OK if that's what you meant, I just wanted to clarify.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline spaceman100

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #223 on: 01/03/2019 08:38 pm »
Yes yes....comprende amigo !  ??? ;D

Also back and forth to Mars and Earth ?

Offline spaceman100

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #224 on: 01/08/2019 03:00 pm »

Here he mentions that F9 second stage is capable to be an SSTO;


You misunderstood, Elon Musk said that the Falcon 9 1st stage can SSTO without second stage / payload (for that matter, so can a variety of other 1st stages), but what's the point if there's no payload? It is possible, but it is not useful.

I wonder as he claims that his BFS can also be an SSTO; https://www.quora.com/Elon-Musk-just-confirmed-that-the-BFS-is-an-SSTO-So-why-is-the-BFR-Booster-even-necessary-given-the-fact-that-the-BFS-can-refuel-in-space

Offline hkultala

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #225 on: 01/08/2019 03:26 pm »

Here he mentions that F9 second stage is capable to be an SSTO;


You misunderstood, Elon Musk said that the Falcon 9 1st stage can SSTO without second stage / payload (for that matter, so can a variety of other 1st stages), but what's the point if there's no payload? It is possible, but it is not useful.

I wonder as he claims that his BFS can also be an SSTO; https://www.quora.com/Elon-Musk-just-confirmed-that-the-BFS-is-an-SSTO-So-why-is-the-BFR-Booster-even-necessary-given-the-fact-that-the-BFS-can-refuel-in-space

Posted question into quora is not a reliable source for any claim. The question line itself a claim by totally anonymous person, as quora does not even show who posted the question, and is FULL of questions with factual errors in the question.

AFAIK Elon has said BFS/Spaceship can probably reach orbit. Than means only reaching some orbit, it does not mean
* reaching the orbit anybody wants to reach
* carrying any meaningful payload to any orbit
* getting back from the orbit and landing.

So, it is practically worthless as an SSTO vehicle from earth to LEO

It's reasonable as SSTO vehicle at Mars.


« Last Edit: 01/08/2019 03:47 pm by hkultala »

Offline spaceman100

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #226 on: 01/08/2019 06:06 pm »

Here he mentions that F9 second stage is capable to be an SSTO;


You misunderstood, Elon Musk said that the Falcon 9 1st stage can SSTO without second stage / payload (for that matter, so can a variety of other 1st stages), but what's the point if there's no payload? It is possible, but it is not useful.

I wonder as he claims that his BFS can also be an SSTO; https://www.quora.com/Elon-Musk-just-confirmed-that-the-BFS-is-an-SSTO-So-why-is-the-BFR-Booster-even-necessary-given-the-fact-that-the-BFS-can-refuel-in-space

Posted question into quora is not a reliable source for any claim. The question line itself a claim by totally anonymous person, as quora does not even show who posted the question, and is FULL of questions with factual errors in the question.

AFAIK Elon has said BFS/Spaceship can probably reach orbit. Than means only reaching some orbit, it does not mean
* reaching the orbit anybody wants to reach
* carrying any meaningful payload to any orbit
* getting back from the orbit and landing.

So, it is practically worthless as an SSTO vehicle from earth to LEO

It's reasonable as SSTO vehicle at Mars.

How could it possibly be reasonable at Mars as it hardly even reaches Mars as it has to land there with 100 people ?

Online programmerdan


It's reasonable as SSTO vehicle at Mars.

How could it possibly be reasonable at Mars as it hardly even reaches Mars as it has to land there with 100 people ?

Reasonable assumes it has fully refueled at Mars. There, the dV requirement to reach orbit is much less then Earth, so it can reach orbit without additional staging. I haven't run the numbers to see what kind of payload it can bring, or if it can return to Earth unassisted, but given the assumption baked into the plans I'd say those numbers should work out.

Offline Kenp51d

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #228 on: 01/10/2019 06:48 pm »
IIRC the 2017 version had 150 tons earth up mass and 50 tons return mass.
The only numbers I recall for 2018 are 100 tons earth up mass. Down mass may have been stated, but I can't remember.
 It with SS other than SpaceX, who knows?
But like I said IIRC

Ken

Offline Hauerg

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #229 on: 01/10/2019 06:52 pm »
IIRC the 2017 version had 150 tons earth up mass and 50 tons return mass.
The only numbers I recall for 2018 are 100 tons earth up mass. Down mass may have been stated, but I can't remember.
 It with SS other than SpaceX, who knows?
But like I said IIRC

Ken
IIRC it was 25 to Mars to Earth.
But that was before switch to steel.

Offline spaceman100

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #230 on: 01/11/2019 06:58 am »

It's reasonable as SSTO vehicle at Mars.

How could it possibly be reasonable at Mars as it hardly even reaches Mars as it has to land there with 100 people ?

Reasonable assumes it has fully refueled at Mars. There, the dV requirement to reach orbit is much less then Earth, so it can reach orbit without additional staging. I haven't run the numbers to see what kind of payload it can bring, or if it can return to Earth unassisted, but given the assumption baked into the plans I'd say those numbers should work out.

How could you possibly refuel a 100 ton vehicle in Mars ? This escapes me !

