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#1980 by LowerAtmosphere on 21 Jan, 2017 17:30
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It is tempting but in reality there is no need for QV, Dark Energy or exotic effects to explain the thrust. Following Desiato-Rodal's classical theory combined with basic optomechanics, it should work following the conversation so far.
I have been thinking about the design and have developed another concept which is attached. Let me know what you think.
Referenced urls:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2016/feb/26/surreal-behaviour-spotted-in-photon-experiment
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0008622313010695
http://www.radioeng.cz/fulltexts/2015/15_03_0661_0669.pdf
www.physics.hmc.edu/~saeta/courses/p111/uploads/Y2011/HSChapter4.pdf
http://xlab.me.berkeley.edu/pdf/027.pdf
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.2843
P.S. Amazing work has been done. This thread has been an historic turning point. In case people haven't realized, higher order and secondary effects were basically proven to be present due to the chaotic pattern in the long cone sims!!! Again, this is a huge leap forward since it essentially invalidates Egan's analysis. Egan did not consider secondary effects which happen because the EM drive is not a closed or steady-state system. FEKO and Egan both shared equations, just the conclusions which can be drawn from each appear to be vastly different. Clearly there is a knowledge gap which exists at the cut off in an asymmetric cavity which Dr. Rodal has valiantly tried to fill before. Phd students take note. I would recommend more work on increasing Q and changing the design to increase the potential between the upper and lower cavity. Also, I am very concerned that the theory is incorrect for one simple practical reason: it predicts thrust for symmetric cavities with asymmetric internal fields. Meberbs made some great points earlier along these lines. Surely somebody would have noticed this by now after 100+ years of experimentation?
Best Regards,
LA
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#1981 by rfmwguy on 21 Jan, 2017 17:43
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It is tempting but in reality there is no need for QV, Dark Energy or exotic effects to explain the thrust. Following Desiato-Rodal's classical theory combined with basic optomechanics, it should work following the conversation so far.
Egan did not consider secondary effects which happen because the EM drive is not a closed or steady-state system.
I have been thinking about the design and have developed another concept which is attached. Let me know what you think.
Referenced urls:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2016/feb/26/surreal-behaviour-spotted-in-photon-experiment
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0008622313010695
http://www.radioeng.cz/fulltexts/2015/15_03_0661_0669.pdf
www.physics.hmc.edu/~saeta/courses/p111/uploads/Y2011/HSChapter4.pdf
http://xlab.me.berkeley.edu/pdf/027.pdf
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.2843
P.S. Amazing work has been done. This thread has been an historic turning point. In case people haven't realized, higher order and secondary effects were basically proven to be present due to the chaotic pattern in the long cone sims!!! Again, this is a huge leap forward since it essentially invalidates Egan's analysis. Egan did not consider secondary effects which happen because the EM drive is not a closed or steady-state system. FEKO and Egan both shared equations, just the conclusions which can be drawn from each appear to be vastly different. Clearly there is a knowledge gap which exists at the cut off in an asymmetric cavity which Dr. Rodal has valiantly tried to fill before. Phd students take note. I would recommend more work on increasing Q and changing the design to increase the potential between the upper and lower cavity. Also, I am very concerned that the theory is incorrect for one simple practical reason: it predicts thrust for symmetric cavities with asymmetric internal fields. Meberbs made some great points earlier along these lines. Surely somebody would have noticed this by now after 100+ years of experimentation?
Best Regards,
LA
Egan did not consider secondary effects which happen because the EM drive is not a closed or steady-state system.
Egan did not consider secondary effects which happen because the EM drive is not a closed or steady-state system.
Sorry, I could not resist repeating my long-held belief. IOW, goodbye to a closed system mentality. -
#1982 by X_RaY on 21 Jan, 2017 18:16
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It is tempting but in reality there is no need for QV, Dark Energy or exotic effects to explain the thrust. Following Desiato-Rodal's classical theory combined with basic optomechanics, it should work following the conversation so far.
I have been thinking about the design and have developed another concept which is attached. Let me know what you think.
