Author Topic: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal  (Read 42821 times)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #120 on: 01/09/2018 07:04 PM »
Quote
Interesting #Prometheus / #Callisto Ariane Next video via @CNES and blackbear studio @DLR_en

https://twitter.com/dutchspace/status/950798523355815936

Video attached.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #121 on: 01/10/2018 05:50 PM »
Quote
Interesting #Prometheus / #Callisto Ariane Next video via @CNES and blackbear studio @DLR_en

https://twitter.com/dutchspace/status/950798523355815936

Video attached.
Watched it.

Not worth the download. Nothing new added.  :(

TBH I'm underwhelmed by Prometheus.  It looks like an engine that could have been built any time within the last 30-40 years.

It's a GG cycle Methalox engine with a shared turbine drive. Quite a  lot of it will be 3d printed. It's got quite a good throttling range compared to other engines produced in Europe (Europe, not parts of the FSU).

But.

No variable Isp to maximize payload to orbit (which is what this is all about).
No gas chamber tapoff to eliminate a GG yet still have "full flow"
No cutting edge chamber pressure or nozzle design to increase Isp.

And what are these features that will promote easy and fast reuse? So far it looks the ECU is going to do most of the work. Will they still use ball and roller bearings for it?

As others have noted CALLISTO is not a micro launcher. It's a test vehicle. The correct analogy would be to Grasshopper.

I'll note that with SX booster recovery (and reuse) as a fact all other recovery and reuse strategies hare much riskier, simply because none of them have ever been actually tried, let alone succeeded.

This clean sheet approach also means there is no opportunity to do any early testing on Ariane5, and probably none on A6, although it may not be too late to design in the hooks for recovery testing (like space and connections for an OBC and it's power, given 1st stages typically lose 1Kg of payload for 13Kg of 1st stage mass, meaning you could put the hooks in place without loosing any major final payload).
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Online Alpha_Centauri

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #122 on: 01/10/2018 06:07 PM »
It's designed to be ridiculously cheap, not state of the art.

Offline AncientU

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #123 on: 01/10/2018 06:23 PM »
...

TBH I'm underwhelmed by Prometheus.  It looks like an engine that could have been built any time within the last 30-40 years.

It's a GG cycle Methalox engine with a shared turbine drive. Quite a  lot of it will be 3d printed. It's got quite a good throttling range compared to other engines produced in Europe (Europe, not parts of the FSU).

...

Sounds perfect for a low cost reusable engine along the lines of Merlin (but no coke build-up).  Additive manufacturing was not available for the last 30-40 years -- and this is a huge contributor to cost efficiency and thrust-to-weight.  Rocket engine technology-wise, yes, it could have been made 40 years ago... but wasn't, and neither was Merlin. 

If you're still judging engines on 'performance' alone -- see Merlin.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2018 06:25 PM by AncientU »
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #124 on: 01/11/2018 09:16 AM »
Sounds perfect for a low cost reusable engine along the lines of Merlin (but no coke build-up).
The simple answer to avoiding coke build up (and not having to re-size your turbo pump if you have to change fuels) is to use LOX cooling, demonstrated by NASA  around 1991 in a 40 k lb pressure fed test engine they use. Rotary Rocket also did work in this area and found no showstoppers. IOW 3 decades ago.
Quote from: AncientU

 Additive manufacturing was not available for the last 30-40 years -- and this is a huge contributor to cost efficiency and thrust-to-weight.
It's probably been available only for the last 20 years.

Before that you'd be looking at phote-etching/diffusion bonding, vacuum melting/casting with lost wax/foam and ceramic bag dross filtering if necessary, or electroforming or EDM/ECM as "rapid prototyping" approaches.

Quote from: AncientU

  Rocket engine technology-wise, yes, it could have been made 40 years ago... but wasn't, and neither was Merlin. 
True.
Quote from: AncientU
If you're still judging engines on 'performance' alone -- see Merlin.
I'd have ignored RP1 and selected the best available hydrocarbon that was not LH2. IIRC they are all pretty similar except for Propyne (Old name Methyl Acetylene) , which has a strained bond that gives it several seconds better Isp. AFAIk on this scale all reasonable propellants (IE not NTO and Hydrazines) have cost levels "in the noise"  and handling restrictions no worse than LOX, which is the obvious "performance" oxidizer in any case (CTF fails for the same reason as NTO and the Hydrazines).
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline calapine

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #125 on: 01/25/2018 07:24 PM »
Some interesting Callisto news. Article French, my summary below:
Callisto, un démonstrateur de lanceur réutilisable à l'horizon 2020


Assemly in Japan(sic!) and features a Japanese LH2/LOX engine.

Height: 13m
Diameter: 1,1m
Take-off weight: 3,6 tons

Germany: Landing gear, control surfaces,
France: LH2 tank
Japan: Engine, LOX tank

Flights to 35km altitude with Mach 6, flight profile similar to a launcher first stage.


And now we know there will be a second demonstrator: Themis

Planned for 2025
Mass and size 10x of Callisto.
Propulsion will be 1 to 3 Prometheus engines.
Will either result in an evolved Ariane 6 or ArianeNext.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2018 07:29 PM by calapine »

Offline AncientU

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #126 on: 01/25/2018 07:50 PM »
Are they making several Callisto vehicles?

