Author Topic: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)  (Read 205811 times)

Offline baldusi

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #260 on: 03/21/2017 06:53 PM »
I'm wondering. But the Russians also had parachutes and airbags for the recovery of Energyia's booster  (very closely related to the Zenit first stage).

Offline CorvusCorax

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #261 on: 03/21/2017 10:29 PM »
Both recovery schemes have been proven and demonstrated.
A stage with a very good mass fraction - aka light tanks - is too flimsy to survive reentry, parachute, or ground/water impact, but since its so light, not much fuel is needed for powered descent&landing either. Propulsive landing becomes possible.

A heavy stage with ***** weight ratio would need way too much propellant for that manouver, but like with SSRBs, they can be made sturdy enough to survive reentry+parachute+splashdown/impact. You need more boosters for the same performance though.

Now wether thats economically viable has to be seen. I wouldn't diss the Chinese approach per se, but what SpaceX is doing definitelt seems more elegant.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #262 on: 03/24/2017 05:16 AM »
 I'm not sure if this has been posted here or not, but I haven't seen it so....
 I'll delete it if it's already up somewhere. It's over two years old.
https://twitter.com/spacex/status/552876085743218688?lang=en
« Last Edit: 03/24/2017 04:11 PM by Nomadd »

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #263 on: 03/24/2017 02:00 PM »
Heh.

Blatant ripoff of https://xkcd.com/1133/

Online cscott

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #264 on: 03/24/2017 02:42 PM »
Heh.

Blatant ripoff of https://xkcd.com/1133/
I'd call it a "tribute" rather than a "rip-off".  I've had a copy hanging on my wall for a couple of years now.

Offline dglow

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #265 on: 03/24/2017 04:51 PM »
Agree. Randall would be flattered.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #266 on: 03/27/2017 07:03 PM »
Interesting picture of Elon inside part of an F9, from a Vanity Fair article about his AI interests:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/elon-musk-billion-dollar-crusade-to-stop-ai-space-x

Online ugordan

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #267 on: 03/27/2017 07:04 PM »
Looks like an old v1.0 interstage. 3 parachute compartments?

Online matthewkantar

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #268 on: 03/27/2017 07:11 PM »
I have seen those described as parachute compartments before, but have no idea if that is what they are/were. The photo is dated 2010. Have not seen Musk so cleaned up in a long while.

Matthew

Offline old_sellsword

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #269 on: 03/27/2017 07:12 PM »
Looks like an old v1.0 interstage. 3 parachute compartments?

Indeed:

Quote from: Picture Caption
Elon Musk, co-founder of Tesla and OpenAI, inside part of a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket, in Cape Canaveral, Florida, 2010.

Online Lar

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #270 on: 03/28/2017 09:28 AM »
Could easily be some boring ERP type stuff.
For the record, ERP is not "boring"..

I'll grant you it's not as exciting as GNC/EDL software, but for an operation as massive as SpaceX with so many different work streams requiring coordination, including different Assembly Bills of Material for each build, the right parts at the right time in the right place, the right people in the right places, etc. the resource planning problem is very, very, non trivial and the software used to solve it is not in any way boring[1].

That said I find it highly unlikely that SpaceX is using custom ERP... There are many vendors that have really good stuff.  (I thought that if there was ever a chance for me to work at SpaceX, this would be my path in, working on their ERP or HR or accounting package implementations.) So, not likely what this guy was tweeting about. (Did we ever find out?)

This is probably OT even for a general Falcon discussion, as it has more to do with manufacturing tech than launcher capabilities. But it's a hard problem, albeit a solved one, and you called my field boring!

1 - The software I support, IBM Information Server[2] (and its major component DataStage) is massively parallel data transformation and movement software, and it is often used as "glue" to get data into and out of commercial ERP packages such as SAP.
2 - https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/infosphere-information-server  (shameless plug[3], but our software kicks butt...)
3 - I am not an official IBM spokesperson. You'd be daft to think I was. IBM would be daft to let me be....
« Last Edit: 03/28/2017 10:17 AM by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Online abaddon

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #271 on: 03/28/2017 01:27 PM »
So, not likely what this guy was tweeting about. (Did we ever find out?)
Don't believe so.  Based on the timing it could be the Froomba.  Or (more likely) it's something else like what you suggest; there are a lot of "boring" critical functions required to run an operation this large that it could be, that we would never guess without more information.

