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#820 by tleach on 22 Sep, 2016 06:01
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How does the exchange work between here so to speak and distant objects beyond the cosmological horizon? Why is it always with objects beyond the cosmological horizon in the universe? As isn't the cosmological horizon the maximum distance you can retrieve information from. Are we saying it works because it is beyond the informational limits.
Because Holographic Principle?
Seriously though, we may all be (many) squiggles on the 2 dimensional cosmic horizon or (many) quantized vortices in the spacetime superfluid. Who knows!?As for Dr. Rodal presenting on HN Theory. I almost dropped out of my seat when I saw that post. Between Paul March's declaration that for him he sees White's QV Theory and Woodwards Theory as being two sides of the same coin. And providing Dr. Rodal the SSI link referencing Fearns latest papers on HN Theory and how it can be used to explain their experimental results. I Personally couldnt help but see some smoke on the horizon. I am eagerly awaiting the videos from the conference.
I think what it boils down to is that anything new kinda has to be "two sides of the same coin" or we would have spotted before now. It's a particle! No, it's a wave! No, it's a particle! No, it's a pilot wave! Anyway, you get my drift. If two or more of these theories are converging on the same mathematical descriptions/predictions, then I think we're really onto something here! Hooray!
Also, am I the only one who's intrigued by the coincidentally close timing of the SSI conference and Elon Musk's recent tweets?QuoteTurns out MCT can go well beyond Mars, so will need a new name
andQuoteMaybe Ultimate Spaceship, Version 2? Mostly because it is not the ultimate and there isn't a version 1.
If Shell and other builders can make the progress that they may or may not have made on shoestring budgets using household microwave magnetrons and some elbow grease, what has Elon been able to accomplish in that time? I sincerely doubt that he's never heard of the EM Drive, the Q Drive or the Mach Effect Thruster. And let's face it, the promise of the technology, if it works, is well worth a couple tens of millions in R&D.
In fact, maybe he's got his whole A team working on the SpaceX Ultimate Spaceship Version 2, complete with EM Drive based propulsion? If he does, that means his B team is working on the Falcon 9... Which could explain why they keep blowing up... Hmmm... Coincidence? -
#821 by Chrochne on 22 Sep, 2016 06:05
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Mr. Robert Smith from SSI shared some nice photo with us
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Behold NSF community - our beautiful builder SeeShells and with Mr. Gary Hudson president of SSI.
http://ssi.org/ssi-woodward-propulsion-workshop/#comment-35841 -
#822 by giulioprisco on 22 Sep, 2016 06:13
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I'd say the presentations are split about 50-50 between Mach Effect and EMdrive topic and results, and there is a concerted effort to integrate the theories for each approach.
Integrating the theories is an intriguing possibility, and I would like to hear more about that. Is anyone discussing McCulloch's theories?
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601299/the-curious-link-between-the-fly-by-anomaly-and-the-impossible-emdrive-thruster/
http://arxiv.org/abs/1604.03449
By the way I see that Cramer is mentioned in this thread. Is he there? -
#823 by TheTraveller on 22 Sep, 2016 07:17
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Does anyone know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the test campaign being reported in the december paper used a frustum design that included a dielectric?
Was the same frustum as used in the atmo test paper, with maybe a few upgrades on the Rf side. So yes there was a dielectric at the small end. -
#824 by Star One on 22 Sep, 2016 08:02
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Mr. Robert Smith from SSI shared some nice photo with us
.
Behold NSF community - our beautiful builder SeeShells and with Mr. Gary Hudson president of SSI.
http://ssi.org/ssi-woodward-propulsion-workshop/#comment-35841
Thank you. I can imagine people will be examining that white board in the image. -
#825 by Chrochne on 22 Sep, 2016 08:44
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Mr. Robert Smith from SSI shared some nice photo with us
.
