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#3080
by
demofsky
on 08 Mar, 2017 20:18
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impact is occurring inside different inertial frames.....It is this difference in a far diluted sense that the EMdrive employs to unbalance the normal equal and opposite reactions of radiation pressure by employing geometry and Q to segregate frames [breaching the isotropy inside the cavity.]
Speaking of inertial frames, would someone please explain how the speed of a photon would or would not vary between the different regions of, say, TE013 in, say, Monomorphic's fustrum as an example. FEKO, for instance, shows there are intense E Field regions within the fustrum. This must affect a photons (or N2 molecules) speed, inertia, etc..
The photons speeds inside the frustum are exactly equal to the speed of light for the medium inside the frustum. For a frustum that does not have any dielectric insert, for example Monomorphic's latest experiment in room pressure air, the speeds of the photons is the same everywhere inside the frustum equal to the speed of light in air: about 299,700 kilometers per second (186,200 miles per second) (about 90 kilometers per second (56 miles per second) slower than c).
This is what FEKO assumes everywhere throughout the frustum. Anybody that maintains that there is a different speed of the photons is in violent contradiction to the assumptions built-in in FEKO, which are Maxwells' equations.
Nothing in the geometry can make the speed of light change, the only thing that can make it change is the medium, for example using a dielectric insert as in NASA's experiments (and even in the case of light propagating in a material medium, one has to make a difference between the continuum approximation for the medium: leading to a different speed than in a vacuum, vs. a particle description of what actually happens to the photons inside the medium: individually, each of these waves travels at the speed of light in vacuum, not at the (slower) speed of light in the medium, yet when the waves are added up, they create only a wave that travels at the slower speed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewald%E2%80%93Oseen_extinction_theorem).
So what all of this seems to say is that either the E field is completely transparent to photons or the speed of a photon is invariant within the fustrum regardless of the photons energy levels? 
Hm.
Would all of this be simpler if the asymmetric modes of the fustrum acted as if they were different mediums within the fustrum? 
(And thanks for the explanations!!)
A photon within a cavity containing a homogeneous medium inside it (empty of any dielectric inserts) can only have a different frequency within it, not a different speed. The photon will have different energy and momentum, depending on its frequency. But the speed of the photon within a cavity containing a homogeneous medium inside it (empty of any dielectric inserts) must be constant throughout the homogeneous medium. (*)
The energy and momentum of a photon depend only on its frequency (ν) or inversely, its wavelength (λ):
Gravity, according to General Relativity pulls on things (including photons) proportional to a combination of their energy and momentum. Thus, gravity can pull on a photon, and as a result of this interaction with gravity the photon will change its frequency (and therefore also change its energy and momentum), as in the Pound-Rebka experiment:
In the image above you see the photons emitted from the top acquiring greater frequency as they get closer to the bottom, therefore the momentum and the energy of these photons also increase, due to gravity as they travel down.
But, again, the photons are traveling down at constant speed in this experiment. It is only their frequency, energy and momentum that increases as they travel down.
As to an explanation for a force on the EM Drive based exclusively on photons, and nothing else, I have personally yet to see a self-consistent theory.
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(*) and even for different mediums individually, each of these waves travels at the speed of light in vacuum, not at the (slower) speed of light in the medium, yet when the waves are added up, they create only a wave that travels at the slower speed of the medium compared to the vacuum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewald%E2%80%93Oseen_extinction_theorem)
Again thanks for this! So if we have strong E fields at one part of the fustrum with photons having higher levels of momentum, but not speed, and since momentum is
the quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity then we must have heavier photons at one end of the fustrum than the other. The interesting thing about this is that we have asymmetric H fields that extend beyond the walls of a fustrum (and asymmetric E fields within). You have to wonder what the relationship is between Mass and E and H fields and whether some mass is effectively being shed asymmetrically and not nicely extinguished.Furthermore, all this business with asymmetrical E and H fields really makes one wonder if we are creating a kind of (virtual?) meta-material. Hm.
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#3081
by
WarpTech
on 08 Mar, 2017 21:35
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snip...
But, again, the photons are traveling down at constant speed in this experiment. It is only their frequency, energy and momentum that increases as they travel down.