Referenced urls:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2016/feb/26/surreal-behaviour-spotted-in-photon-experiment
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0008622313010695
http://www.radioeng.cz/fulltexts/2015/15_03_0661_0669.pdf
www.physics.hmc.edu/~saeta/courses/p111/uploads/Y2011/HSChapter4.pdf
http://xlab.me.berkeley.edu/pdf/027.pdf
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.2843
P.S. Amazing work has been done. This thread has been an historic turning point. In case people haven't realized, higher order and secondary effects were basically proven to be present due to the chaotic pattern in the long cone sims!!! Again, this is a huge leap forward since it essentially invalidates Egan's analysis. Egan did not consider secondary effects which happen because the EM drive is not a closed or steady-state system. FEKO and Egan both shared equations, just the conclusions which can be drawn from each appear to be vastly different. Clearly there is a knowledge gap which exists at the cut off in an asymmetric cavity which Dr. Rodal has valiantly tried to fill before. Phd students take note. I would recommend more work on increasing Q and changing the design to increase the potential between the upper and lower cavity. Also, I am very concerned that the theory is incorrect for one simple practical reason: it predicts thrust for symmetric cavities with asymmetric internal fields. Meberbs made some great points earlier along these lines. Surely somebody would have noticed this by now after 100+ years of experimentation?
Best Regards,
LA
To me it seems that the "chaotic pattern" of the illustration of the average Poynting-Vector(vector components summarized over a full 2π cycle) is an artefact of the simulation because of the finite mesh density and the autoscaled values.
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#1983 by sanman on 21 Jan, 2017 18:30
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I was just wondering - if Squeezed Light can be possible, can Stretched Light also be possible? Or is that what they call Amplitude Squeezed Light?
Regardless of how it's accomplished, we can all see what the converse situation would look like - a lower signal-to-noise ratio that raises the background noise. Shall we call it excitation of the Vacuum Fluctuations?
Consider that if those background fluctuations are what you're trying to push off of, then your Action-Reaction could benefit from a more vigorously fluctuating (hotter?) Vacuum.
In my model, that would be "warp drive", or K < 1, c/K > c.
I look at it this way. The QED Zero Point Field, (ZPF) is the lowest allowed energy state for an oscillator in a potential. So the oscillators that make up matter (atoms) do not naturally drop below this minimum energy state. The atoms are driven by the ZPF of the vacuum to be in equilibrium with it. The presence and interaction with external matter causes damping, or a loss of power from the oscillator-vacuum system. The particle falls, looking for equilibrium in an asymmetrical environment. In other words, the symmetry is broken. Gravity has a symmetry, just as other forces in the SM have a symmetry. They exist only when the symmetry is broken.
The frustrum is an (asymmetric) resonant cavity with photons supposedly bouncing back and forth - but couldn't this "resonant" bouncing really amount to a delocalization?
Isn't that exactly how they refer to electron-delocalization in SP2 aromatic carbon -- "resonance" states?
If QED cavity resonance really does amount to delocalization, then perhaps its more diffuse nature could lead to greater coupling - analogous to the way the more diffuse corona-discharge can have greater coupling with a fuel-air mixture as compared to the sharper arc-discharge. So, to me, that sounds like the possible means of augmenting Action-Reaction by a Photon Rocket.
But the idea of "stretched light" (Amplitude-Squeezed Light?) and a correspondingly "smeared out" photon seems to likewise be another way of making light more diffuse at the individual photon level, which perhaps could also achieve better coupling with the Vacuum.
So which way is better? Should they both be tried together, for possible enhanced results?
Then there is the idea of Gamma-Gamma photon coupling at higher energies (shorter wavelengths) - so when your energy is high enough, you're no longer as bosonic and you're more interactive.
Could there be possible optimization interplay between:
1) the choice of frustrum dimensions and material
2) the choice of light frequency to pump the cavity with
3) the level of LightSqueezing applied to the photons -
#1984 by meberbs on 21 Jan, 2017 18:37
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Sorry, I could not resist repeating my long-held belief. IOW, goodbye to a closed system mentality.
Emphasis mine.
I would appreciate it if you could share in what way you think the em-drive is not closed or steady state.
