Do you? Since your diagram only uses classical Newtonian mechanics, we can easily calculate the kinetic energy and momentum of the system after each collision using Newton's laws with some vector math. Oh, you haven't done the math yourself yet, probably because you are extremely busy? NO PROBLEM! We can do it together.
Oh, I get it now. ...and now I'm feeling the remorse. I've no idea why I just dove right in there without doing more research first... and in a big thread, too. Normally I'm much more guarded, especially about physics. Maybe time and circumstance have been less kind to me than I've realized. Anyway, my apologies, folks.
The attached three slides is all I ran for the EW copper frustum using its TM010 resonant mode without a dielectric insert in the frustum, and no magnetic damper in the vacuum chamber, having been temporarily replaced with an oil damper.
Best, Paul M.
Paul,
Did you measure the forward power for the resonant and non resonant tests?
Phil:
Look at the RF amp current in the upper right hand corner of the force plots. When well matched it takes ~8.5 amps to develop 90W at 975 MHz where as at 920 MHz it it takes 10.0 amps to get the same power reading which means the cavity was sinking or the amplifier was sinking this extra RF power in some TBD manner. However at the time I never had the freedom to further explore this question.
Best,
Paul,
As we both know very well, exciting off resonance will very significantly reduce the forward power being accepted by the frustum and very significantly increase reflected power, which as there was not an isolator (circulator with dummy load), the Rf amp would thermalise the reflected power. Plus off resonance excitation reduces Q to a very low value.
Forward + Reflected power = Rf amp output power. Which implies the Rf amp power input would not vary so much, which is what your data shows.
As to the discussion in your SSI video video #2 between you and Dr. Rodal. The static force direction you measured without the dielectric in TE012 mode, being small to big is what Roger measured with both the Experimental and Demonstrator EmDrives static force test rigs and what I measured. So your non dielectric TE012 force direction DOES agree with other experimental data.
Roger's claimed big to small force vector is for his dynamic Reaction force that is, as per his statements, only measurable via F = M * A during free acceleration of mass.
Before end 2nd qtr 2017, I plan to have measured the accelerative force direction and value, plus a lot more acceleration data such as is the force generation constant during acceleration or not.
Phil,
If you work out these measurements, including a good analysis of possible error sources (RF cable, etc.) it can yield an interesting report.
Peter
Wonder when Boeing Phantom Works will decloak their EmDrive work?
Boeing has a long history of being engaged in this kind of (controversial) research, isn't it?
I know they have done replications of the torsion pendulum work of the late Erwin J. Saxl (solar eclipse effects, Saxl & Allen, 1971).
Attached picture, pendulum disc at Boeing, from Saxl's lab notebooks.
Well it seems the source of the Chinese EmDrive article is legit.
http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2016-12/11/content_357004.htm
It's the official newspaper of the Ministry of Science and Technology of the People's Republic of China.
Yes, good find! I made some investigations too:
Science and Technology Daily (科技日报, Keji Ribao) is the official newspaper of the Ministry of Science and Technology of the People's Republic of China. It is published in Chinese and based in Beijing.[3][4] Historically, it was one of the few Chinese newspapers to cover the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.[5][6][7] More importantly, by nature, it is regarded as the authority for science and technology issues with objective and scientific perspectives.
Then, who are
Dr CHEN Yue at
China Academy of Space Technology and
LI Feng?
The China Academy of Space Technology (CAST) (Chinese: 中国空间技术研究院; pinyin: zhōngguó kōngjiān jìshù yánjiū yuàn) is a Chinese space agency and subordinate of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC). The agency was founded on 20 February 1968 and is the main spacecraft development and production facility in China. On 24 April 1970 CAST successfully launched China's first artificial satellite Dong Fang Hong I.