As to an explanation for a force on the EM Drive based exclusively on photons, and nothing else, I have personally yet to see a self-consistent theory.
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(*) and even for different mediums, individually, each of these waves travels at the speed of light in vacuum, not at the (slower) speed of light in the medium, yet when the waves are added up, they create only a wave that travels at the slower speed of the medium compared to the vacuum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewald%E2%80%93Oseen_extinction_theorem)
The problem with this experiment is the interpretation. If you are co-moving with the photon, it neither changes speed, absorbs or loses energy along the path. What is being demonstrated is the rate at which the clock ticks at the top of the tower, versus at the bottom of the tower. It really has nothing at all to do with the photons changing along the way.
Todd
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#3082
by
Josave
on 08 Mar, 2017 22:21
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Something I've thought about a few times. In the Pound-Rebka experiment we can see how the acceleration of a gravitational field results in the stretching of wavelengths. Is it possible that this stretching of wavelengths in the EmDrive is causing an acceleration field? Seems like a logical symmetry.
By Jove, I think you've got it !
"Stretching of wavelengths caused by the acceleration of a gravitational field implies an acceleration field caused by the stretching of wavelengths in an asymmetric cavity resonator."
Is this the physical meaning of the dispersion relation in the @notsosureofit Hypothesis, that is:
"Dispersion caused by an accelerating frame of reference implies an accelerating frame of reference caused by a dispersive cavity resonator."
Are the two concepts the same thing?
I think Notsosureofit hypothesis is based in the concept of “dispersive cavity resonator”. Ok, in a first approach, not only the speed c is constant in both ends of the cone, but the frequency itself is also constant all along the frustum, and this frequency is fixed by the input excitation source, to a value as close as possible to the resonance peak. So for a static frustum cavity to be dispersive, some sort of process should change the frequency (back and forth) while the radiation moves inside.
Clearly, accelerating the cavity or putting it inside a gravitational field, creates such a dispersion, or frequency change. But in my opinion, this frequency change is never created by the different diameters of the frustum, there is no stretching of wavelengths in an asymmetric cavity resonator; please correct me if I am wrong… In fact, according to upper Todd post, in the co-moving frame, also the frequency change disappears inside the cavity…
But, if by some means, let’s say a frequency modulation (a chirp signal) we can
mimic the exact variation of frequency that a g field or any acceleration would have done, this same acceleration should appear, due to momentary imbalance in both ends of the frustum. The key here is a non-equilibrium system. The EmDrive in this condition can only work for a moment, only while the frequency sweeps through two values, and Notsosureofit hypothesis should be valid:
“This is the acceleration (eigenvalue)
at which the dispersion of the tapered cavity is balanced out by the dispersion due to its acceleration”.
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#3083
by
spupeng7
on 09 Mar, 2017 00:21
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Many have lost betting against Einstein, and I don't relish chewing either rags or red-herrings, so I shall now concede the argument, flee, and return to lurking.
mwvp,
yes, many have. Sooner or later, and however, there will be a resolution between the revelations of GR and the mysteries of QM and it is a safe bet that one or the other will be somewhat modified in the process. A process that will necessarily include a little 'word salad'.
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#3084
by
Notsosureofit
on 09 Mar, 2017 01:25
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Only have a second tonight, glad to see the interest. The resonant cavity is quite a bit different than the "classical" black body cavity. There are no free photons at low mode numbers, that's why the effect (if it exists tapers off at high numbers). The resonant frequency is determined by the generation and collapse of the fields (or the oscillation of the wall charges if you use the particle model). The "doppler frequencies" used for this calculation are just a convenience interpretation of the dispersion of the cylindrical model. The 90 degree phase shifted frequencies are found at the half power points of the resonance curve (ala Turtle). I'll have to go back to my old notes to see where G falls out in this approximation.
Best Guys ! (and Gal)
Almost forgot, the entropy must increase on acceleration.
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#3085
by
ThatOtherGuy
on 09 Mar, 2017 09:38
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Again thanks for this! So if we have strong E fields at one part of the fustrum with photons having higher levels of momentum, but not speed, and since momentum is the quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity then we must have heavier photons at one end of the fustrum than the other.