Behold NSF community - our beautiful builder SeeShells and with Mr. Gary Hudson president of SSI.
http://ssi.org/ssi-woodward-propulsion-workshop/#comment-35841
Thank you. I can imagine people will be examining that white board in the image.
Exactly. What is Mr. Hudson pointing at? -
#826 by TheTraveller on 22 Sep, 2016 09:13
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Build Update
While I await the delivery of the 1st 2 spherical end plate thrusters, work has continued on the control and monitoring system as attached.
Goal here is to eliminate as much of the microwave engineering black magic as possible by using a commercial Rf amp that has inbuilt 31dBm variable attenuator, forward & reflected power measurement, min 3:1 VSWR at full power protection and automatic shutdown on limits exceeded.
Freq generation is done by the use of a commercially available Rf gen, that is USB controlled and can step the output freq +-1kHz plus has inbuilt sweep capability.
The very important freq tracking on lowest reflected power is done via a custom 16 bit MicroChip cpu with USB interface that is in development. This unit will be made available but it will need to be interfaced to the specified freq generator and Rf amp. The freq tracker design will also be made available.
Additionally there is needed a Windows based control and monitoring software package that is in development and will be made available.
Plans for the thruster have been disclosed and further full engineering drawings will be made available.
Overall goal is to make available to who ever wishes to engage EmDrive research, a simple to use package that eliminates almost all the detailed tech specific knowledge and can place in the hands of developers and researchers a complete working EmDrive system.
Please PM if you have an interest to be involved as this system moves forward.
To be very clear, full BOM and supplier lists will be provided to those who wish to do their own build and there will then be no need to obtain anything from me but the free data for replication.
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#827 by Tellmeagain on 22 Sep, 2016 10:27
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Does anyone know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the test campaign being reported in the december paper used a frustum design that included a dielectric?
Was the same frustum as used in the atmo test paper, with maybe a few upgrades on the Rf side. So yes there was a dielectric at the small end.
From old information posted by Paul March long ago, it seemed the amplifier was moved from far away to on top of the big plate of the frustum. -
#828 by flux_capacitor on 22 Sep, 2016 10:41
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I'd say the presentations are split about 50-50 between Mach Effect and EMdrive topic and results, and there is a concerted effort to integrate the theories for each approach.
This is a good thing to gather everyone around a common theory or a group of mutually compatible theories. We must point out that the anomalous thrust produced by the EmDrive with a dielectric inside can indeed be explained as a Mach effect according to Woodward and March:
"The RF excited dielectric in the cavity generates bulk proper accelerations and decelerations during RF cycles, that in turn generate an 2ω electrostrictive response in the dielectric that could, under the correct EM mode and physical configurations, force rectify the dielectric vibrations induced in the dielectric by the RF over a full RF cycle, into a unidirectional thrust."
But we also must point out that, still according to Woodward, an EmDrive without any dielectric can not work.*
This is in contradiction with recent experiments of the EmDrive without any dielectric from SPR (Shawyer), Cannae LLC (Fetta), TU Dresden (Tajmar), NWPU (Yang) even according to a post from Paul March where he stated that Eagleworks measured an anomalous force without a dielectric inside (while their whole test campaign focused on a cavity integrating a dielectric though) as well as DIYers who measured thrust with finer control than before: rfmwguy (Dave), Seeshells (Michelle), TheTraveller (Phil), Monomorphic (Jamie)
So it will be quite interesting to follow the debates over Mach effect and the EmDrive that took place at this exotic propulsion workshop.
* However, we can't rule out a Machian explanation of a pure copper cavity, involving an interaction with the walls (metal or coating), the material relative permittivity being perhaps modified by RF frequencies (skin effect?). But wouldn't this Machian explanation produce much weaker forces than a stack of bigger dielectric disks? -
#829 by TheTraveller on 22 Sep, 2016 12:01
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Does anyone know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the test campaign being reported in the december paper used a frustum design that included a dielectric?