Note that for a system such as the emDrive, steady state under the definition I am familiar with includes uniform oscillations. Non steady state would mean the cycles do not exactly repeat. -
#1985 by WarpTech on 21 Jan, 2017 18:51
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Going back to Mulletron's point, and now trying to understand your theory.Comments from Lawrence Krauss about EMdrive, the QV, NASA and warp drive at 1:29:00. Not sure where he got his info because I don't remember anyone saying that the EMdrive is a way to "mine the vacuum" for energy. Probably just another rumor he heard...
I think that Krauss is answering the question in a way that the audience can readily understand the issues involved in claiming that the EM Drive can be propelled using the Quantum Vacuum, as energy and momentum are tied together in General Relativity. I think that Krauss is answering that the QV is the zero point energy field, and therefore there is nothing one can do altering it, mutating it or degrading it. Actually Dr. White agrees with what Krauss states, under Einstein's definition of the zero point field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy). Notice that the EM Drive has made it now into Wikipedia's article on the Zero Point Energy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy#Space_Travel_and_Gravitational_Shielding). Dr. White and Paul March answer that what they are proposing is that the QV is mutable and degradable and that instead of a zero point state, that there are a multitude of states. My recollection (Paul correct me if my memory is wrong) that actually Paul stated that it would not be inconceivable to mine the QV for energy, under Dr. White's proposal (again, since momentum and energy are tied together in General Relativity).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRNtcj6YRuc?t=1h29m
Multiple states of energy for the QV are theoretically possible in a Multiverse (a multiverse is contemplated by serious physicists as part of string theory) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse). I think that Krauss would answer Paul by stating that he (Krauss) thinks that it is impossible for something (particularly something involving mundane temperatures and energy as the EM Drive experiments, that some people are even building in their own home) to access any of the other Multiverse levels (which would mean interacting with other branes in the Multiverse, at room temperature with mundane levels of energy). This is where the discrepancy exists between the overwhelming majority of physicists (including Krauss) and what Dr. White has proposed.
Basically, Krauss is addressing all the highly speculative theories proposing to use the QV for space travel, that are summarized in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy#Space_Travel_and_Gravitational_Shielding , and this includes the theory of Puthoff and some of his collaborators, as well as the different proposal of Dr. White.
What is commonly neglected is, the EM ZPF of the QV may not be degradable, but the QV that we interact with is not ONLY the ZPF. It is the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.
Under your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
Thanks in advance if you can clarify this point in your theory
Yes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power. Anything that uses gravity to generate electricity, or gaining momentum such as a gravitational assist maneuver. These things exploit the difference in the vacuum energy, as it interacts with matter, at different altitudes in a gravitational field, per both Milonni's and Puthoff's work on Quantum Ground States.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40509-015-0055-5
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#1986 by Rodal on 21 Jan, 2017 20:42
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It is always a good thing to attempt a summary of present knowledge, albeit at the risk of one having to interpret the theories of others, as tentative summaries, even of theories in progress, helps in understanding what explanations are given for the EM Drive claims....
Going back to Mulletron's point, and now trying to understand your theory.
Under your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
Thanks in advance if you can clarify this point in your theory
Yes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power. Anything that uses gravity to generate electricity, or gaining momentum such as a gravitational assist maneuver. These things exploit the difference in the vacuum energy, as it interacts with matter, at different altitudes in a gravitational field, per both Milonni's and Puthoff's work on Quantum Ground States.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40509-015-0055-5
As a provisional summary, on Mulletron's point about "mining energy", concerning people supporting explanations for the EM Drive, this is my recollection and understanding:
EM Drive theory Can the EM Drive effect be used for harvesting any energy?
McCulloch YES
Desiato(Warptech) YES
White/March YES ?
Notsosureofit No (but not so sure of it)
Shawyer No
Comments, additions, and editing corrections to my recollection and understanding of the above, are appreciated -
#1987 by rfmwguy on 21 Jan, 2017 20:55
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In viewing H Field spikes from a kitchen microwave and a tightly sealed 1701A cavity (and I mean TIGHTLY RF sealed), it's obvious H fields spray all over the place, so that observation alone makes it an open system.Sorry, I could not resist repeating my long-held belief. IOW, goodbye to a closed system mentality.
Emphasis mine.
I would appreciate it if you could share in what way you think the em-drive is not closed or steady state.