The interesting thing about this is that we have asymmetric H fields that extend beyond the walls of a fustrum (and asymmetric E fields within). You have to wonder what the relationship is between Mass and E and H fields and whether some mass is effectively being shed asymmetrically and not nicely extinguished.
Furthermore, all this business with asymmetrical E and H fields really makes one wonder if we are creating a kind of (virtual?) meta-material. Hm.
Uhm... my poor brain is fizzing
are you saying that, for some reason one of the sides of the frustum becomes permeable to (some of the) photons while the other keeps reflecting them ? If so, then I wonder if by changing the wall shape or material the effect may be eliminated or improved
[edit]
Also, in such a case, it may be interesting to use a spectrum analyzer to check the RF fields at the sides (walls) of the frustum
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#3086
by
ThatOtherGuy
on 09 Mar, 2017 09:51
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#3087
by
Notsosureofit
on 09 Mar, 2017 14:29
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FYI:
Higher-Than-Ballistic Conduction of Viscous Electron Flows
Haoyu Guo, Ekin Ilseven, Gregory Falkovich, Leonid Levitov
(Submitted on 25 Jul 2016 (v1), last revised 16 Jan 2017 (this version, v2))
Strongly interacting electrons can move in a neatly coordinated way, reminiscent of the movement of viscous fluids. Here we show that in viscous flows interactions facilitate transport, allowing conductance to exceed the fundamental Landauer's ballistic limit Gball. The effect is particularly striking for the flow through a viscous point contact, a constriction exhibiting the quantum-mechanical ballistic transport at T=0 but governed by electron hydrodynamics at elevated temperatures. We develop a theory of the ballistic-to-viscous crossover using an approach based on quasi-hydrodynamic variables. Conductance is found to obey an additive relation G=Gball+Gvis, where the viscous contribution Gvis dominates over Gball in the hydrodynamic limit. We argue that superballistic, low-dissipation transport is a generic feature of viscous electronics.
Comments: 10pgs, 4fgs
Subjects: Mesoscale and Nanoscale Physics (cond-mat.mes-hall)
Cite as: arXiv:1607.07269 [cond-mat.mes-hall]
(or arXiv:1607.07269v2 [cond-mat.mes-hall] for this version)
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#3088
by
SeeShells
on 09 Mar, 2017 14:46
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Thought of this... no offense to anyone, although it makes me think.
My Best,
Shell
https://xkcd.com/
Well, since you cited xkcd, then https://xkcd.com/242/ seems appropriate 
Haha... that is spot on. . . me. There are no failures in the group building EMDrives just learning and getting better at what we do. It is truly how we roll. Into this exclusive little group of EMDrive design engineers we now have Paul March building his own lab.
These are exciting times.
My Very Best,
Shell
My Best,
Shell
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#3089
by
Monomorphic
on 09 Mar, 2017 18:04
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I condensed the batteries and placed them in an enclosure I found at the container store. I have an order of mumetal scheduled for delivery tomorrow, so then I will wrap the enclosure completely with the mumetal to mitigate any environmental magnetic and electromagnetic inference with the batteries. This way I do not need to worry about aligning batteries.
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#3090
by
WarpTech
on 09 Mar, 2017 18:18
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Something I've thought about a few times. In the Pound-Rebka experiment we can see how the acceleration of a gravitational field results in the stretching of wavelengths. Is it possible that this stretching of wavelengths in the EmDrive is causing an acceleration field? Seems like a logical symmetry.
By Jove, I think you've got it !
Actually, the wavelength of the light is not stretched at all. The photons and the EM field are unaffected. What has changed in the Pound-Rebka experiment is the length of the ruler (apparatus) used to measure the wavelength. In the case of the frustum, for this to be the case where "acceleration" is the cause, one must conclude that it is the frustum itself is contracting at one end, more than at the other end due to the asymmetrical energy storage. Which would be expected if the stored energy and damping is not a constant over the whole cavity, but varies as a function of the coordinates inside the frustum.
