Author Topic: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)  (Read 308091 times)

Online guckyfan

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #920 on: 04/06/2018 07:09 PM »
NASA will have Dream Chaser for land landing now. Without risking Cargo and/or paying for R&D landings of D2. I don't like that D2 won't propulsively land but no need to put all the blame/expectations on NASA.

The fact that there is Dream Chaser for downmass makes it only more obvious that NASA could schedule a few missions with downmass they can afford to lose.

Offline mme

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #921 on: 04/06/2018 07:29 PM »
NASA will have Dream Chaser for land landing now. Without risking Cargo and/or paying for R&D landings of D2. I don't like that D2 won't propulsively land but no need to put all the blame/expectations on NASA.

The fact that there is Dream Chaser for downmass makes it only more obvious that NASA could schedule a few missions with downmass they can afford to lose.
I don't see that. Dream Chaser is doing all the R&D for landing as part of it's development.  SX wanted NASA to risk Cargo as part of the R&D. IMHO.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline rpapo

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #922 on: 04/06/2018 07:30 PM »
NASA will have Dream Chaser for land landing now. Without risking Cargo and/or paying for R&D landings of D2. I don't like that D2 won't propulsively land but no need to put all the blame/expectations on NASA.

The fact that there is Dream Chaser for downmass makes it only more obvious that NASA could schedule a few missions with downmass they can afford to lose.
From NASA's point of view, there is no such thing as downmass they can afford to lose.  If it's not worth the ride down, but has to go, it goes in Cygnus.
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Offline woods170

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #923 on: 04/06/2018 07:35 PM »
It’s worth noting that Falcon 9 and Merlin 1D are fantastically high performance as well. Even though they’re kerolox, they have just about the highest payload to liftoff mass ratio as any other rocket, and Merlin 1D has a much higher thrust to weight ratio than any pumpfed rocket ever.

Falcon 9 uses aluminum-lithium alloy. Does Delta IV use that? Falcon and Merlin use deep propellant chilling. Does Atlas V or Delta do that? No.

SpaceX DID pursue cost reduction, but they pursued dry mass performance improvements more aggressively than anyone else. At the end of the day, that actually beat payload to LEO for the same liftoff mass as the hydrolox launchers. Merlin is no slouch in Isp. It has the highest Isp of any kerolox gas generator.

It is good to understand here that SpaceX started with Merlin 1A, which is nowhere near the performance figures for Merlin 1D.
Merlin 1D, as efficient an engine as it is today, is the result of eight ( 8 ) years of evolutional development of Merlin engines.
And that is completely different from the oldspace way of working which wants the most efficiently working engine from the get-go.
Same for Falcon 1 to Falcon 9 evolution. Dry mass performance for Falcon 1 wasn't all that great. It improved when the step to Falcon 9 v1.0 was made. And was improved again when Falcon 9 v1.1 came into service.
Again: evolutional development in stead of old-space way of wanting to have optimal dry-mass performance from the get-go.
« Last Edit: 04/06/2018 07:35 PM by woods170 »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #924 on: 04/07/2018 10:33 PM »
But evolution of heritage designs is what oldspace has also done. That isn’t unique to SpaceX. What is unique is the extent to which they pushed performance with respect to dry mass and thrust to weight.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online gongora

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #925 on: 04/10/2018 03:39 PM »
Apparently I'm too tired to properly search the forums today.  Could someone point me to where we discussed the new Dragon 2 processing facility near the CCAFS skid strip?

Online AnalogMan

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #926 on: 04/10/2018 04:56 PM »
Apparently I'm too tired to properly search the forums today.  Could someone point me to where we discussed the new Dragon 2 processing facility near the CCAFS skid strip?

Maybe you were thinking of posts in this thread starting at:

SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36513.msg1716246#msg1716246

... and following posts.

Online gongora

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #927 on: 04/10/2018 05:04 PM »
Apparently I'm too tired to properly search the forums today.  Could someone point me to where we discussed the new Dragon 2 processing facility near the CCAFS skid strip?

Maybe you were thinking of posts in this thread starting at:

SpaceX Eastern Range Landing Facilities
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36513.msg1716246#msg1716246

... and following posts.

No, it's a different facility.  Thanks for looking though.

Online gongora

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #928 on: 04/10/2018 05:18 PM »
Apparently I'm too tired to properly search the forums today.  Could someone point me to where we discussed the new Dragon 2 processing facility near the CCAFS skid strip?

Finally found it in the Dragon 2 thread:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41016.msg1766593#msg1766593

Anyway, a new FCC permit request 0314-EX-CN-2018 for Dragon checkouts shows they're using both the NPF and DPF buildings.

