I recall this issue being raised before, but it was a while ago and the situation may have changed. Is it reasonably possible to 3D print an emdrive, or a major portion of it? I mean direct fab and not making a wax model, a mold, and then casting it.
I am not asking if the typical $800 hobbyist unit can do this, though it would be interesting if such a device could. I am talking about the big expensive machines from places like Stratasys...can they do this? If so, does it economically make sense?
The reason I ask is because I have tax reasons to quickly spend money (six figures) on industrial equipment (before the end of the year). If buying a high-end 3d printer and using it to make some money by producing emdrive prototypes for people has a chance of being economically feasible, I'd like to know and get started ASAP.
I think the casting places typically have their own 3d printer. All you do is provide the CAD file for the part. They will update it to work with their type of casting, and the type of finish required, and give you a chance to approve it before the part is cast. It's not that expensive, nowhere near six figures! 
But for a high Q you need a post-printing/casting step for polishing. 3D printing can give you a near-net-shape, but the surface finish is nowhere near good enough. A 3D metal printer big enough to build an aluminum EMDrive in the 2.4 GHz range is upwards of $1M. We just priced them at work
How the universe does maths...
Some simple mathematical operations are very useful in equations describing how the universe appears to work. It is then only normal to wonder how these operations are done in or by the universe itself.
Let’s start with the addition. There are two ways in which to use the addition. One way is the conceptual addition. For example, I have $5 in my pocket and $10 in the bank. Addition says I have $15 in all. Nothing has moved. The other way of adding is by literally getting things together, like pouring milk in your coffee. This is the method we learned in kinder garden where addition meant getting and moving beads or what not together in a pile. This is the “natural” way of adding and the way the universe uses. A planet does not compute what mass is floating around it. No, it gains or adds mass by literally sucking up mass closer and onto its surface. We see here that the natural addition has a geometric component i.e. adding means getting stuff closer. Secondly, this natural addition comes with the addition of the properties of that stuff. Whatever the stuff is, it has mass, so mass is the first property necessarily added. On top of that, other properties will add up. If this stuff is, say, emitting light, their addition will increase the intensity i.e. more light coming from a smaller volume. ( I won’t go here-now into adding charges or magnetic domains..)
Now, a planet will gain or add mass spontaneously through gravity. So, for matter addition is a spontaneous process. But, subtracting mass by moving it away from the planet will require energy and is not a spontaneous process. Matter subtraction is not a spontaneous process.
To division now. Cutting a pie in four pieces is a conceptual division. The “natural” division of the pie consists in taking the four pieces away from each other in a way as symmetric as possible. What does that mean for a planet? A sort of explosion where all the pieces move away from each other i.e. the same mass but in a larger volume. So, in some sense, the “natural” division is like an integrated subtraction over a spherical volume...(?) This division is not a spontaneous process in the first instance; a lot of energy must be supplied first in order to create a condition for it to happen, in second instance, spontaneously. The reverse is multiplication, where matter occupies a smaller volume as with interstellar dust gathering to form a star. Multiplication is a spontaneous process because of gravity.
So, what kind of universe are we in? Matter in the universe undergoes spontaneous multiplication (aggregation), while the expanding universe is in ..... spontaneous division? How come the universe’s division is a spontaneous process, when it is not for matter?
I believe that the universe is somehow spontaneously “falling” and moving into the lowest rate of time possible; nothingness.... So, beyond the geometry of it all, the same type of cause is behind both the spontaneous multiplication or aggregation of matter and the spontaneous division or expansion of the universe.... This is a “different way” (to say the least) in which to consider how the universe naturally effects simple mathematical operations.
I will conclude by saying that, IMO, the word “spontaneous” is the most underused concept in physics. If we were to consider for a moment how things naturally evolve spontaneously out there, we would understand that most time reversal equations on paper do not really work “in reverse” by themselves. The observation of unidirectional processes should invite the concepts of spontaneous processes, causality, all under a single logical and fully entropic system.
[ emDrive related? Sure! Just bringing home the causal structure....the scenic way]
Food for thought ....
How the universe does maths...
Some simple mathematical operations are very useful in equations describing how the universe appears to work. It is then only normal to wonder how these operations are done in or by the universe itself.