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#3091
by
Rodal
on 09 Mar, 2017 18:59
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Something I've thought about a few times. In the Pound-Rebka experiment we can see how the acceleration of a gravitational field results in the stretching of wavelengths. Is it possible that this stretching of wavelengths in the EmDrive is causing an acceleration field? Seems like a logical symmetry.
By Jove, I think you've got it !
Actually, the wavelength of the light is not stretched at all. The photons and the EM field are unaffected. What has changed in the Pound-Rebka experiment is the length of the ruler (apparatus) used to measure the wavelength. In the case of the frustum, for this to be the case where "acceleration" is the cause, one must conclude that it is the frustum itself is contracting at one end, more than at the other end due to the asymmetrical energy storage. Which would be expected if the stored energy and damping is not a constant over the whole cavity, but varies as a function of the coordinates inside the frustum.
That is an
intrinsic observer, general relativity interpretation, co-moving with the photons.
We solve everyday problems using extrinsic interpretations, where gravity is an external force, rather than a natural consequence of particles having to move on geodesic paths. I feel that the extrinsic interpretation of Pound-Rebka's experiment shown in the image submitted by X_Ray is more pedagogical and easier for people to relate to. But let's say for argument's sake that this problem needs to be solved using the intrinsic interpretation as you propose, the questions is:
what would be the best way to measure whether your theory is correct? The expected contraction of the frustum is so small that is beyond the ability to perform any measurements (since there is no ruler to be measured because the expected contraction is smaller than nanometers, and enters into the region where the solid is not well defined, apart from the fact that there are real macroscopic effects: thermal expansion, etc., that are humongous in comparison).
if you would use clocks, where would the clocks need to be positioned and measured and what would the necessary precision be?
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#3092
by
WarpTech
on 09 Mar, 2017 19:53
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Something I've thought about a few times. In the Pound-Rebka experiment we can see how the acceleration of a gravitational field results in the stretching of wavelengths. Is it possible that this stretching of wavelengths in the EmDrive is causing an acceleration field? Seems like a logical symmetry.
By Jove, I think you've got it !
Actually, the wavelength of the light is not stretched at all. The photons and the EM field are unaffected. What has changed in the Pound-Rebka experiment is the length of the ruler (apparatus) used to measure the wavelength. In the case of the frustum, for this to be the case where "acceleration" is the cause, one must conclude that it is the frustum itself is contracting at one end, more than at the other end due to the asymmetrical energy storage. Which would be expected if the stored energy and damping is not a constant over the whole cavity, but varies as a function of the coordinates inside the frustum.
That is an intrinsic observer, general relativity interpretation, co-moving with the photons.
We solve everyday problems using extrinsic interpretations, where gravity is an external force, rather than a natural consequence of particles having to move on geodesic paths. I feel that the extrinsic interpretation of Pound-Rebka's experiment shown in the image submitted by X_Ray is more pedagogical and easier for people to relate to. But let's say for argument's sake that this problem needs to be solved using the intrinsic interpretation as you propose, the questions is:
what would be the best way to measure whether your theory is correct? The expected contraction of the frustum is so small that is beyond the ability to perform any measurements (since there is no ruler to be measured because the expected contraction is smaller than nanometers, and enters into the region where the solid is not well defined, apart from the fact that there are real macroscopic effects: thermal expansion, etc., that are humongous in comparison).
if you would use clocks, where would the clocks need to be positioned and measured and what would the necessary precision be?
In this case, I am simply stating my opinion on how the Pound-Rebka experiment should be properly interpreted in GR. In the case of a frustum sitting upright on a table, this is identical to a 1g acceleration. I think the most accurate test that can be done would be to setup an Analyzer to actually measure the maximum Q value properly, and see how much it shifts, depending on orientation, in all 6 directions. If the frustum works as a transducer, i.e., motor mode and generator mode. This should reveal those changes IMO. If it doesn't we have nothing.
In terms of precision of clocks, it would require measuring the current oscillations or "H" field at 2.4 GHz, in the copper at each end and taking the difference in frequency. I don't know if that's even possible.