Note that for a system such as the emDrive, steady state under the definition I am familiar with includes uniform oscillations. Non steady state would mean the cycles do not exactly repeat.
Too bad Egan missed this. It only would have taken a simple EMF meter and his counter-top microwave oven to make him realize it was not a closed system as he tried to describe it. The closed system radiation pressure argument set back development years IMO...all from an unpublished paper referred to countless times here and on other forums as some sort of gospel. It was not. -
#1988 by X_RaY on 21 Jan, 2017 20:55
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to harvest energy from the ZPF it's necessary to produce a kind of even lower (virtual avg. however) energy state as in the case of the casimir force*?!
It is always a good thing to attempt a summary of present knowledge, albeit at the risk of having to interpret the theories of others....
Going back to Mulletron's point, and now trying to understand your theory.
Under your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
Thanks in advance if you can clarify this point in your theory
Yes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power. Anything that uses gravity to generate electricity, or gaining momentum such as a gravitational assist maneuver. These things exploit the difference in the vacuum energy, as it interacts with matter, at different altitudes in a gravitational field, per both Milonni's and Puthoff's work on Quantum Ground States.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40509-015-0055-5
As a provisional summary, on Mulletron's point, concerning people supporting explanations for the EM Drive, this is my recollection and understanding:
EM Drive theory Can the EM Drive effect be used for harvesting energy?
McCulloch YES
Desiato(Warptech) YES
White/March YES ?
Notsosureofit No (but not so sure of it)
Shawyer No
Comments, additions, and editing corrections to my recollection and understanding of the above, are appreciated
* Where only some of all possible frequencies are allowed because of the given space between the conductive plates and the related boundary conditions for the EM- field.
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#1989 by Rodal on 21 Jan, 2017 20:59
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..Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to harvest energy from the ZPF it's necessary to produce a kind of even lower (virtual avg.) energy state as in the case of the casimir force?!
Yes, that is the classical understanding, as harvesting energy from a given energy state implies degrading its present energy state to a lower energy state. -
#1990 by X_RaY on 21 Jan, 2017 21:26
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In other words: A asymmetric spatial gradient of the energy state is needed to explain any thrust force based on the ZPF!..Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to harvest energy from the ZPF it's necessary to produce a kind of even lower (virtual avg.) energy state as in the case of the casimir force?!
Yes, that is the classical understanding, as harvesting energy from a given energy state implies degrading its present energy state to a lower energy state.
I think that's a central points when dealing with stuff like that.
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#1991 by Rodal on 21 Jan, 2017 22:07
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Well, it would not be the ZPF (zero point energy field) anymore
In other words: A asymmetric spatial gradient of the energy state is needed to explain any thrust force based on the ZPF!..Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to harvest energy from the ZPF it's necessary to produce a kind of even lower (virtual avg.) energy state as in the case of the casimir force?!
Yes, that is the classical understanding, as harvesting energy from a given energy state implies degrading its present energy state to a lower energy state. I think that's a central points when dealing with stuff like that.
, that's what Krauss was complaining about in the video.
It would be the DQVF (Degradable Quantum Vacuum Field) or the MQVF (Mutable Quantum Vacuum Field) or (QGS) Quantum Ground States, which are very speculative. -
#1992 by WarpTech on 21 Jan, 2017 23:41
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It is always a good thing to attempt a summary of present knowledge, albeit at the risk of one having to interpret the theories of others, as tentative summaries, even of theories in progress, helps in understanding what explanations are given for the EM Drive claims....
Going back to Mulletron's point, and now trying to understand your theory.
Under your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
Thanks in advance if you can clarify this point in your theory
Yes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power. Anything that uses gravity to generate electricity, or gaining momentum such as a gravitational assist maneuver. These things exploit the difference in the vacuum energy, as it interacts with matter, at different altitudes in a gravitational field, per both Milonni's and Puthoff's work on Quantum Ground States.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40509-015-0055-5
As a provisional summary, on Mulletron's point about "mining energy", concerning people supporting explanations for the EM Drive, this is my recollection and understanding:
EM Drive theory Can the EM Drive effect be used for harvesting any energy?
McCulloch YES
Desiato(Warptech) YES
White/March YES ?