Cape Canaveral AFS   Florida   North  28  28  14   West  80  34  48   CCAFS, FL: Mobile within integration facility DPF   Area 59 Bldg. 55820   BREVARD   0.10 km
Cape Canaveral AFS   Florida   North  28  28  11   West  80  34  44   CCAFS, FL: Mobile within integration facility NPF   Area 59 Bldg. 55810   BREVARD   0.10 km

Online AncientU

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #929 on: 04/19/2018 10:56 AM »
Interesting tidbit:
Quote
It was just about 15 years ago that Elon Musk tried to buy some Russian rockets. He was spat at during the meeting and told to go away. He then started SpaceX. This week, Russia said it's getting out of the rocket biz. Be careful where you spit
https://twitter.com/valleyhack/status/986783183097114624

Quote
Russia appears to have surrendered to SpaceX in the global launch market
Quote
On Tuesday, however, Russia's chief spaceflight official, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, made a remarkable comment about that country's competition with SpaceX.

"The share of launch vehicles is as small as 4 percent of the overall market of space services," Rogozin said in an interview with a Russian television station. "The 4 percent stake isn’t worth the effort to try to elbow Musk and China aside. Payloads manufacturing is where good money can be made."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04/russia-appears-to-have-surrendered-to-spacex-in-the-global-launch-market/

Remember the Trampoline Man?
« Last Edit: 04/19/2018 11:57 AM by AncientU »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #930 on: 04/19/2018 07:33 PM »

Remember the Trampoline Man?

Ah, how quickly the fickle tides of fate can change. It's definitely worth a trip down mempory lane.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/trampoline-space-russian-official-tells-nasa-take-flying-leap-n92616

Perhaps we could say it's Musk and SpaceX who have made their own Great Leap Forward.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2018 07:40 PM by Kabloona »

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #931 on: 04/19/2018 07:43 PM »
Lol, yeah. The trampoline man.   Oh the good old days, of a few years ago. 

It’s going to be great having Boeing and SpaceX flying people soon.

Domestic crew capability, but also, not sending money to Russia will be a win-win.
SpaceX, just a few things planned for 2018: FH, Starlink Prototypes, Block 5, Dragon 2, Increased launch rate.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #932 on: 04/20/2018 12:57 AM »
It’s going to be great having Boeing and SpaceX flying people soon.

"soon"

Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline Tomness

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #933 on: 04/21/2018 08:02 PM »

Vulcan Heavy about 15.8 tonnes GTO. 

Falcon Heavy 8 tonnes GTO.

Unless they expend the thing, but that's not possible because only recoverable rockets are cost competitive, I'm told repeatedly.

 - Ed Kyle

Hi Ed wouldn't that be Falcon 9 Block 5 Expendable Payload to GTO 8,300kg / 18,300 lb Falcon Heavy Expendable 26,700kg / 58,860 lb. So recoverable F9 is 6,200 kg than recoverable FH should be about 20,000 kg. Recovery costing about 1/3 of the performance?

Offline LastStarFighter

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #934 on: 04/21/2018 08:11 PM »
It’s going to be great having Boeing and SpaceX flying people soon.

"soon"

“But when will then be now?”

Offline woods170

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #935 on: 04/22/2018 01:51 PM »
It’s going to be great having Boeing and SpaceX flying people soon.

"soon"

“But when will then be now?”

That's what an overdose of Mel Brooks does: quoting Spaceballs on the NSF forum.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #936 on: 04/22/2018 09:47 PM »
It’s going to be great having Boeing and SpaceX flying people soon.

"soon"

To the cynic, things always suck even when they don't.
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #937 on: 04/24/2018 05:18 PM »
There's an ongoing AMA on Reddit with SpaceX's VP of production, Andy Lambert.

It's probably close to the end, but if anyone here wants a chance to have a question answered maybe there's still time.

An interesting tidbit on Block 5 production:

Question:
Quote
For the Block V upgrade, did you have to change some manufacturing techniques in favor of reusability? I.e. is the Block V harder to manufacture so you can reuse it easier? If so, what did you have to change for example?

Answer:
Quote
Biggest process change was eliminating Tig welding of the thrust structure or “Octaweb” and the move to a bolted design but this made it much easier and faster to produce overall as well. Block 5 is significantly easier to produce in many areas as the technicians and manufacturing engineers worked extremely well with our design partners to incorporate design for manufacturing (DFM) solutions, based on all that we had learned from earlier vehicle builds.

It seems the old aerospace mantra that better reliability and reusability come with higher cost and complexity isn't necessarily true.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2018 05:24 PM by AbuSimbel »
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Online speedevil

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Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #938 on: 04/24/2018 05:24 PM »
It seems the old aerospace mantra that better reliability and reusability come with higher cost and complexity isn't necessarily true.

Lots of interesting stuff.

On how long it takes to make a tank:
Quote
Approximately 3 months from start of tank build to shipping. We can flex the factory to ship a new booster every 14 days if necessary.

Astounding.

Re: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14)
« Reply #939 on: 04/24/2018 05:30 PM »
Yep, some info about BFR production too, even if off topic here.

Also he says their max production rate for Merlin is 1 per day.
Failure is not only an option, it's the only way to learn.
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