Official English version of CAST website:
http://www.cast.cn/item/list.asp?id=1561I found this paper by Dr Chen Yue (coauthor: Mr. Ren Zhang, Institute of Communication Satellite, China Academy of Space Technology) presented at the 64th International Astronautical Congress of the IAF in 2013:
https://iafastro.directory/iac/archive/browse/IAC-13/C4/P/16863/Author: Dr. Chen Yue, China, [email protected]
Mr. Ren Zhang, Institute of Communication Satellite, China Academy of Space Technology, China, [email protected]
THE RESEARCH ON THE PRINCIPLE OF EMDRIVE PROPULSION TECHNOLOGY
Abstract
EmDrive (Electromagnetic Drive) is a new concept of propulsion technology in recent years. The technology has many advantages, and it is a revolutionary new technology. The performance of spacecraft can be greatly improved by EmDrive. However, the principle of EmDrive remains controversial. The electromagnetic wave distribution in the EmDrive's resonant cavity is studied in the paper emphatically. The EmDrive's resonant cavity has the characteristics as of cutoff waveguide. By reference to the phenomena of electromagnetic wave anomalous propagation in the cutoff waveguide, the fact that the electromagnetic wave can be reflected without metal surface in the cutoff waveguide is presented in the paper. At the same time, another fact that the electromagnetic wave distribution in the EmDrive's resonant cavity showing a characteristic of evanescent wave is presented also. It is a kind of electromagnetic wave anomalous propagation. This anomalous propagation can be described by the photon tunneling effect, consistent with quantum field theory. At last the opinion that EmDrive revealing some properties of background vacuum is put forward in the paper and the introduction of the virtual photon process may be a new method to analyze the momentum conservation of EmDrive.
None of those three people:
CHEN Yue,
REN Zang,
LI Fengwere part of Dr YANG Juan's team in her 5 published papers, among HE Guo-Qiang, JIN Yi-Zhou, LI Peng-Fei, LIU Xian-Chuang, LUO Li-Tao, MA Nan, MA Yan-Jie, NING Zhong-Xi, SHI Feng, TANG Ming-Jie, WANG Yang, WANG Yun-Min, WANG Yu-Quan, YANG Le, ZHU Yu.
If this turns out to be real, as in it generates thrust via some new physics... Then doesn't that mean we, both taxpayers and publicly funded research entities, have to take a real REAL good look at some of the overlooked hastily labeled crackpot inventions.
Cause this turning out to be real, after 20+ years of being labeled crackpot, means there could be more "new physics" that was overlooked.
Let's be realistic... Can we afford to throw away countless diamonds hidden in coals.... At this critical stage in our planets environmental situation?
What if Podkletnov is onto something?
What's if Lazar is onto something?
What if Hutchinson is into something?
Again... If emdrive turns out to be real...i don't see how anyone could stubbornly cling on to the "crackpot" bandwagon.
What if it turns out to be false? Will you jump on the other wagon...
Well it seems the source of the Chinese EmDrive article is legit.
http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2016-12/11/content_357004.htm
It's the official newspaper of the Ministry of Science and Technology of the People's Republic of China.
Yes, good find! I made some investigations too:
Science and Technology Daily (科技日报, Keji Ribao) is the official newspaper of the Ministry of Science and Technology of the People's Republic of China. It is published in Chinese and based in Beijing.[3][4] Historically, it was one of the few Chinese newspapers to cover the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.[5][6][7] More importantly, by nature, it is regarded as the authority for science and technology issues with objective and scientific perspectives.
Then, who are Dr CHEN Yue at China Academy of Space Technology and LI Feng?
The China Academy of Space Technology (CAST) (Chinese: 中国空间技术研究院; pinyin: zhōngguó kōngjiān jìshù yánjiū yuàn) is a Chinese space agency and subordinate of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC). The agency was founded on 20 February 1968 and is the main spacecraft development and production facility in China. On 24 April 1970 CAST successfully launched China's first artificial satellite Dong Fang Hong I.
Official English version of CAST website: http://www.cast.cn/item/list.asp?id=1561
I found this paper by Dr Chen Yue (coauthor: Mr. Ren Zhang, Institute of Communication Satellite, China Academy of Space Technology, China) presented at the 64th International Astronautical Congress of the IAF in 2013:
https://iafastro.directory/iac/archive/browse/IAC-13/C4/P/16863/
Author: Dr. Chen Yue, China, [email protected]
Mr. Ren Zhang, Institute of Communication Satellite, China Academy of Space Technology, China, [email protected]
THE RESEARCH ON THE PRINCIPLE OF EMDRIVE PROPULSION TECHNOLOGY
Abstract
EmDrive (Electromagnetic Drive) is a new concept of propulsion technology in recent years. The technology has many advantages, and it is a revolutionary new technology. The performance of spacecraft can be greatly improved by EmDrive. However, the principle of EmDrive remains controversial. The electromagnetic wave distribution in the EmDrive's resonant cavity is studied in the paper emphatically. The EmDrive's resonant cavity has the characteristics as of cutoff waveguide. By reference to the phenomena of electromagnetic wave anomalous propagation in the cutoff waveguide, the fact that the electromagnetic wave can be reflected without metal surface in the cutoff waveguide is presented in the paper. At the same time, another fact that the electromagnetic wave distribution in the EmDrive's resonant cavity showing a characteristic of evanescent wave is presented also. It is a kind of electromagnetic wave anomalous propagation. This anomalous propagation can be described by the photon tunneling effect, consistent with quantum field theory. At last the opinion that EmDrive revealing some properties of background vacuum is put forward in the paper and the introduction of the virtual photon process may be a new method to analyze the momentum conservation of EmDrive.