Was the same frustum as used in the atmo test paper, with maybe a few upgrades on the Rf side. So yes there was a dielectric at the small end.
From old information posted by Paul March long ago, it seemed the amplifier was moved from far away to on top of the big plate of the frustum.
I though Mr March was at one point intending to build a new frustum?
The in vac test champaign was completed in 2015. I understand further improvements have been made to the vac test thruster and Rf system.
My frustum design was offered to EW for their next build. The wavy side wall currents are due to the coupling antenna position not being ideal in the FEKO simulation.
I intend to do whatever is necessary to keep developing EmDrive build and test information as open sourced as possible.
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#830 by HMXHMX on 22 Sep, 2016 13:04
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Mr. Robert Smith from SSI shared some nice photo with us
.
Behold NSF community - our beautiful builder SeeShells and with Mr. Gary Hudson president of SSI.
http://ssi.org/ssi-woodward-propulsion-workshop/#comment-35841
Thank you. I can imagine people will be examining that white board in the image.
Exactly. What is Mr. Hudson pointing at?
Don't read too much into what's on the whiteboard. Many people used it during the course of presentations, the boards weren't erased between every session, and I have no idea what I'm pointing at. My staff simply asked me to smile and point to make a nice photo.
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#831 by HMXHMX on 22 Sep, 2016 13:06
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I'd say the presentations are split about 50-50 between Mach Effect and EMdrive topic and results, and there is a concerted effort to integrate the theories for each approach.
This is a good thing to gather everyone around a common theory or a group of mutually compatible theories. We must point out that the anomalous thrust produced by the EmDrive with a dielectric inside can indeed be explained as a Mach effect according to Woodward and March:
"The RF excited dielectric in the cavity generates bulk proper accelerations and decelerations during RF cycles, that in turn generate an 2ω electrostrictive response in the dielectric that could, under the correct EM mode and physical configurations, force rectify the dielectric vibrations induced in the dielectric by the RF over a full RF cycle, into a unidirectional thrust."
But we also must point out that, still according to Woodward, an EmDrive without any dielectric can not work.*
This is in contradiction with recent experiments of the EmDrive without any dielectric from SPR (Shawyer), Cannae LLC (Fetta), TU Dresden (Tajmar), NWPU (Yang) even according to a post from Paul March where he stated that Eagleworks measured an anomalous force without a dielectric inside (while their whole test campaign focused on a cavity integrating a dielectric though) as well as DIYers who measured thrust with finer control than before: rfmwguy (Dave), Seeshells (Michelle), TheTraveller (Phil), Monomorphic (Jamie)
So it will be quite interesting to follow the debates over Mach effect and the EmDrive that took place at this exotic propulsion workshop.
* However, we can't rule out a Machian explanation of a pure copper cavity, involving an interaction with the walls (metal or coating), the material relative permittivity being perhaps modified by RF frequencies (skin effect?). But wouldn't this Machian explanation produce much weaker forces than a stack of bigger dielectric disks?
Bingo. Lots of things may act as dielectrics. -
#832 by Monomorphic on 22 Sep, 2016 13:35
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Build Update
While I await the delivery of the 1st 2 spherical end plate thrusters, work has continued on the control and monitoring system as attached.
I use a fanless mini computer running windows 10 mounted to the torsional pendulum beam. I control that computer via VPN and a laptop. Its batteries are good for 4 hours between charges. A cheaper alternative is a wireless USB hub, but that can be buggy and lacks the versatility of an onboard computer.
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#833 by TheTraveller on 22 Sep, 2016 14:12
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Build Update
While I await the delivery of the 1st 2 spherical end plate thrusters, work has continued on the control and monitoring system as attached.
I use a fanless mini computer running windows 10 mounted to the torsional pendulum beam. I control that computer via VPN and a laptop. Its batteries are good for 4 hours between charges. A cheaper alternative is a wireless USB hub, but that can be buggy and lacks the versatility of an onboard computer.