Let’s start with the addition. There are two ways in which to use the addition. One way is the conceptual addition. For example, I have $5 in my pocket and $10 in the bank. Addition says I have $15 in all. Nothing has moved. The other way of adding is by literally getting things together, like pouring milk in your coffee. This is the method we learned in kinder garden where addition meant getting and moving beads or what not together in a pile. This is the “natural” way of adding and the way the universe uses. A planet does not compute what mass is floating around it. No, it gains or adds mass by literally sucking up mass closer and onto its surface. We see here that the natural addition has a geometric component i.e. adding means getting stuff closer. Secondly, this natural addition comes with the addition of the properties of that stuff. Whatever the stuff is, it has mass, so mass is the first property necessarily added. On top of that, other properties will add up. If this stuff is, say, emitting light, their addition will increase the intensity i.e. more light coming from a smaller volume. ( I won’t go here-now into adding charges or magnetic domains..)
Now, a planet will gain or add mass spontaneously through gravity. So, for matter addition is a spontaneous process. But, subtracting mass by moving it away from the planet will require energy and is not a spontaneous process. Matter subtraction is not a spontaneous process.
To division now. Cutting a pie in four pieces is a conceptual division. The “natural” division of the pie consists in taking the four pieces away from each other in a way as symmetric as possible. What does that mean for a planet? A sort of explosion where all the pieces move away from each other i.e. the same mass but in a larger volume. So, in some sense, the “natural” division is like an integrated subtraction over a spherical volume...(?) This division is not a spontaneous process in the first instance; a lot of energy must be supplied first in order to create a condition for it to happen, in second instance, spontaneously. The reverse is multiplication, where matter occupies a smaller volume as with interstellar dust gathering to form a star. Multiplication is a spontaneous process because of gravity.
So, what kind of universe are we in? Matter in the universe undergoes spontaneous multiplication (aggregation), while the expanding universe is in ..... spontaneous division? How come the universe’s division is a spontaneous process, when it is not for matter?
I believe that the universe is somehow spontaneously “falling” and moving into the lowest rate of time possible; nothingness.... So, beyond the geometry of it all, the same type of cause is behind both the spontaneous multiplication or aggregation of matter and the spontaneous division or expansion of the universe.... This is a “different way” (to say the least) in which to consider how the universe naturally effects simple mathematical operations.
I will conclude by saying that, IMO, the word “spontaneous” is the most underused concept in physics. If we were to consider for a moment how things naturally evolve spontaneously out there, we would understand that most time reversal equations on paper do not really work “in reverse” by themselves. The observation of unidirectional processes should invite the concepts of spontaneous processes, causality, all under a single logical and fully entropic system.
[ emDrive related? Sure! Just bringing home the causal structure....the scenic way]
Food for thought ....
Spontaneous reactions might describe the observed result but not the cause. Once all the causes of these type reactions are identified, we'll better understand the universe. However, we cannot directly observe the bulk of the universe. EmDrive might allow us to take a step in that direction IF we can identify what is happening in this open system. To date, I believe we are observing a result, not the cause of the spontaneous reaction...a displacement force.
Now, a planet will gain or add mass spontaneously through gravity. So, for matter addition is a spontaneous process. But, subtracting mass by moving it away from the planet will require energy and is not a spontaneous process. Matter subtraction is not a spontaneous process.
Although it is true that a planet will gain mass through its gravitation field pulling in other matter, it is also worth noting that nuclear processes within the planet or star will result in the planet/star giving off a significant amount of energy. This radiation/energy will escape the gravitation field excepting for black holes(in theory). So there is also a loss occurring simultaneously(though it may or may not be as large as the gains depending on many other factors.
I believe that the universe is somehow spontaneously “falling” and moving into the lowest rate of time possible; nothingness.... So, beyond the geometry of it all, the same type of cause is behind both the spontaneous multiplication or aggregation of matter and the spontaneous division or expansion of the universe.... This is a “different way” (to say the least) in which to consider how the universe naturally effects simple mathematical operations.
So if I understand the theory you are proposing could be succinctly stated as:
1. "All matter/energy is attracted toward the lowest rate of time possible."
2. "Since general relativity shows that higher gravitation fields experience slower time, matter is pulled into these fields which is what we see as gravity."