Online LouScheffer

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #272 on: 03/28/2017 01:50 PM »
Could easily be some boring ERP type stuff.
For the record, ERP is not "boring"..
For me, the ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) part of Apollo was the most impressive part of the project.  Millions of moving parts, with a huge number of them critical, so the project could not move forward without them.  Many of them requiring technology development, which is hideously hard to schedule.  And every one of those technology developments had to succeed, and by a certain date.  Of course they had the money to try things in parallel, but parallel is not independent (for example, if the requirements are not well understood, you could have three vendors but they would all be late).  And all of these are in the critical path (no spacesuits, no moon landing).

Observers have pointed out the irony of the USA succeeding by means of massive central planning, whereas the USSR failed due to allowing internal competition.  But I'd rank Apollo as the best planned technical project  ever.

Online Lar

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #273 on: 03/28/2017 02:16 PM »
Roger that on Apollo. And they did it with hand drawn drawings, phones and memos. No email, no video conferencing, no CAD systems, no nothing.  See also this https://www.quora.com/How-much-would-a-Moon-landing-using-modern-technology-cost-today-compared-to-1969 (maybe more about Apollo belongs in historical)

We're veering from F9. More on ERP probably belongs here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40758.msg1659429#msg1659429

Zardar found an amazing article about Tesla's ERP, which SpaceX uses.  Nice work. Linked there.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Online LouScheffer

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #274 on: 03/31/2017 12:29 AM »
Musk: New design coming for Grid Fin.  Will be largest titanium forging in the world.  Current Grid Fin is aluminum and gets so hot it lights on fire... which isn't good for reuse.
How can it be the biggest?   From
DEDICATION PROGRAM:  NATIONAL HISTORIC MECHANICAL ENGINEERING LANDMARK, THE WYMAN-GORDON 50,000-TON FORGING PRESS
Quote
Engineers wanted a forged beam that would save weight and eliminate
the need for many assembled components. Using a procedure developed
during work on the SST project, Wyman-Gordon produced the largest
closed-die titanium forging made anywhere in the world. The beam
measured 20 feet long by four feet across. It weighed over 4,000 pounds.
Since then, over 2,000 have been produced without a rejection.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #275 on: 03/31/2017 12:38 AM »
And there was a lot of forged titanium on the SR-71. Don't know about relative sizes, though.
« Last Edit: 03/31/2017 12:39 AM by Kabloona »

Offline Almoturg

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #276 on: 03/31/2017 12:47 AM »
I haven't seen this posted here yet:

A former SpaceX employee on Reddit claims that they switched from welding the octaweb to bolting it together (original post).

Quote from: em-power
I just had 2 different people confirm to me today that SpaceX is not welding anymore new octawebs, they switched to a bolt together design. sounds pretty crazy, didnt think it would be a viable option, but also not the first time i've been proven wrong. this should make it MUUUUUUUUUUCH easier to switch between single stick cores to FH center/side boosters. very neat! wonder if we'll see the new design somewhat up close soon.

Quote from: em-power
zero welding on the octaweb. the entire welding section dedicated to octaweb, robot cells etc has been dismantled and is just an assembly area now.

Offline CameronD

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #277 on: 03/31/2017 12:50 AM »
I haven't seen this posted here yet:

Thanks for posting that.  ..and welcome to the forum! :)
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline IainMcClatchie

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #278 on: 03/31/2017 01:00 AM »
I've seen that article about the "Major" 50,000 ton press at Wyman-Gordon before, and I've always wondered...

Supposedly the Westinghouse AP1000 reactor has a pressure vessel which requires a 15,000 ton press to form a 600 ton ingot.  And, it's well known that the U.S. does not have any presses which can do it.  Japan Steel Works is the only supplier, capable of 4 pressure vessels a year, and has already sold all its capacity for the next five years.

There must be something about the "Major" press at Wyman-Gordon that prevents it from forging pressure vessels.  Is it that they never certified it with the ASME N-stamp?  Or is there some physical thing that's different?

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #279 on: 03/31/2017 11:07 AM »
Musk: New design coming for Grid Fin.  Will be largest titanium forging in the world.  Current Grid Fin is aluminum and gets so hot it lights on fire... which isn't good for reuse.
How can it be the biggest?   From
DEDICATION PROGRAM:  NATIONAL HISTORIC MECHANICAL ENGINEERING LANDMARK, THE WYMAN-GORDON 50,000-TON FORGING PRESS ...

Perhaps the answer is in the word 'historic' - is anybody currently making a larger titanium forging than the Grid Fin will be?

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