None of those three people: CHEN Yue, REN Zang, LI Feng
were part of Dr YANG Juan's team in her 5 published papers, among HE Guo-Qiang, JIN Yi-Zhou, LI Peng-Fei, LIU Xian-Chuang, LUO Li-Tao, MA Nan, MA Yan-Jie, NING Zhong-Xi, SHI Feng, TANG Ming-Jie, WANG Yang, WANG Yun-Min, WANG Yu-Quan, YANG Le, ZHU Yu.
Jamie,
Nice find. So it seems the Chinese space agency sort of decloaked in 2013?
It is my understanding that Prof Yang's work was replicated and verified by another Chinese lab in 2010. Now we know which lab that was. The Chinese space agency.
If this turns out to be real, as in it generates thrust via some new physics... Then doesn't that mean we, both taxpayers and publicly funded research entities, have to take a real REAL good look at some of the overlooked hastily labeled crackpot inventions.
Cause this turning out to be real, after 20+ years of being labeled crackpot, means there could be more "new physics" that was overlooked.
Let's be realistic... Can we afford to throw away countless diamonds hidden in coals.... At this critical stage in our planets environmental situation?
What if Podkletnov is onto something?
What's if Lazar is onto something?
What if Hutchinson is into something?
Again... If emdrive turns out to be real...i don't see how anyone could stubbornly cling on to the "crackpot" bandwagon.
What if it turns out to be false? Will you jump on the other wagon...
The force generation by the EmDrive is not false.
It is as real now as it was in 2002 when Roger released the 1st details of his Experimental EmDrive.
Time to stop doubting and to start working on theory that predicts all the measured data, configurations, firce vectors, force types and values or be left very far behind, very quickly.
.........
Jamie,
Nice find. So it seems the Chinese space agency sort of decloaked in 2013?
It is my understanding that Prof Yang's work was replicated and verified by another Chinese lab in 2010. Now we know which lab that was. The Chinese space agency.
Would also mean they're -possibly- some years ahead in research and development on EMdrive's.
I imagine they didn't work with the shoestring budget EagleWorks had to wrestle with?
The new Chinese team seems to follow "the photon tunneling" path as a theoretical explanation...
But wouldn't that turn the EMdrive into a photon rocket?
Which is in conflict with the observed forces, that are clearly magnitudes greater then what a photon rocket would produce?
Google translation:
"At present, the thrust is measured to micro-cow level to millennial level, at least to improve the level of 100 cents or even cattle-level satellite can be used for attitude control, orbit and so on."
.........
Jamie,
Nice find. So it seems the Chinese space agency sort of decloaked in 2013?
It is my understanding that Prof Yang's work was replicated and verified by another Chinese lab in 2010. Now we know which lab that was. The Chinese space agency.
Would also mean they're -possibly- some years ahead in research and development on EMdrive's.
I imagine they didn't work with the shoestring budget EagleWorks had to wrestle with?
The new Chinese team seems to follow "the photon tunneling" path as a theoretical explanation...
But wouldn't that turn the EMdrive into a photon rocket?
Which is in conflict with the observed forces, that are clearly magnitudes greater then what a photon rocket would produce?
Need to be able to get the paper and read it.
Have asked my Chinese sources what are the best ways to get in contact with Dr. Chen Yue and/or his EmDrive group and to determine if he or his group have published any more papers?
Google translation:
"At present, the thrust is measured to micro-cow level to millennial level, at least to improve the level of 100 cents or even cattle-level satellite can be used for attitude control, orbit and so on."
gives a whole new meaning to the expression: "holy cow !"