Notsosureofit No (but not so sure of it)
Shawyer No
Comments, additions, and editing corrections to my recollection and understanding of the above, are appreciated
It seems you misunderstood me! Hydro-electric power and a gravity assist maneuver require an "external" gravitational field that creates an asymmetrical vacuum gradient from which we can extract energy. In the case of the EmDrive however, it is the energy "we put into the cavity" that creates a gradient. It's not harvesting anything from the vacuum. So for me, this should say "NO". -
#1993 by sanman on 22 Jan, 2017 00:01
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to harvest energy from the ZPF it's necessary to produce a kind of even lower (virtual avg. however) energy state as in the case of the casimir force*?!
* Where only some of all possible frequencies are allowed because of the given space between the conductive plates and the related boundary conditions for the EM- field.
Why shouldn't it be more of a case that EMdrive could leech energy off some other accelerative force/thrust pushing through the Vacuum/ZPE field?
(ie.EMdrive could leech off Action-Reaction caused by something else)
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#1994 by Rodal on 22 Jan, 2017 00:24
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Your answer to my question
It is always a good thing to attempt a summary of present knowledge, albeit at the risk of one having to interpret the theories of others, as tentative summaries, even of theories in progress, helps in understanding what explanations are given for the EM Drive claims....
Going back to Mulletron's point, and now trying to understand your theory.
Under your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
Thanks in advance if you can clarify this point in your theory
Yes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power. Anything that uses gravity to generate electricity, or gaining momentum such as a gravitational assist maneuver. These things exploit the difference in the vacuum energy, as it interacts with matter, at different altitudes in a gravitational field, per both Milonni's and Puthoff's work on Quantum Ground States.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40509-015-0055-5
As a provisional summary, on Mulletron's point about "mining energy", concerning people supporting explanations for the EM Drive, this is my recollection and understanding:
EM Drive theory Can the EM Drive effect be used for harvesting any energy?
McCulloch YES
Desiato(Warptech) YES
White/March YES ?
Notsosureofit No (but not so sure of it)
Shawyer No
Comments, additions, and editing corrections to my recollection and understanding of the above, are appreciated
It seems you misunderstood me! Hydro-electric power and a gravity assist maneuver require an "external" gravitational field that creates an asymmetrical vacuum gradient from which we can extract energy. In the case of the EmDrive however, it is the energy "we put into the cavity" that creates a gradient. It's not harvesting anything from the vacuum. So for me, this should say "NO".Quote from: RodalUnder your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
was:Quote from: WarptechYes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power.
I understand now that you must have meant to type No, instead of yes in your answer. (*)
EM Drive theory Can the EM Drive effect be used for harvesting any energy?
McCulloch YES
Desiato(Warptech) NO
White/March YES ?
Notsosureofit No (but not so sure of it)
Shawyer No
Comments, additions, and editing corrections to my recollection and understanding of the above, are appreciated
_____________
(*) When does a yes mean a no ? http://thinkers50.com/blog/when-does-yes-mean-no/
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#1995 by Tcarey on 22 Jan, 2017 05:29
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In viewing H Field spikes from a kitchen microwave and a tightly sealed 1701A cavity (and I mean TIGHTLY RF sealed), it's obvious H fields spray all over the place, so that observation alone makes it an open system.
Too bad Egan missed this. It only would have taken a simple EMF meter and his counter-top microwave oven to make him realize it was not a closed system as he tried to describe it. The closed system radiation pressure argument set back development years IMO...all from an unpublished paper referred to countless times here and on other forums as some sort of gospel. It was not.
In response to earlier posts you have made on this point, some others have made the point that the power supply for most microwave oven is basically unfiltered rectified AC with the resulting 60 and 120 Hz modulation. As I understood the responses they were suggesting that the 60 Hz component would in fact penetrate the thickness of your frustum walls and therefore account for the H field you measured. While that would indeed make the EM drive an open system in your parlance I don't understand how that is relevant in terms of the 2.45 GHz drive that is held responsible for the EM drive effect. If you have addressed this in an earlier post I apologize for having missed it.
Have you have measured the frequency of the H field that you detected? -
#1996 by WarpTech on 22 Jan, 2017 05:34
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...