Does that summarize what you are saying? Would like to make sure I'm clear on your hypothesis.
I recall this issue being raised before, but it was a while ago and the situation may have changed. Is it reasonably possible to 3D print an emdrive, or a major portion of it? I mean direct fab and not making a wax model, a mold, and then casting it.
I am not asking if the typical $800 hobbyist unit can do this, though it would be interesting if such a device could. I am talking about the big expensive machines from places like Stratasys...can they do this? If so, does it economically make sense?
The reason I ask is because I have tax reasons to quickly spend money (six figures) on industrial equipment (before the end of the year). If buying a high-end 3d printer and using it to make some money by producing emdrive prototypes for people has a chance of being economically feasible, I'd like to know and get started ASAP.
I think the casting places typically have their own 3d printer. All you do is provide the CAD file for the part. They will update it to work with their type of casting, and the type of finish required, and give you a chance to approve it before the part is cast. It's not that expensive, nowhere near six figures!
But for a high Q you need a post-printing/casting step for polishing. 3D printing can give you a near-net-shape, but the surface finish is nowhere near good enough. A 3D metal printer big enough to build an aluminum EMDrive in the 2.4 GHz range is upwards of $1M. We just priced them at work
Or you could do old fashioned CNC/casting + polishing for a fraction of your suggested cost.
I know there's been some talk about the drive pushing against some quantum vacuum, but maybe something like this is what's happening? Not sure if it's some separate phenomenon, or just a bigger version of the same thing, but it seems like something to add.
It has connotations of something I have been suspecting for a bit now. That light may be stimulation of the quantum vacuum, made up of what is primarily observed as electrons and positrons, but the positrons being positive electrons, being positive because they are running backwards in time while having negative mass. Negative mass/time behaving like real mass/time till it encounters positive mass/time and becomes negative in mass again annihilating its positive mass/time counterpart. It takes work to separate them so real energy and appears to create real mass. In annihilation the electron overlaps with the positron and disturbs the others around it causing a wave, losing energy to light, or other less disturbed pairs.
Unless massive amounts of light are concentrated into a very small area, you likely can't spontaneously create the pairs. However, the creation of mass from separation of the pairs represents the non-linear behavior. If one can osculate the non-linear pairs in a resonant fashion I think it may be possible to induce matter/anti-matter pairs at much lower energy levels. Some papers have indicated this.
The giant magnetic fields would have an effect on the pairs locally. Light being their vibrations, causing them to move in a magnetic field. acceleration of the pair along a B field line should not effect their propagation but perpendicular motion may cause deflection - enhancing polarization effects.
Something I was considering was if the EM drive can make light more massive at one end in a cavity that the light could lose energy to the cavity in the form of Doppler shifts. Such Doppler shifts may directly represent some local acceleration of the pairs and hence some local acceleration of a frame of reference for light.
I'm still wondering if their polarization could induce a flow in time and hence gravity effects (anti-matter=negative mass-time)
Also with light losing energy to Doppler shifts indicates a change in frequency f_o=(f_i-df). Low Q cavities possibly handling light changing in frequency over time better because of their larger frequency range. It may be beneficial to have successive cavities ranging from small to large in daisy chain operation. That is the smaller cavities operating at high frequency lower Q downshift light till it resonates in the next cavity. Have their Q's overlap so that light can be passed from one cavity to the next as the light gets rejected from the cavity it was in.
Those 2nd cavities in the daisy chain lighting up would possibly be evidence of some direct energy drain on the light.
I thought you'd know by now how TT will answer. The route this conversation takes goes as follows:
1) Statement that the theoretical explanations on offer are non-nonsensical
2) Contradictions are rebuffed by endorsing data above theory
3) Statements to the effect that all theories are flawed but the good ones still make physical sense
4) Appeal to the authority of Shawyer because he made EM Drive work
5) Go to 1
I know, I am just giving it one last shot in light of the new thread (and for casual readers who look through the first few pages of a thread), my response to #2 this time (unless TT changes his pattern, and actually answers my questions) is planned to be along the lines of "I am tired of this cycle but figured I would give it one last shot. Just know that in the future when no one counters your claims it is only because everyone has given up on you listening to reason."