When you move to a solid state amp and single freq generator, you will need the ability to monitor the reflected power from the frustum and to adjust the freq to obtain min reflected power in the designed mode.
I designed in an off the shelf Rf amp that has inbuilt attenuation and power monitoring as attached as it vastly simplifies the build and number of cables and connectors (both Rf and DC power) involved.
Additionally an off the shelf single freq programmable Rf generator was designed in that allows control via USB interface (really a RS232 interface over USB).
When my freq tracker build is completed, the schematics, PCB layout and source code will be made available but to use it will require the use of the designed in freq gen and Rf amp.
My goal here is to stop others needing to reinvent the lowest reflected power Rf Freq tracker wheel and to have 3 modules, tracker, Rf gen and Rf amp that are available off the shelf.
While my thruster efforts are currently focused on the spherical end plate unit, it is my intention to also have a simpler to build flat end plate thruster that will link with the Rf system I'm developing.
If you are interested in building a flat end plate 2.45GHz TE013 thruster maybe we can work together to make the design data for that unit openly available? As the power levels are relative low, a simple way to build a coupler would be a 1/4 wave stub antenna sticking into the centre of the central TE013 lobe. Would not use that idea at higher power as it may turn into a match stick but at the 100Wrf level it should be OK.
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#834 by Monomorphic on 22 Sep, 2016 14:37
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Build Update
While I await the delivery of the 1st 2 spherical end plate thrusters, work has continued on the control and monitoring system as attached.
I use a fanless mini computer running windows 10 mounted to the torsional pendulum beam. I control that computer via VPN and a laptop. Its batteries are good for 4 hours between charges. A cheaper alternative is a wireless USB hub, but that can be buggy and lacks the versatility of an onboard computer.
When you move to a solid state amp and single freq generator, you will need the ability to monitor the reflected power from the frustum and to adjust the freq to obtain min reflected power in the designed mode.
I designed in an off the shelf Rf amp that has inbuilt attenuation and power monitoring as attached as it vastly simplifies the build and number of cables and connectors (both Rf and DC power) involved.
Additionally an off the shelf single freq programmable Rf generator was designed in that allows control via USB interface (really a RS232 interface over USB).
When my freq tracker build is completed, the schematics, PCB layout and source code will be made available but to use it will require the use of the designed in freq gen and Rf amp.
My goal here is to stop others needing to reinvent the lowest reflected power Rf Freq tracker wheel and to have 3 modules, tracker, Rf gen and Rf amp that are available off the shelf.
While my thruster efforts are currently focused on the spherical end plate unit, it is my intention to also have a simpler to build flat end plate thruster that will link with the Rf system I'm developing.
If you are interested in building a flat end plate 2.45GHz TE013 thruster maybe we can work together to make the design data for that unit openly available? As the power levels are relative low, a simple way to build a coupler would be a 1/4 wave stub antenna sticking into the centre of the central TE013 lobe. Would not use that idea at higher power as it may turn into a match stick but at the 100Wrf level it should be OK.
What kind of drive is needed for that amp? Looking at this sig gen: https://windfreaktech.com/product/usb-rf-signal-generator/ -
#835 by rfmwguy on 22 Sep, 2016 14:47
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Very nice post. You are keenly aware of one of the topics of debate. What I have gathered over the past couple of years is the debate centers on the medium, or dielectric. Mach Effect requires this and EmDrive researchers have differing viewpoints. Shell is on a path which attempts to "unify" the 2 concepts; EmDrive and Mach. This I find "fascinating".I'd say the presentations are split about 50-50 between Mach Effect and EMdrive topic and results, and there is a concerted effort to integrate the theories for each approach.
This is a good thing to gather everyone around a common theory or a group of mutually compatible theories. We must point out that the anomalous thrust produced by the EmDrive with a dielectric inside can indeed be explained as a Mach effect according to Woodward and March:
"The RF excited dielectric in the cavity generates bulk proper accelerations and decelerations during RF cycles, that in turn generate an 2ω electrostrictive response in the dielectric that could, under the correct EM mode and physical configurations, force rectify the dielectric vibrations induced in the dielectric by the RF over a full RF cycle, into a unidirectional thrust."