Your answer to my questionQuote from: RodalUnder your theory, would it be possible, in principle, to "mine the vacuum" for energy, where the vacuum stands for what you call <<the superposition of all the EM fields in the universe that have a probability to exist at that location. THIS field is degradable.>> ?
was:Quote from: WarptechYes. It's called Hyrdo-electric power.
I understand now that you must have meant to type No, instead of yes in your answer. (*)
...
_____________
(*) When does a yes mean a no ? http://thinkers50.com/blog/when-does-yes-mean-no/
Sorry, I'm an expert at stating the obvious and a master of sarcasm.
That's what I get from years of laughing to George Carlin. --“People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.”
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#1997 by bprager on 22 Jan, 2017 11:55
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I thought this was an interesting article here: Traffic jam in empty space. Question to the experts: Does that support Dr. White's assumption of a non-immutable vacuum?
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#1998 by LowerAtmosphere on 22 Jan, 2017 12:06
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To me it seems that the "chaotic pattern" of the illustration of the average Poynting-Vector(vector components summarized over a full 2π cycle) is an artefact of the simulation because of the finite mesh density and the autoscaled values.
So perhaps a better simulation is needed? Perhaps also one which incorporates sidewall forces and the laws governing the electrical distribution and interactions between sidewall and internal cavity. In other words one which does not include the assumption that no net work is being done by the constraint force for the Lagrangian. The interpretation of the nature of the wall as in whether it is an oscillatory system (net work possible) versus static is key and something which Mach identified and Rodal attempted to expand upon. It can be argued that it is a very dangerous assumption that the copper skin perpendicular to the modal peaks does not carry current in closed loops (magnetic dipoles). There has been much work done on the nature of such closed metallic loops and the physics involved*, also including evanescent waves again, are non-intuitive and not factored into the sim, as far as I know. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7265/full/nature08293.html
It is important to consider the causality of the system. The internal B fields affect the walls, but the resulting potential along the length axis affects the internal fields and this has been discussed at length. Right now as far as I understand, the sims only consider causality in one direction.
There should not be any reasonable limitations to computing power available given the institutional level of access which many participants enjoy.
Hoping this makes sense as to why I partially distrust the simulations and your explanation for the chaotic patterns.
*Remember Floquet time crystals, Quantum topological insulators and so on. This research and the fact that we observe this on the macro scale in metallic/pseudo-metallic lattices is important for understanding why Maxwell has great explanatory power for regular cavities but not for cavities such as an asymmetric cone with asymmetric internal fields. Hell this is Warptech's entire point! Almost as though you could win a Nobel for finding this out. -
#1999 by rfmwguy on 22 Jan, 2017 12:07
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No, I have been suggesting a someone use a B or H field sensor with sub nanosecond measurement recording. Thus is not a common piece of test equipment...I've checked into it. I know my meter is low frequency but regardless, the shielded aluminum box of the common microwave allows magnetic energy to escape at low frequencies and don't know a mechanism where it would begin to shield at higher frequencies. IOW, I don't think a aluminum or copper act as a low pass magnetic filter. If you have something to the contrary, please share.
In viewing H Field spikes from a kitchen microwave and a tightly sealed 1701A cavity (and I mean TIGHTLY RF sealed), it's obvious H fields spray all over the place, so that observation alone makes it an open system.
Too bad Egan missed this. It only would have taken a simple EMF meter and his counter-top microwave oven to make him realize it was not a closed system as he tried to describe it. The closed system radiation pressure argument set back development years IMO...all from an unpublished paper referred to countless times here and on other forums as some sort of gospel. It was not.
In response to earlier posts you have made on this point, some others have made the point that the power supply for most microwave oven is basically unfiltered rectified AC with the resulting 60 and 120 Hz modulation. As I understood the responses they were suggesting that the 60 Hz component would in fact penetrate the thickness of your frustum walls and therefore account for the H field you measured. While that would indeed make the EM drive an open system in your parlance I don't understand how that is relevant in terms of the 2.45 GHz drive that is held responsible for the EM drive effect. If you have addressed this in an earlier post I apologize for having missed it.
Have you have measured the frequency of the H field that you detected?
I think that's a central points when dealing with stuff like that.
, that's what Krauss was complaining about in the video.
That's what I get from years of laughing to George Carlin. --“People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.”