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#3340 by Rodal on 27 Mar, 2017 15:19
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Thanks for the expansion on my rather terse note, Jose. I forget sometimes that not everyone knows of the various Interstellar Events, even space enthusiasts.
There is also this workshop scheduled in NY city, for the middle of June:
AdamAdam, by TVIW is referring to:
https://tviw.us/
TENNESSEE VALLEY INTERSTELLAR WORKSHOP
TVIW 2017
October 4th – 2017
Huntsville, AL
Downtown Embassy Suites
list of featured presentations here:
https://tviw.us/featured-presentations/
A WORKSHOP ON INTERSTELLAR FLIGHT, ORGANIZED BY THE INSTITUTE FOR INTERSTELLAR STUDIES, THE PHYSICS DEPARTMENT AND THE CENTER FOR THEORETICAL PHYSICS AT CITY TECH
June 13-15, 2017, New York, NY USA
http://www.citytech.cuny.edu/physicsworkshop/
From the website, "the confirmed potential speakers" (their own wording) are listed below:
http://www.citytech.cuny.edu/physicsworkshop/#speakers
Notice Dr. White's presentation (bold blue below for emphasis) on the EM Drive tests at NASA, and his theoretical model now named "Pilot Wave Model" , the DeBroglie-Bohm hidden-variables theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie%E2%80%93Bohm_theory), which is explicitly nonlocal, and hence ostensible in conflict with special relativity
Effects of Enhanced Graphene Reflection on Performance of Sun-launched Interstellar Arks, Gregory L Matloff, New York City College of Technology
Solar System Escape Mission with Solar Sail Spacecraft in the Framework of Post-Newtonian Gravitational Theory, Olga L. Starinova and Irina V. Gorbunova, Samara National Research University, Russian Federation.
Enabling the First Generation of Interstellar Missions, Philip M Lubin, UC Santa Barbara, Breakthrough Initiative
Heat Transfer in Fusion Starship Radiation Shielding Systems, Michel Lamontagne, Icarus Interstellar
The Prediction of Particle Bombardment Interaction Physics due to Ions, Electrons and Dust in the Interstellar Medium on a Gram-Scale Interstellar Probe, Kelvin F. Long, Institute for Interstellar Studies / Breakthrough Initiative
Solar Sail Propulsion: A Roadmap from Today's Technology to Interstellar Sailships, Les Johnson and Edward E. Montgomery, Tennessee Valley Interstellar Workshop / MontTech LLC
The Fusion Fuel Resource Base in our Solar System, Robert G. Kennedy III, Institute for Interstellar Studies.
Pilot Wave Model for Impulsive Thrust from RF Test Device Measured in Vacuum, Harold G White, NASA Johnson Space Center
Continuous Grid Inertial Electrostatic Confinement Fusion, Raymond J. Sedwick et al., University of Maryland
Tests of Fundamental Laws and Principles of Physics in Interstellar Flight, Roman Ya. Kezerashvili, City Tech, City University of New York
Positron Propulsion for Interplanetary and Interstellar Travel, Ryan Weed et al., Positron Dynamics Inc / Cornell University
for Day 3 they list the following (including an image that looks reminiscent of one of Dr. Sonny White's previous presentations on the Alcubierre drive:
):
http://www.citytech.cuny.edu/physicsworkshop/#day3
Proposed methods for mining energy from the Quantum Vacuum.
The generation and control of large negative energy densities, derivation of space-time metrics to reduce negative energy requirements, and/or higher dimensional physics models.
Emergent gravity/emergent quantum mechanics models, pilot wave theory, or other new approaches to reconciling Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity which leads to new space-time transport solutions.
Space drive concepts that generate force by interactions with the vacuum/space-time.
Experimental approaches/findings related to the exploration of breakthrough propulsion concepts. -
#3341 by PotomacNeuron on 27 Mar, 2017 16:38
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I fabricated a loop EMI probe. Yes, I used a stick from the yard as rigid support.