Google translation:
"At present, the thrust is measured to micro-cow level to millennial level, at least to improve the level of 100 cents or even cattle-level satellite can be used for attitude control, orbit and so on."
gives a whole new meaning to the expression: "holy cow !"
But we as Europeans, shouldn't we measure it in "horses"?
But we as Europeans, shouldn't we measure it in "horses"?
Found this explanation from PotomacNeuron: "Newton" translated into Chinese by pronunciation is "niu dun", which happens to mean "bull (or cow or cattle etc) pause" and "bull" for short.
.........
Jamie,
Nice find. So it seems the Chinese space agency sort of decloaked in 2013?
It is my understanding that Prof Yang's work was replicated and verified by another Chinese lab in 2010. Now we know which lab that was. The Chinese space agency.
Would also mean they're -possibly- some years ahead in research and development on EMdrive's.
I imagine they didn't work with the shoestring budget EagleWorks had to wrestle with?
The new Chinese team seems to follow "the photon tunneling" path as a theoretical explanation...
But wouldn't that turn the EMdrive into a photon rocket?
Which is in conflict with the observed forces, that are clearly magnitudes greater then what a photon rocket would produce?
I asked Dr Arto Anilla in Finland how his somewhat similar (?) theoretical explanation in his paper
"On the exhaust of electromagnetic drive" could provide a thrust efficiency superior to that of a perfectly collimated photon rocket. His answer:
As apparent from our AIP paper our main interest was to say that vacuum comprises of paired photons. This is of course in a striking contrast with ideas about virtual photons of vacuum. This standard stance, as you surely know, was taken by NASA's most recent work by Harold White et al. Otherwise they talk about vacuum just as we do by referring to de Broglie pilot-wave idea as well as to the recent elegant demonstrations by Yves Couder et al. (Their paper was submitted already a year ago, and thus they probably gave us directly these old ideas when reviewing our paper. I am grateful for that.)
Your specific question is familiar to me. I will put that matter to you first in another context, namely, gravitational red and blue shift of a photon. So, the photon assumes the energy of its surroundings, may that surrounding be a gravitational potential or the energy density in a substance or cavity. It is the photon that is the conserved entity of nature, not its energy, just as Lewis intended when introducing the notion of photon.
The trouble of knowing for sure what is the maximum thrust, is the trouble of knowing paired photon energy when it escapes. I recall that in a report by NASA the dielectric material at one end of the cavity was said to be important, whatever that meant. This sort of reasoning about energy would also be subject to criticism that is difficult to handle when without firm knowledge of the photon energy density within cavity, especially along the paired photon jet, as well as the photon energy density in materials that beam passes thru. This reasoning can, of course, be expressed in terms of the photon velocity to apply the formula in our paper.
Since I have been chiefly interested in universality, I am inclined to think about the maximal thrust just as I would do for an ordinary jet engine. Inbound fuel has low speed but high energy whereas the outbound exhaust has high speed but low energy content.
The pairing of photons is a shift down in energy. Electromagnetic potential vanishes. It is available for the thrust. That's what the paper says.
With best regards,
Arto
And about how exactly the photons can escape the metal walls or the cavity:
I picture the cavity walls for the photon pair when it forms as transparent. Since the pair has no electromagnetic field, it will escape to sparser surrounding.
Check this that I learned about recently
With best regards,
Arto
However Chen & Ren's 2013 paper seems to relate the "photon tunneling effect" with
evanescent waves.
.........
Jamie,
Nice find. So it seems the Chinese space agency sort of decloaked in 2013?
It is my understanding that Prof Yang's work was replicated and verified by another Chinese lab in 2010. Now we know which lab that was. The Chinese space agency.
Would also mean they're -possibly- some years ahead in research and development on EMdrive's.
I imagine they didn't work with the shoestring budget EagleWorks had to wrestle with?
The new Chinese team seems to follow "the photon tunneling" path as a theoretical explanation...
But wouldn't that turn the EMdrive into a photon rocket?
Which is in conflict with the observed forces, that are clearly magnitudes greater then what a photon rocket would produce?
Need to be able to get the paper and read it.
Have asked my Chinese sources what are the best ways to get in contact with Dr. Chen Yue and/or his EmDrive group and to determine if he or his group have published any more papers?
I asked IAF secretariat directly. I'll share the paper here if I have a chance to get an answer.