Todd
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#3093
by
demofsky
on 09 Mar, 2017 20:06
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I condensed the batteries and placed them in an enclosure I found at the container store. I have an order of mumetal scheduled for delivery tomorrow, so then I will wrap the enclosure completely with the mumetal to mitigate any environmental magnetic and electromagnetic inference with the batteries. This way I do not need to worry about aligning batteries.
Will heat be an issue?
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#3094
by
Monomorphic
on 09 Mar, 2017 20:20
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I condensed the batteries and placed them in an enclosure I found at the container store. I have an order of mumetal scheduled for delivery tomorrow, so then I will wrap the enclosure completely with the mumetal to mitigate any environmental magnetic and electromagnetic inference with the batteries. This way I do not need to worry about aligning batteries.
Will heat be an issue?
I don't think so. At full power i'm drawing around 2.0 amps from the 12V battery and less than 0.5 amps from the 5V battery. I also never noticed the batteries heating up when using thermal imaging.
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#3095
by
Rodal
on 09 Mar, 2017 20:55
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I condensed the batteries and placed them in an enclosure I found at the container store. I have an order of mumetal scheduled for delivery tomorrow, so then I will wrap the enclosure completely with the mumetal to mitigate any environmental magnetic and electromagnetic inference with the batteries. This way I do not need to worry about aligning batteries.
Will heat be an issue?
I don't think so. At full power i'm drawing around 2.0 amps from the 12V battery and less than 0.5 amps from the 5V battery. I also never noticed the batteries heating up when using thermal imaging.
So, the source of this
thermal noise :
is just the second
RF pre-amplifier and not at all the batteries?
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#3096
by
Monomorphic
on 09 Mar, 2017 21:22
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So, the source of this thermal noise :
is just the second RF pre-amplifier?
I was going to make a post about this, but hadn't gotten around to it. Based on further tests, I no longer think that noise is thermal in nature, but still related to the batteries. I performed a cold start test like I discussed and still observed the same noise. However, If I remove the 12V battery, the noise goes away completely. So what I thought was thermal noise is probably still the two batteries. When the trace is relatively flat, the influence of the two batteries is destructive, but over time it goes into resonance and remains that way until acted upon.
I hope to get more data tomorrow with the mumetal enclosure.
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#3097
by
WarpTech
on 09 Mar, 2017 21:57
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So, the source of this thermal noise :
is just the second RF pre-amplifier?
I was going to make a post about this, but hadn't gotten around to it. Based on further tests, I no longer think that noise is thermal in nature, but still related to the batteries. I performed a cold start test like I discussed and still observed the same noise. However, If I remove the 12V battery, the noise goes away completely. So what I thought was thermal noise is probably still the two batteries. When the trace is relatively flat, the influence of the two batteries is destructive, but over time it goes into resonance and remains that way until acted upon.
I hope to get more data tomorrow with the mumetal enclosure.
Try adding a 1uF or 2uF Polypropylene Film capacitor across the 12V battery. The conductivity of the battery is a variable due to the electrolytic reaction, so the current flow is not a smooth, continuous flow. Adding the Low Z capacitor across the output may filter out that noise completely, transferring more of the load to the capacitor, allowing the battery to discharge more smoothly.
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#3098
by
Monomorphic
on 10 Mar, 2017 12:08
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Try adding a 1uF or 2uF Polypropylene Film capacitor across the 12V battery. The conductivity of the battery is a variable due to the electrolytic reaction, so the current flow is not a smooth, continuous flow. Adding the Low Z capacitor across the output may filter out that noise completely, transferring more of the load to the capacitor, allowing the battery to discharge more smoothly.
If the mumetal is not effective, I will give this a try. Simple enough. Thanks!
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#3099
by
ThatOtherGuy
on 10 Mar, 2017 13:01
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Try adding a 1uF or 2uF Polypropylene Film capacitor across the 12V battery. The conductivity of the battery is a variable due to the electrolytic reaction, so the current flow is not a smooth, continuous flow. Adding the Low Z capacitor across the output may filter out that noise completely, transferring more of the load to the capacitor, allowing the battery to discharge more smoothly.
If the mumetal is not effective, I will give this a try. Simple enough. Thanks!
Uhm... have you tried using coax to feed battery power to the circuits ?
(And thanks for the explanations!!)