Why the delay to 2025 for Themis... seems like it could follow Callisto into testing within 1-2 years?
(This sounds like a very interesting demo!!!  Should get on with it.)
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Offline calapine

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #127 on: 01/25/2018 08:02 PM »
Are they making several Callisto vehicles?

Why the delay to 2025 for Themis... seems like it could follow Callisto into testing within 1-2 years?
(This sounds like a very interesting demo!!!  Should get on with it.)

My guess is that the 2025 date is a placeholder and contingent on the development speed of Prometheus. Without that engine no Themis.

Offline Ictogan

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #128 on: 01/25/2018 08:03 PM »
And now we know there will be a second demonstrator: Themis

Planned for 2025
Mass and size 10x of Callisto.
That's... not really ambitious at all. 7 years from now they want to have a demonstrator that is still only ~1/8th of the mass of an Ariane 5 core. I guess we won't see a reusable launch vehicle from europe before the 2030s  :(.

Offline AncientU

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #129 on: 01/26/2018 12:51 PM »
Are they making several Callisto vehicles?

Why the delay to 2025 for Themis... seems like it could follow Callisto into testing within 1-2 years?
(This sounds like a very interesting demo!!!  Should get on with it.)

My guess is that the 2025 date is a placeholder and contingent on the development speed of Prometheus. Without that engine no Themis.

Prometheus is supposed to be fired in 2020*.  Doesn't take 5 years to go from full engine firing to flight ready, especially for a simple engine for a demo rocket.  Cannot do everything in series... trust that the engine will be built and will perform approximately as designed.  Build the demo booster in parallel.  Optimize on the production scale booster.

* Shouldn't take until 2020 to field this engine, either.
« Last Edit: 01/26/2018 12:53 PM by AncientU »
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Offline woods170

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #130 on: 03/12/2018 01:10 PM »
Artist impressions of (variants of) Callisto and Prometheus can be found here:

http://cnes.photonpro.net/cnes/category/996

Offline Jester

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #131 on: 04/03/2018 07:42 PM »
https://spacegate.cnes.fr/fr/quezako-ces-ailerons-reviendront-sur-terre

demonstrator only
height: 15 meters
first test flight planned for end of 2020
« Last Edit: 04/03/2018 07:43 PM by Jester »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #132 on: 04/04/2018 04:00 AM »
https://spacegate.cnes.fr/fr/quezako-ces-ailerons-reviendront-sur-terre

demonstrator only
height: 15 meters
first test flight planned for end of 2020
It will be equipped with a reusable cryogenic engine running on hydrogen and oxygen and four deployable fins at the top.

This test vehicle (eg Grasshopper), to learn about vertical landing, plus issues with reuseability. I think engine choice is more what they have available to them in near term, not necessary what their operational RLV will use.

Offline woods170

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #133 on: 04/04/2018 07:27 AM »
https://spacegate.cnes.fr/fr/quezako-ces-ailerons-reviendront-sur-terre

demonstrator only
height: 15 meters
first test flight planned for end of 2020

Barely different from what was proposed 5 months ago:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41330.msg1741246#msg1741246

Offline Asteroza

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #134 on: 04/05/2018 05:22 AM »
Some interesting Callisto news. Article French, my summary below:
Callisto, un démonstrateur de lanceur réutilisable à l'horizon 2020


Assemly in Japan(sic!) and features a Japanese LH2/LOX engine.

Height: 13m
Diameter: 1,1m
Take-off weight: 3,6 tons

Germany: Landing gear, control surfaces,
France: LH2 tank
Japan: Engine, LOX tank

Flights to 35km altitude with Mach 6, flight profile similar to a launcher first stage.


And now we know there will be a second demonstrator: Themis

Planned for 2025
Mass and size 10x of Callisto.
Propulsion will be 1 to 3 Prometheus engines.
Will either result in an evolved Ariane 6 or ArianeNext.

I wonder if this is related to RVT follow-on work and the hydrolox engine Dr. Ishitani was working on...

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #135 on: 04/12/2018 08:25 AM »
Not sure if this is already known, but at the CNES presentation today at the South Australian Space Forum they showed a drawing of the base of a launch vehicle with seven (six outer, one inner) gas generator engines with the turbine exhausts all in the same direction. I asked a question about what was being shown. The presenter said this is a configuration they are studying using the Prometheus engine. No legs were shown. The engines were mounted in a hexagonal structure.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #136 on: 04/12/2018 07:20 PM »
Is that not the so-called “Ariane Next” concept, the one in the video at the top of this page?
« Last Edit: 04/12/2018 07:23 PM by Alpha_Centauri »

Offline woods170

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #137 on: 04/13/2018 06:36 AM »
Is that not the so-called “Ariane Next” concept, the one in the video at the top of this page?

Yes, it is. It is one of several concepts being studied.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #138 on: 04/13/2018 07:07 AM »
Is that not the so-called “Ariane Next” concept, the one in the video at the top of this page?

Yes, that is what I saw, but the picture was more refined. If I remember right, it did not have the thick walls as shown in the Twitter video. Cropped and enhanced image from the Twitter video below.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2018 07:07 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Jester

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Re: CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal
« Reply #139 on: 04/13/2018 10:32 AM »
Better pics
« Last Edit: 04/13/2018 10:33 AM by Jester »

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