But we also must point out that, still according to Woodward, an EmDrive without any dielectric can not work.*
This is in contradiction with recent experiments of the EmDrive without any dielectric from SPR (Shawyer), Cannae LLC (Fetta), TU Dresden (Tajmar), NWPU (Yang) even according to a post from Paul March where he stated that Eagleworks measured an anomalous force without a dielectric inside (while their whole test campaign focused on a cavity integrating a dielectric though) as well as DIYers who measured thrust with finer control than before: rfmwguy (Dave), Seeshells (Michelle), TheTraveller (Phil), Monomorphic (Jamie)
So it will be quite interesting to follow the debates over Mach effect and the EmDrive that took place at this exotic propulsion workshop.
* However, we can't rule out a Machian explanation of a pure copper cavity, involving an interaction with the walls (metal or coating), the material relative permittivity being perhaps modified by RF frequencies (skin effect?). But wouldn't this Machian explanation produce much weaker forces than a stack of bigger dielectric disks?
Speaking from my own work, 18.4 mN was achieved without a medium. This does not mean a proper medium could not amplify this result. I focused on polished raw copper, which will be the same cavity in use during Gen III testing next year.
Its become apparent with DIY and professional lab testing that something is there and designers and theorists are struggling to get their minds around it. I think the worst thing that could happen is Mach Effect and EmDrive proponents take sides and battle one another. They should look for commonality and pursue designs as they see fit. If commonality is found, public sharing of this info would be critical to quicker advancement in advanced propulsion.
I guess what I am "preaching" about is collaboration rather than taking sides...if that makes sense. Unfortunately, I suspect the latter has been occurring too often.
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#836 by M.LeBel on 22 Sep, 2016 15:18
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Flux_Capacitor
"Today, as we humans feel waves propagate forward in time, we just ignore the solutions that propagate backward in time. But mathematically and physically, there is no difference between the two classes of solutions, thanks to time-reversal symmetry."
This is our error. Time is a dynamical spontaneous process. This spontaneous direction goes only one way. This process is a point like recursive explosion a la Wheeler foam. The arrow of time is this point explosion never going back to the point of origin. I don't think we could ever reverse time ....
Marcel, -
#837 by TheTraveller on 22 Sep, 2016 15:43
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What kind of drive is needed for that amp? Looking at this sig gen: https://windfreaktech.com/product/usb-rf-signal-generator/
The Rf amp has a 50dBm output (100W) and a gain of 50dB, so needs 1dBm of input drive. Which the indicated Rf freq gen can easily provide. Seems to be a good design. Also note the control is RS232 over USB.
This is the unit I'm using. It also functions as a spectrum scanner:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/138Mhz-4-4Ghz-Usb-Sma-Signal-Source-Signal-Generator-Simple-Spectrum-Analyzer-M-/291762565680?hash=item43ee677230:g:e~IAAOSwWntXNP~D
I suspect they all use the same or similar chip sets. -
#838 by Tellmeagain on 22 Sep, 2016 15:46
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I though Mr March was at one point intending to build a new frustum?
...
I intend to do whatever is necessary to keep developing EmDrive build and test information as open sourced as possible.
Is it possible that you post the photos of your original 8mN test? It is the one that utilized a digital scale. -
#839 by Peter Lauwer on 22 Sep, 2016 16:04
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What kind of drive is needed for that amp? Looking at this sig gen: https://windfreaktech.com/product/usb-rf-signal-generator/
That looks like an interesting alternative. But do I understand well that the resolution is 100 kHz? That would be a bit too coarse to tune a resonance with a width of a few hunderd kHz.
But in combination with a wireless USB hub, mmm, mm. Interesting.
.