There is a 5cm diameter unshielded loop at the tip, then coax, then an 8Ghz DC block, and then a USB spectrum analyser, which you can see in my hand. It is very sensitive, and by using it I was able to sniff out the majority of the noise to the 12V power leads - especially when the main amp is sitting idle. I saw very little EMI coming from the main 4000 mAh LiPo 12V battery itself - or the individual components.
I'm open to suggestions. I'm thinking I could try using shielded wire (possibly coax) for the main power leads and then use a few ferrites.
Leads can not generate that amount of noise. They merely carry it around. The noise can either be from the battery, or from the main amplifier. If it is from the battery, adding capacitor on the battery end will reduce the noise. If it is from the amplifier, adding capacitor to the amplifier end will reduce the noise. I think you can experiment each way to find out the true source of noise. After that, you may add capacitor, beads, coax, or other ways you like to control it. -
#3342 by ThatOtherGuy on 27 Mar, 2017 16:49
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Or ... noise may come from oscillators, remamber that a computer, even a tiny one, needs a clock to work ...
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#3343 by ThatOtherGuy on 27 Mar, 2017 17:09
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I fabricated a loop EMI probe. Yes, I used a stick from the yard as rigid support.
There is a 5cm diameter unshielded loop at the tip, then coax, then an 8Ghz DC block, and then a USB spectrum analyser, which you can see in my hand. It is very sensitive, and by using it I was able to sniff out the majority of the noise to the 12V power leads - especially when the main amp is sitting idle. I saw very little EMI coming from the main 4000 mAh LiPo 12V battery itself - or the individual components.
I'm open to suggestions. I'm thinking I could try using shielded wire (possibly coax) for the main power leads and then use a few ferrites.
Leads can not generate that amount of noise. They merely carry it around. The noise can either be from the battery, or from the main amplifier.
Yes, that's the point, cables may carry noise, be it due to insufficient filtering or skin effect...
I've built enough vacuum tubes stuff to know the effects of "bad cabling" mind me
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#3344 by X_RaY on 27 Mar, 2017 19:09
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As discussed in the past (and as far as my memory serves) Monomorphic will run dummy load tests to check(characterize) possible displacement of the pendulum when all systems are running.
I think this is an important test regarding the impact of any involved devices. The later results with the frustum should be compared against the results of this tests. -
#3345 by rq3 on 27 Mar, 2017 20:39
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I fabricated a loop EMI probe. Yes, I used a stick from the yard as rigid support.
There is a 5cm diameter unshielded loop at the tip, then coax, then an 8Ghz DC block, and then a USB spectrum analyser, which you can see in my hand. It is very sensitive, and by using it I was able to sniff out the majority of the noise to the 12V power leads - especially when the main amp is sitting idle. I saw very little EMI coming from the main 4000 mAh LiPo 12V battery itself - or the individual components.
I'm open to suggestions. I'm thinking I could try using shielded wire (possibly coax) for the main power leads and then use a few ferrites.
Coaxial cable can generate a substantial amount of noise all by itself. Under movement/vibration, the conductors (center core and shield) move relative to the dielectric. A quick search just for illustrative purposes:
https://www.newenglandwire.com/Blog/2015/June/Why%20Low-Noise%20Cable
It is very common when attempting ultralow phase noise measurements (-215 dBc/Hz) to use semi-rigid coax, which are then temperature cycled several times (at least 6) between liquid nitrogen and the upper temperature limit of the cable. This forces the dielectric to expand and contract and eventually "relax" into a preferred, relatively stable condition.
I don't know what you are seeing in your picture. Shield leakage, microphonics, electrostatics, radio stations?
If you keep this up, your torsion pendulum will be able to join the LIGO team. -
#3346 by spupeng7 on 28 Mar, 2017 00:14
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WarpTech, if you do not accept discrete charges as the basic building blocks of matter then you have abandoned conservation. How then do you propose to calculate anything practical. Surely this is no more than theory for its own sake.
...
