Relativity Space: General Thread

[Robotbeat]

wen launch?

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1362129115898212354

Check out this timelapse of our stage 2 flight print of Terran 1! Relativity's unique additive technology allows us to print in one integral piece, including all 3 domes. #RelativitySpace #3DPrinting #Innovation

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1364667198384447489

We've officially completed and buckle-tested the Stage 1 Iron Bird tank demonstrator model! Check out these shots of the tank moving outdoors, going fully vertically and being installed into our LA1 Structures Test Stand.💥#RelativitySpace #3DPrinting #Innovation

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/25/relativitys-reusable-terran-rocket-competitor-to-spacexs-falcon-9.html

Relativity Space unveils a reusable, 3D-printed rocket to compete with SpaceX’s Falcon 9
PUBLISHED THU, FEB 25 20213:05 PM EST
Michael Sheetz
@THESHEETZTWEETZ

KEY POINTS

3D-printing rocket builder Relativity Space is working on Terran R, a fully reusable launch vehicle that would be near the capabilities of SpaceX’s Falcon 9 rocket.

Terran R is “really an obvious evolution” from the company’s Terran 1 rocket, Relativity CEO Tim Ellis told CNBC, the latter of which is scheduled to launch for the first time later this year.

“I’ve always been a huge fan of reusability. No matter how you look at it ... making [a reusable rocket] has got to be part of that future,” Ellis added.

Edit to add: caption for attached image

An artist’s illustration of the difference in size between the company’s Terran 1 rocket, to the left, and the planned Terran R rocket.

[trimeta]

From that article:

“We’ve also tested the engine for the upper stage,” Ellis said. “It’s a copper chamber engine ... and it’s actually now the same engine on the upper stage of Terran R as on Terran 1.”

Image caption: The company test fires an Aeon 1 engine, upgraded with copper and designed for use in the upper stage of the Terran R rocket, at its facility at NASA’s Stennis center in Mississippi.

So, they're modifying the Aeon 1 to add a copper chamber (which the nine Aeon 1s on the first stage don't have?) for use in the upper stage of the Terran 1, so it won't just be "the standard Aeon 1 with an extended nozzle." But they also want to use this copper-chamber version of the Aeon 1 as the second-stage engine for a Falcon 9-class rocket? Their website gives the Aeon 1 Vac as having 29,800 lbf of thrust. Compare with the Merlin 1D Vac, which has 220,500 lbf of thrust. Sure, the RL-10, used on many upper stages, has 24,800 lbf of thrust, so actually less than the Aeon 1 Vac. But vehicles using the RL-10 stage quite late, to give their second stage more time to take advantage of that low-thrust, high-Isp engine. If the Terran R will also be staging late, that raises questions about how they plan to recover the first stage.

[jongoff]

Cool to see that they're adding plans for a fully-reusable vehicle after Terran-1. There aren't enough credible US companies pursuing reusable launch. I had cornered Tim after a speaking engagement several years back (he was one of my two last interns at Masten), and asked him why he wasn't going for something more reusable at the time. He pointed out that a lot of the structural and fabrication challenges of making a reusable vehicle (which often want to be more complex than a traditional expendable rocket) are made easier with the 3d printing technologies they're developing.

Looking forward to seeing more details, and how they evolve over time,

~Jon

[jongoff]

On a fun related note, anyone want to take bets on which company will put something in orbit first -- Relativity or Blue Origin?

~Jon

[Solarsail]

https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1362129115898212354

Check out this timelapse of our stage 2 flight print of Terran 1! Relativity's unique additive technology allows us to print in one integral piece, including all 3 domes. #RelativitySpace #3DPrinting #Innovation

A few days after the fact, but it's also somewhat interesting to have a confirmation that their 3D printing head (and robotic arm) are indeed operating in a room with a regular atmosphere, not all-argon or similar.  Not sure if they have any sort of shielding gas, or if they can do without one.