Data is above theory. Throwing out solid data that doesn't 'fit' current theory is not good science. Of course the key is having good reliable data not just any data. That's what NASA tried to do.
There is no data throwing out going on. My response to this is number 3 from RotoSequence's list, no data can save an inconsistent theory.
Any closed mechanical system should not provide a means to generate net momentum yet an electromagnetic system might since it is related to relativity, quantum field theory and at least weakly to gravitation.
"relativity, quantum field theory, and gravitation" does not magically make a closed system an open one. For a system to be open, it needs to interact with something else by some mechanism. Of what you listed only gravitation is a mechanism (for the purpose of the definition I just provided), the others in no way make a system open, they are just physics frameworks. Even for gravity, you did not state what it would be interacting with. Also an electromagnetic system should have smaller coupling to gravity than a purely mechanical one (as implied when you said "weakly"), so that doesn't make a strong argument.
So I submitted a query to a local foundry to die cast aluminum frustum 40cm tall, 1.5cm wall thickness and 0.05mm surface tolerance. Since it's not a mass production unit, the prototype would cost about 600 EUR.
Is 0.05mm surface tolerance good enough to obtain high Q or should i look into options to smoothen it further.
So I submitted a query to a local foundry to die cast aluminum frustum 40cm tall, 1.5cm wall thickness and 0.05mm surface tolerance. Since it's not a mass production unit, the prototype would cost about 600 EUR.
Is 0.05mm surface tolerance good enough to obtain high Q or should i look into options to smoothen it further.
That would be the largest emdrive built to date. A 2.4Ghz TE013 emdrive is ~24cm in length with a major end-plate diameter ~32cm, minor end-plate diameter of ~16cm.
Also, 1.5cm wall thickness is way overkill. It may be difficult to see any resonance patterns through so much metal. I would say 5mm is plenty.
So I submitted a query to a local foundry to die cast aluminum frustum 40cm tall, 1.5cm wall thickness and 0.05mm surface tolerance. Since it's not a mass production unit, the prototype would cost about 600 EUR.
Is 0.05mm surface tolerance good enough to obtain high Q or should i look into options to smoothen it further.
0.05mm tolerance is fine.
Surface needs to be very smooth, polished to a mirror like finish. NO SCRATCHES.
5 to 6mm thick side walls and min 10mm thick spherical end plates are fine.
So I submitted a query to a local foundry to die cast aluminum frustum 40cm tall, 1.5cm wall thickness and 0.05mm surface tolerance. Since it's not a mass production unit, the prototype would cost about 600 EUR.
Is 0.05mm surface tolerance good enough to obtain high Q or should i look into options to smoothen it further.
What is the diameter of small and big ends, so someone like Monomorphic can calculate frequency?
With such large size, the operational frequency will be lower than anything tested to date (very good point) and Q should be very high if the frustum is well polished (preferably silver-plated or even gold flash over silver plating) so what do you plan to use as an RF generator?
Do you plan to make the end plates flat or better spherical?
So I submitted a query to a local foundry to die cast aluminum frustum 40cm tall, 1.5cm wall thickness and 0.05mm surface tolerance. Since it's not a mass production unit, the prototype would cost about 600 EUR.
Is 0.05mm surface tolerance good enough to obtain high Q or should i look into options to smoothen it further.
What is the diameter of small and big ends, so someone like Monomorphic can calculate frequency?
With such large size, the operational frequency will be lower than anything tested to date (very good point) and Q should be very high if the frustum is well polished (preferably silver-plated or even gold flash over silver plating) so what do you plan to use as an RF generator?
Do you plan to make the end plates flat or spherical?
Assuming TE013 excitment and Df around 0.8, freq would be around 1.5GHz (middle of L band) as a VERY rough guess.
Assuming TE013 excitment and Df around 0.8, freq would be around 1.5GHz (middle of L band) as a VERY rough guess.
In
this post ARW wanted to go the high power route with an RF source in the kilowatt range.
What kind of narrow band source available on the market can output ~1 kWrf at ~1.5GHz besides klystrons?
0.05mm tolerance is fine.
Surface needs to be very smooth, polished to a mirror like finish. NO SCRATCHES.
5 to 6mm thick side walls and min 10mm thick spherical end plates are fine.