Online programmerdan


It's reasonable as SSTO vehicle at Mars.

How could it possibly be reasonable at Mars as it hardly even reaches Mars as it has to land there with 100 people ?

Reasonable assumes it has fully refueled at Mars. There, the dV requirement to reach orbit is much less then Earth, so it can reach orbit without additional staging. I haven't run the numbers to see what kind of payload it can bring, or if it can return to Earth unassisted, but given the assumption baked into the plans I'd say those numbers should work out.

How could you possibly refuel a 100 ton vehicle in Mars ? This escapes me !

Look into the Sabatier reaction / process; it and other ISRU (in-situ resource utilization) approaches are discussed elsewhere in this forum and other places -- the long story short, however, is that it's quite achievable both on first principles and in application, you just need enough energy at your depot to run a fuel production process (w/ available raw materials).

Online Tuna-Fish

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #232 on: 01/12/2019 04:24 pm »
Who makes the landing pads ?

SpaceX reportedly wants to be able to land on unprepared surfaces. I am very skeptical that this would ever work, at least in the sense that the rocket would be able to take off again. I think the first people down there will have to build a landing pad for the rocket that will take them back up.

Quote
Where do the solar panels come from who installs them..
Well, they would come on a ship similar to what brought the crew. SpaceX has done some work on automatically deploying panels, but I don't know how well that can ever work.

Personally, I think nuclear is a better bet.

Quote
how much solar panel area is needed ?
Depending on your assumptions, you need somewhere between 2-6 MW continuous for two years to make enough methane + lox to fully fill up a SS, including all the processes. Because of nights, you need ~double this if using solar.

Quote
How do solar panels make fuel..out from what ?

You basically need CO2 and H2O as feedstocks. H2O is likely best provided by something like a rodriquez well, CO2 can be densified from the air.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #233 on: 01/12/2019 09:58 pm »
SpaceX reportedly wants to be able to land on unprepared surfaces. I am very skeptical that this would ever work, at least in the sense that the rocket would be able to take off again. I think the first people down there will have to build a landing pad for the rocket that will take them back up.
The plan AFAIK is the first 2 ships will be a) Uncrewed b) Not take off again.
So not an issue for the first landings.
They will test the landing situation and (presumably) carry hardware to prepare a landing ground for the first crewed flights. 
Quote from: Tuna-Fish
Well, they would come on a ship similar to what brought the crew. SpaceX has done some work on automatically deploying panels, but I don't know how well that can ever work.
Well, every satellite that has not used body mounted panels has had to do automatic deployment. It's not ideal, but it's certainly possible. While that on Mars would be in a gravity field and have to be cleaned friction and lubrication issues (tribology) has been (and still is) a massive issue for in space deployment due to the very low pressure and very high temperature gradient effects.
So not easy, but certainly doable.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Online Tuna-Fish

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #234 on: 01/14/2019 03:58 pm »
The plan AFAIK is the first 2 ships will be a) Uncrewed b) Not take off again.
So not an issue for the first landings.
They will test the landing situation and (presumably) carry hardware to prepare a landing ground for the first crewed flights. 

How well will a robotic system build a launch pad? I still feel that the end result might well be that the first astronauts will go to mars with the tools to build one and their uncrewed return ship that goes to mars orbit. Then they need to first build their landing/launch pad before they can land the return ship on it.

Well, every satellite that has not used body mounted panels has had to do automatic deployment. It's not ideal, but it's certainly possible. While that on Mars would be in a gravity field and have to be cleaned friction and lubrication issues (tribology) has been (and still is) a massive issue for in space deployment due to the very low pressure and very high temperature gradient effects.
So not easy, but certainly doable.

This is an issue of scale. ~4MW solar installation using modern common commercial panels would require a an area of ~20000m^2 or a square 141m on the side. You can reduce this a lot if you go with more efficient multi-junction panels, but the issue still remains that we are talking about areas measured in "multiple football fields". In terms of weight, this is not a problem -- a single Starship could easily carry multiple such installations per trip. However, solar panels spouted from the vehicle itself won't work for this, you need some kind of vehicle to come pick them up from the rocket, put them down on the ground, and come back to repeat.

Offline nacnud

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #235 on: 01/14/2019 04:05 pm »
However, solar panels spouted from the vehicle itself won't work for this, you need some kind of vehicle to come pick them up from the rocket, put them down on the ground, and come back to repeat.

Not a problem, roll out a solar panel from each of the rear mounted cargo containers with a curiosity type rover. Or even a rover based on the tesla skateboard chassis. SWAG you could get 12 of these on the base of the Starship for around 600 kwp. Probably more if you use higher efficiency cells.


Offline john smith 19

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Re: What would a second generation Space Shuttle look like?
« Reply #236 on: 01/16/2019 05:55 am »
I'll note 2 things.

1) The OP has never posted again on this thread (and in fact has posted 3 times since they joined in 2016).

2) How SX would land a vehicle on Mars, how a landing pad would be prepared, how PV panels can be deployed on Mars etc have nothing to do with a designing a second generation space Shuttle.

BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP stainless steel structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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