[trimeta]

Cool to see that they're adding plans for a fully-reusable vehicle after Terran-1. There aren't enough credible US companies pursuing reusable launch. I had cornered Tim after a speaking engagement several years back (he was one of my two last interns at Masten), and asked him why he wasn't going for something more reusable at the time. He pointed out that a lot of the structural and fabrication challenges of making a reusable vehicle (which often want to be more complex than a traditional expendable rocket) are made easier with the 3d printing technologies they're developing.

Looking forward to seeing more details, and how they evolve over time,

~Jon

Rocket Lab seems pretty serious about reusability, although only partial reusability. Firefly has also talked about their "Firefly Gamma" two-stage spaceplane, where the first stage is reusable; it seems a bit fanciful, though, and I'll believe them once they're actually flying the Beta. iRocket talks about being "fully reusable," but this probably pushes the definition of "credible" US companies.

And to answer the question you posed in your other comment, at this point I think SLS will launch many months before New Glenn does. That should tell you where I think New Glenn stands compared to any even semi-credible launch provider.

[Asteroza]

On a fun related note, anyone want to take bets on which company will put something in orbit first -- Relativity or Blue Origin?

~Jon

I think you meant to say "which is faster, a 3D printer or Blue Origin?"...

[GWH]

Their website gives the Aeon 1 Vac as having 29,800 lbf of thrust. Compare with the Merlin 1D Vac, which has 220,500 lbf of thrust.

They didn't specifically say they would only use 1 did they?
May as well go for 9, seems to work well for landing 

[JEF_300]

Their website gives the Aeon 1 Vac as having 29,800 lbf of thrust. Compare with the Merlin 1D Vac, which has 220,500 lbf of thrust.

They didn't specifically say they would only use 1 did they?
May as well go for 9, seems to work well for landing 

That's what I was thinking. Let's also keep in mind that their using methalox, so if we're ball-parking it, the ideal/acceptable thrust value is going to be somewhere in between centaur and the F9 upper stage.

[TrevorMonty]

Their website gives the Aeon 1 Vac as having 29,800 lbf of thrust. Compare with the Merlin 1D Vac, which has 220,500 lbf of thrust.

They didn't specifically say they would only use 1 did they?
May as well go for 9, seems to work well for landing 

Use SS approach and have mixture of vac and SL landing engines. May even copy SS reentry design.
Reuseable 2nd stages also allow for return stuff to earth in their cargo bay. This downmass market maybe more valuable than upmass especially when it comes to servicing commercial space stations.

The could use Terran 1 booster to develop their RLV technology.

Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk

[Cheapchips]

Can't wait to see what their design for full reuse looks like.  If the Terran R is actually a similar size to the silutette, they're cramming full reuse into something not much bigger than an F9 but for very little payload penalty.

It suggests that they don't need a dedicated heat shield. With 3d printing, what material(s) would enable 'naked' stage 2 tanks?

The other option would be transpiration cooling as part of the printed tank design?  I'm not sure that Stargate can print with the necessary fineness though.
 

[playadelmars]

They will now be competing against this: https://spacenews.com/rocket-lab-to-go-public-through-spac-merger-and-develop-medium-lift-rocket/

Larger rockets from small and medium satellite players not wholly unexpected, but interesting to see them be announced at similar times. Relativity announced theirs last week, now Rocket Lab...

[jongoff]

They will now be competing against this: https://spacenews.com/rocket-lab-to-go-public-through-spac-merger-and-develop-medium-lift-rocket/

Larger rockets from small and medium satellite players not wholly unexpected, but interesting to see them be announced at similar times. Relativity announced theirs last week, now Rocket Lab...

It'll be cool having some competition for SpaceX in the reusable launch world. Especially from companies that have been more open to playing nice with others than SpaceX has.

~Jon

[su27k]

RocketLab plays nice with others? I have some doubt about that, but that's for another thread.

What's interesting here is different reactions to the announcements, Relativity announced a new fully reusable F9 class LV and everyone is just "meh", but RocketLab announces Neutron and everyone is like "OMG OMG OMG", while in reality both is at about the same stage (i.e. paper), and will likely launch in the same time frame.