Inside will be gold plated. So far I haven't received a reply for my query but based on wheel rim prices it shouldn't be too expensive.
What is the diameter of small and big ends, so someone like Monomorphic can calculate frequency?
With such large size, the operational frequency will be lower than anything tested to date (very good point) and Q should be very high if the frustum is well polished (preferably silver-plated or even gold flash over silver plating) so what do you plan to use as an RF generator?
Do you plan to make the end plates flat or better spherical?
Exact dimensions of the frustum are still in the making. We just had rough idea of the size we wanted because I had to make a query to get the price. The goal is to have EM drive to operate up to 10kw with spherical end plates.
Btw just to clear things up, I'm not going to be the one building it. I've masters in biochemical engineering(far from expertise required). I will be providing financial support as well as building equipment as part of signed agreement between my company and university.
A good friend of mine is head of physics department in a university. He and few phd students will be building and testing it. I may provide pictures of the build in 2017 as it progresses however testing data will be subject to NDA until paper is published/refused or experiment failed and no thrust was detected.
0.05mm tolerance is fine.
Surface needs to be very smooth, polished to a mirror like finish. NO SCRATCHES.
5 to 6mm thick side walls and min 10mm thick spherical end plates are fine.
Inside will be gold plated. So far I haven't received a reply for my query but based on wheel rim prices it shouldn't be too expensive.
What is the diameter of small and big ends, so someone like Monomorphic can calculate frequency?
With such large size, the operational frequency will be lower than anything tested to date (very good point) and Q should be very high if the frustum is well polished (preferably silver-plated or even gold flash over silver plating) so what do you plan to use as an RF generator?
Do you plan to make the end plates flat or better spherical?
Exact dimensions of the frustum are still in the making. We just had rough idea of the size we wanted because I had to make a query to get the price. The goal is to have EM drive to operate up to 10kw with spherical end plates.
Btw just to clear things up, I'm not going to be the one building it. I've masters in biochemical engineering(far from expertise required). I will be providing financial support as well as building equipment as part of signed agreement between my company and university.
A good friend of mine is head of physics department in a university. He and few phd students will be building and testing it. I may provide pictures of the build in 2017 as it progresses however testing data will be subject to NDA until paper is published/refused or experiment failed and no thrust was detected.
There is a lot more involved to get good force generation than just building a frustum and filling it with Rf.
Excitment should be in TE013 as it has low losses and shallow cone angle. Design and build goal should be a min Qu of 100,000, which can be directly measured via the forward power rise time to 63,2% or 1 TC. 0.05mm build accuracy is OK. Multi layers are ok. Surface finish is of prime importance as it needs to be like optical quality and NO SCRATCHES.
TE013 is also important as in that mode there are no eddy currents that cross from end plate to side wall and the physical end plate to side wall joint will not experience arcing across the joint, which can occur in other modes. I think Dave has pictures of the joint arcs that occured in his frustum.
I DO NOT suggest you use a wide band source. You need single freq excitment and that freq needs to be adjustable in +-1kHz steps to get the lowest reflected power. Then further tuned to get best static force generation or best dynamic accelerative force generation. Plus your coupler need to be optimised to work without external tuners. IE you may need to be able to move the coupler around and alter orientation.
All doable but not simple nor apparent until you have build a few EmDrives.
So TE 013 mode; 914.85MHz using HFSS via Eigenmode solver Q of 118602 with an S11 of 15dB; resonance at 914.069MHz. If anyone on here knows how the pattern of the resonance helps EM Drive/Q Thruster thrust - looking at it from the side, six green circles in two rows tapered end to big end with the two tapered end circles extremely red, the large diameter end all green. I'd love for someone to explain to me what pattern you want to see for maximum thrust.
Anyone want to take a shot at doing better at 914.85MHz?
Also anyone opposed to copper cladded stainless steel - we are going to potentially pressurize the vessel with argon the headache being we will have a PSV.
So TE 013 mode; 914.85MHz using HFSS via Eigenmode solver Q of 118602 with an S11 of 15dB; resonance at 914.069MHz. If anyone on here knows how the pattern of the resonance helps EM Drive/Q Thruster thrust - looking at it from the side, six green circles in two rows tapered end to big end with the two tapered end circles extremely red, the large diameter end all green. I'd love for someone to explain to me what pattern you want to see for maximum thrust.