I said no such thing! In my model/theory, units of Coulombs and units of Newtons are invariant with transformation of the variable refractive index, K. Invariance wrt changes in a gravitational field is not the same as an "absolute" measuring scale. Measurements are still relative to what "we" define as K=1.
WarpTech, does this mean we are in agreement that charges are discrete and conserved? -
#3347 by Monomorphic on 28 Mar, 2017 00:42
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Latest configuration after sniffing around with the EMI probe. Much effort has been made to reduce the 12V power leads to minimum lengths. I have segregated the 12V and 5V systems so I can discriminate between the two (5V on top, 12V on bottom). I have also made generous use of ferrite beads.
User Star-Drive reminded me that the power leads should be twisted, so I have done that (not shown in this image).
The HD display screen has, once again, been moved off the torsional pendulum.
However, I have mounted it on the exterior support so I can easily access it via HDMI cable. The HDMI cable is unplugged during powered tests.
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#3348 by WarpTech on 28 Mar, 2017 02:10
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WarpTech, does this mean we are in agreement that charges are discrete and conserved?
Charge is conserved. It's the value that's relative. -
#3349 by FattyLumpkin on 28 Mar, 2017 03:46
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Re the Icarus Interstellar Starship Congress... Dr. Andreas Tziolas told me "Monterey CA, August 6-8, announcement this week!" I've mailed him back asking for more details. I'll give them out as soon as I hear something back. , Kevin
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#3350 by ThatOtherGuy on 28 Mar, 2017 13:13
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As discussed in the past (and as far as my memory serves) Monomorphic will run dummy load tests to check(characterize) possible displacement of the pendulum when all systems are running.
And that's for sure a good thing, characterizing the rig should be the main target as now, then, once he'll know how it behaves, he'll be able to run good tests; as for the "know how it behaves" I think that, while reducing the noise as much as possible is a good target, knowing it is a good thing too, since that may be used to correct the experimental results
even if he won't be able to totally remove the background noise, so, as I see it, measure, check, annotate, but then ... use that data to correct measurements and stop trying to hunt ghosts (not now, but there's a limit to what can be done to reduce noise)I think this is an important test regarding the impact of any involved devices. The later results with the frustum should be compared against the results of this tests.
I think that the more "variables" (cables, boards...) he removes from the playground the less noise he'll measure; also, and regarding the latest EM interferences, it would be a good idea imVHo measuring the fields using a regular antenna (a stylus or whatever) to check if those may come from some external sources and, in such a case, account for them... as long as he doesn't want to translate the whole testbed in the dungeons of a coalmine, by the way
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What about stripping off the shielding from some coax (an RG8 or the like) and using it to shield power cables ? Also, I think he should check grounding and ensure that the ground contacts are connected on one side only, to avoid those DARN "ground loops"
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#3351 by Monomorphic on 28 Mar, 2017 13:21
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System schematic and simple wiring diagram.
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#3352 by ThatOtherGuy on 28 Mar, 2017 14:16
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System schematic and simple wiring diagram.
Which parts are "inside the box" and which ones "outside the box" ? Sorry to be pedantic, but I think it's an important detail
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for example, if the control computer sits inside the "box" then it may be a possible source of noise, given that it appears to be connected to the testbed through USB, you may consider moving it outside and "remotizing" USB using (e.g.) "usb<->ethernet" dongles (or the like)
[edit 2]
Also, what about using a separate battery to power the computer ?
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#3353 by PotomacNeuron on 28 Mar, 2017 15:05
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System schematic and simple wiring diagram.
I suggest the wiring diagram to be more realistic than abstract. Lorentz force is an important factor in the measurement. Your grounding drawing is too abstract to be useful for assessing the Lorentz force. Specifically, instead of using ground symbols, better treat the grounding leads the same way as the power feeding leads. -
#3354 by Monomorphic on 28 Mar, 2017 15:50
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I suggest the wiring diagram to be more realistic than abstract. Lorentz force is an important factor in the measurement. Your grounding drawing is too abstract to be useful for assessing the Lorentz force. Specifically, instead of using ground symbols, better treat the grounding leads the same way as the power feeding leads.