Google translation:
"At present, the thrust is measured to micro-cow level to millennial level, at least to improve the level of 100 cents or even cattle-level satellite can be used for attitude control, orbit and so on."
Proof that thrust from the EMDrive is a bunch of bull.
(My sincerest apologies. I couldn't resist.
)
I emailed Fernando Minotti about latest Eagleworks results, in particular the two opposite force vectors of the Brady frustum with or without the PE discs at small end in TE012 mode, so he may compare those numbers with the Brans-Dicke scalar-tensor theory he uses in his peer-reviewed paper on the EmDrive. Here is his response:
Just to comment to you that indeed, using the information you kindly sent me, with precise dimensions of the cavity, etc, I checked that according to the ST theory the TE012 generates a force in the direction of the large diameter end of the cone. Even the magnitude is not that far off: 51 uN/W, a factor of 13.4 of the reported 3.85 uN/W.
Please consider that I'm using spherical caps instead of plane ones (the resonance frequency differs in about 5%, and the cavity quality factor Q by about 15%). Also, the constant itself used in the paper in G&C differs from that determined by Mbelek and Lachièze-Rey in an undetermined term, which was assumed not to affect dramatically the value employed. A change of about a factor of 10 is then very acceptable, and indeed the force mesurements by March is a far better way to fully determine the constant.
Please let me know if you have information on the TM010 tests without dielectric insert.
Best regards,
Fernando
Maybe Paul March has those numbers for tests in TM010 (TM212?) mode without dielectric insert?
* G&C = Gravitation and Cosmology journal
All:
The attached three slides is all I ran for the EW copper frustum using its TM010 resonant mode without a dielectric insert in the frustum, and no magnetic damper in the vacuum chamber, having been temporarily replaced with an oil damper.
Best, Paul M.
Great! Thank you. I'll let you know of the results plugin those values in the scalar-tensor model.
I love this international collaboration 
As promised, Dr Minotti's answer, even if Eagleworks TM010 data doesn't play well with the scalar-tensor theory this time:
The ST model definitely does not fit here. I'm getting for NASA's TM010 2.8 mN/W (directed toward the small end of the cavity), which is more or less the standard values I got for the chinese group and Shawyer's. We are talking of something close to four orders of magnitude off (and wrong direction).
In any case, the problem is rather tricky. On the one hand the theoretical force is not easy to evaluate as it involves a complex multidimensional integral (the expression (7) in the attached cavity_thrust.pdf), with results very sensitive to the EM mode considered, the details of the cavity, wall mass distribution, etc.
On the other hand there is a point related to the problem of the large gravitational effects by the earth magnetic field. The solution I advanced invalidates the determination of the constant (kappa in the cavity_thrust.pdf) as done by Mbelek by fitting the discrepant values of G to the local magnetic field. By doing the same analysis with the solution to the non-linear problem with no anomalous gravitational effects (see attached G_fitting.pdf) the constant happens to be more than 1000 times smaller (the precise value depends on omega and its derivative), which gives forces on the cavity of the same magnitudes as measured by NASA. In this respect, as you say, the experimental data has the final answer.
Best regards,
Fernando
I attach Fernando's document
"Evaluation of thrust in a closed cavity" below.
If this turns out to be real, as in it generates thrust via some new physics... Then doesn't that mean we, both taxpayers and publicly funded research entities, have to take a real REAL good look at some of the overlooked hastily labeled crackpot inventions.
Cause this turning out to be real, after 20+ years of being labeled crackpot, means there could be more "new physics" that was overlooked.
Let's be realistic... Can we afford to throw away countless diamonds hidden in coals.... At this critical stage in our planets environmental situation?
What if Podkletnov is onto something?
What's if Lazar is onto something?
What if Hutchinson is into something?
Again... If emdrive turns out to be real...i don't see how anyone could stubbornly cling on to the "crackpot" bandwagon.
If there is any lesson to retain if the Emdrive finally proves itself IMO (as it seems more likely by the day), is that science on the West needs to be more empiric and open to reproducible evidence.
The Emdrive has never been about words and wishful thinking, and very much about reproducible experiments.
Let's notice the truth or falsehood of other fringe theories and technologies is independent of any validation of the Emdrive, though.
Nevertheless, it is indeed very curious that the dam seems to be bursting for other such fringe technologies/theories as well, like LENR. Which is off topic, so I'll stop there.