Anyone want to take a shot at doing better at 914.85MHz?
Also anyone opposed to copper cladded stainless steel - we are going to potentially pressurize the vessel with argon the headache being we will have a PSV.
Patterns sound right, Q is around what I would expect, maybe a bit low, S11 rtn loss of 15dB is not good. Would expect to see 35dB or better.
Cu cladded SS should be OK at say 50um thickness but SS is bad for thermal management.
Why Argon? The max E field will be a long way below Kilpatrick Limit.
Please post a screen shot of the mode pattern.
So TE 013 mode; 914.85MHz using HFSS via Eigenmode solver Q of 118602 with an S11 of 15dB; resonance at 914.069MHz. If anyone on here knows how the pattern of the resonance helps EM Drive/Q Thruster thrust - looking at it from the side, six green circles in two rows tapered end to big end with the two tapered end circles extremely red, the large diameter end all green. I'd love for someone to explain to me what pattern you want to see for maximum thrust.
Anyone want to take a shot at doing better at 914.85MHz?
Also anyone opposed to copper cladded stainless steel - we are going to potentially pressurize the vessel with argon the headache being we will have a PSV.
What kind of coupler did you use to get that S11?
I don't think anyone can answer which mode is best yet, the TE01X have a relatively high quality which is why Shawyer suggests TE013. But who knows, maybe there is a mode shape in which the dissipation (or whatever the thrust mechanism is) overrides the importance of quality.
What do you mean by "better at 915 MHz"? better quality?
Why 915 MHz? Considering using a magnetron?
Copper cladded shouldn't make a difference as long as its thicker than the skin depth.
0.05mm tolerance is fine.
Surface needs to be very smooth, polished to a mirror like finish. NO SCRATCHES.
5 to 6mm thick side walls and min 10mm thick spherical end plates are fine.
Inside will be gold plated. So far I haven't received a reply for my query but based on wheel rim prices it shouldn't be too expensive.
What is the diameter of small and big ends, so someone like Monomorphic can calculate frequency?
With such large size, the operational frequency will be lower than anything tested to date (very good point) and Q should be very high if the frustum is well polished (preferably silver-plated or even gold flash over silver plating) so what do you plan to use as an RF generator?
Do you plan to make the end plates flat or better spherical?
Exact dimensions of the frustum are still in the making. We just had rough idea of the size we wanted because I had to make a query to get the price. The goal is to have EM drive to operate up to 10kw with spherical end plates.
Btw just to clear things up, I'm not going to be the one building it. I've masters in biochemical engineering(far from expertise required). I will be providing financial support as well as building equipment as part of signed agreement between my company and university.
A good friend of mine is head of physics department in a university. He and few phd students will be building and testing it. I may provide pictures of the build in 2017 as it progresses however testing data will be subject to NDA until paper is published/refused or experiment failed and no thrust was detected.
There is a lot more involved to get good force generation than just building a frustum and filling it with Rf.
Excitment should be in TE013 as it has low losses and shallow cone angle. Design and build goal should be a min Qu of 100,000, which can be directly measured via the forward power rise time to 63,2% or 1 TC. 0.05mm build accuracy is OK. Multi layers are ok. Surface finish is of prime importance as it needs to be like optical quality and NO SCRATCHES.
TE013 is also important as in that mode there are no eddy currents that cross from end plate to side wall and the physical end plate to side wall joint will not experience arcing across the joint, which can occur in other modes. I think Dave has pictures of the joint arcs that occured in his frustum.
I DO NOT suggest you use a wide band source. You need single freq excitment and that freq needs to be adjustable in +-1kHz steps to get the lowest reflected power. Then further tuned to get best static force generation or best dynamic accelerative force generation. Plus your coupler need to be optimised to work without external tuners. IE you may need to be able to move the coupler around and alter orientation.
All doable but not simple nor apparent until you have build a few EmDrives.
Thank you for your feedback. Over the weekend we will be having few meetings to discuss and finalize all the details so I could start working on getting necessary equipment. Feel free to add any other remarks.
Another question I have is how to proceed with end plates, is there a need for any kind of seal or simply bolt 2 pieces together?
Also could you recommend RF generator to match my design vision of up to 10kw.