[trimeta]

RocketLab plays nice with others? I have some doubt about that, but that's for another thread.

What's interesting here is different reactions to the announcements, Relativity announced a new fully reusable F9 class LV and everyone is just "meh", but RocketLab announces Neutron and everyone is like "OMG OMG OMG", while in reality both is at about the same stage (i.e. paper), and will likely launch in the same time frame.

There's the slight difference that Rocket Lab has been launching to orbit bimonthly for over two years, and Relativity Space will be very lucky if they make orbit by the end of this year. Also, Neutron is less ambitious than Terran R: the former is planned to have first-stage reuse, but the latter plans to have full (all-stage) reuse, from a company with no experience whatsoever in rocket reuse. Plus Terran R has over twice the payload as Neutron. There's good reason to be more skeptical of Terran R than of Neutron.

That said, I'm excited about Terran R too. I feel like I'm more bullish on Relativity than most in this forum, I certainly wouldn't count them out. If they can actually launch their Terran 1 this year (rather than the typical "Q4 means the next year" we've come to expect from space launch), it will be a good sign that they really are as nimble as they say they are, which would suggest they may be able to pivot to Terran R more quickly than one would expect.

[Robotbeat]

They will now be competing against this: https://spacenews.com/rocket-lab-to-go-public-through-spac-merger-and-develop-medium-lift-rocket/

Larger rockets from small and medium satellite players not wholly unexpected, but interesting to see them be announced at similar times. Relativity announced theirs last week, now Rocket Lab...

It'll be cool having some competition for SpaceX in the reusable launch world. Especially from companies that have been more open to playing nice with others than SpaceX has.

~Jon

RocketLab is that.

BTW, I wonder what role abolishing non-competes in California played in allowing RocketLab to pivot so hard to reuse. While SpaceX has “poached” employees from elsewhere, RocketLab has probably hundreds of SpaceX alums in their ranks. It goes both ways. Locking up knowledge and talent is good for the company that produces the innovation, but bad for the industry as a whole. And likewise, the opposite is true. Free flow of ideas and people allows fierce competition. Gentlemen’s agreements and keeping a tight lid on IP through massive litigation is ultimately bad for the industry and employees in particular.

SpaceX will be given a run for their money by RocketLab, and maybe Relativity (if Relativity can discard their obsession with 3D printing everything including tanks).

This competition is also good as it keeps the power of people like Elon in check. Don’t like Elon? Go work for a competitor! (I tend to like him, but I understand why some don’t.)

[TrevorMonty]

They will now be competing against this: https://spacenews.com/rocket-lab-to-go-public-through-spac-merger-and-develop-medium-lift-rocket/

Larger rockets from small and medium satellite players not wholly unexpected, but interesting to see them be announced at similar times. Relativity announced theirs last week, now Rocket Lab...

It'll be cool having some competition for SpaceX in the reusable launch world. Especially from companies that have been more open to playing nice with others than SpaceX has.

~Jon

RocketLab is that.

BTW, I wonder what role abolishing non-competes in California played in allowing RocketLab to pivot so hard to reuse. While SpaceX has “poached” employees from elsewhere, RocketLab has probably hundreds of SpaceX alums in their ranks. It goes both ways. Locking up knowledge and talent is good for the company that produces the innovation, but bad for the industry as a whole. And likewise, the opposite is true. Free flow of ideas and people allows fierce competition. Gentlemen’s agreements and keeping a tight lid on IP through massive litigation is ultimately bad for the industry and employees in particular.

SpaceX will be given a run for their money by RocketLab, and maybe Relativity (if Relativity can discard their obsession with 3D printing everything including tanks).

This competition is also good as it keeps the power of people like Elon in check. Don’t like Elon? Go work for a competitor! (I tend to like him, but I understand why some don’t.)

SpaceX and Blue have produced large talent pool of engineers which small launch companies have hired and expanded. Developing a turbopump engine isn't as big a deal as it use to be given large talent pool of experienced propulsion engineers out there.

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