That's not a problem. See if the attached makes more sense.
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#3355 by jmossman on 28 Mar, 2017 16:52
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I suggest the wiring diagram to be more realistic than abstract. Lorentz force is an important factor in the measurement. Your grounding drawing is too abstract to be useful for assessing the Lorentz force. Specifically, instead of using ground symbols, better treat the grounding leads the same way as the power feeding leads.
That's not a problem. See if the attached makes more sense.
Thank you for taking the time to generate the schematics! Any chance you could also show where the ferrite chokes (?inline beads?) were added? (and their specs?) Were there any additional decoupling caps added anywhere?
While I suspect you are rapidly approaching the point of diminishing returns on your EMI noise abatement, the community may be able to offer some specific recommendations if you have a particular EMI noise frequency/peak that you wish to attenuate. (For example, "preamp #1" power connections really want to be closer to the battery and the other amps, but well placed ferrite chokes/beads and sufficient low-impedance decoupling caps may be deemed good enough at these low power levels)
A general recommendation would be to utilize a faraday cage around the "noisy" components that you want to quieten (maybe a plastic box or ESD bag covered in copper foil tape that is grounded?). At RF frequencies this is tricky; even with custom PCBs and custom enclosures, attentuating RF leakage is really difficult and time consuming!
BTW, your attention to detail is inspiring! I look forward to viewing the data collected from your future experiments!
-James -
#3356 by ThatOtherGuy on 28 Mar, 2017 16:53
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All I can say is that when it comes to such frequencies, the devil is always in the details (ok last time I played with klystrons and cavities dates back to 30 or more years ago, but things didn't change so much)
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#3357 by spupeng7 on 29 Mar, 2017 00:48
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WarpTech, does this mean we are in agreement that charges are discrete and conserved?
Charge is conserved. It's the value that's relative.
Thanks WarpTech,
the concept of discrete charge (whose strength does not change unless observed across a time dilation) is fundamental to my notion of physical reality, so I will persevere with it. I guess the more disparate approaches to this emdrive thrust paradox, the faster we will find its resolution. Experimental results are what matter at this stage but we do need to bring self-consistent and credible theory to the table as well. Not that the lack of understanding of boundary layer flow ever stopped anyone from building airplanes.
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#3358 by Tcarey on 29 Mar, 2017 00:52
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I suggest the wiring diagram to be more realistic than abstract. Lorentz force is an important factor in the measurement. Your grounding drawing is too abstract to be useful for assessing the Lorentz force. Specifically, instead of using ground symbols, better treat the grounding leads the same way as the power feeding leads.
That's not a problem. See if the attached makes more sense.
I see three items plugged into that USB hub. The hub is plugged into the computer USB 2.0 port. That port is spec'd at 500 ma max output. The spec calls for the hub drawing 1 unit (100ma) of current allowing for the other devices to draw a total of 4 (100ma ea.) units between them.
If the hub is a powered hub then I do not see the power lines drawn.
If the hub is unpowered then a careful accounting of the power drawn by each device is in order.
USB ports frequently have circuitry to shut them down if the power draw is out of spec.
You keep making progress and I greatly appreciate your willingness to share your work with the board.
Good luck and may the force be found by you.
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#3359 by PotomacNeuron on 29 Mar, 2017 02:01
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I suggest the wiring diagram to be more realistic than abstract. Lorentz force is an important factor in the measurement. Your grounding drawing is too abstract to be useful for assessing the Lorentz force. Specifically, instead of using ground symbols, better treat the grounding leads the same way as the power feeding leads.
That's not a problem. See if the attached makes more sense.
This is much better than the last. furthermore, If anything is grounded to the beam, the grounding should be shown in the diagram. I remembered that the amplifier was grounded.
even if he won't be able to totally remove the background noise, so, as I see it, measure, check, annotate, but then ... use that data to correct measurements and stop trying to hunt ghosts (not now, but there's a limit to what can be done to reduce noise)