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#2520 by Chrochne on 08 Nov, 2016 04:41
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Good morning everyone,
I have some very interesting news to you. It seems some newspapers know how to dig "deep" for information :-). Anyway if this is true I suspect that "second" team in China is doing their job.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289
Article also righfuly mentions that false test by China, but also points that they very likely did not lose their interest in the EmDrive unit.
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#2521 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 04:50
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There has never been a verifiable em-drive thrust. Everything I have seen shows a 100% thermal signature.
Wrong.
EW built a torsion pendulum and tested their copper frustum with and without dielectric, with force measered in both configurations. Force direction reversed with and without dielectric.
EW built a rotary test rig and tested their copper frustum with dielectric, with rotation reversingvas the frustum was reversed.
EW built a magnetron powered balance beam and tested their non dielectric Alum frustum. Weight change was measured on the scale at the other end of the balance beam.
All the frustums & test rigs verified the measurements, test rigs and frustums that Roger measured 2002 to 2006.
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#2522 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 05:03
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The reasons why not to use the X-37B have nothing to do with the size of the X-37B cargo bay. Instead they have everything to do with the fact that there are much higher priority projects for the US Air Force to use the X-37B for than to be transporting an EM Drive to Space, instead of just sending the EM Drive on a regular rocket launch.There is no overwhelming reason I know of to test the EM Drive in the X-37B, and there are many reasons why it would not be a good use of the X-37B.
Pardon? Where does that line of logic come from as it makes no sense?
The X-37B has a big cargo hold. An EmDrive is not very big or massive plus the ship has the required cryo to cool a high thrust cryo drive down.
Why do you need to use the X-37B for this?(The purpose of the X-37 B is to bring back things from orbit). The X-37B capability to bring back things from Space is a very unique capability that presently has no equal. There are several much higher priority projects (to the USAF) that can really benefit from this unique capability of the X-37B.
As an engineer that has built EmDrives, I strongly disagree.
It is VERY important to get the EmDrive back so as to evaluate how the drive ages and changes after lengthy operation in space. Interior surface change due to vac & heating, plus possible thin film delamination are just a few of the issues necessary to answer by having returned space operated EmDrives.
As you point out, it is only the X-37B that has that capability. -
#2523 by Chrochne on 08 Nov, 2016 05:04
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You're close to the truth. Those are used to mislead and deceive. R & D improvement work has never been stopped, all the information provided on this forum are carefully studied and adopted by these teams.Reading this thread is like following Alice further down the rabbit hole.
Everyday seems more and more unbelievable...but the more I read...
Boeing took the EmDrive black as did the Chinese with that BS final paper of Prof Yang. Any experienced EmDrive builder would know it was BS, which I think was her intent to send a signal.
So governments have lied as have many individuals.
Bottom line is the EmDrive has worked since Roger invented it. His theory has been through several academic and industry groups, so it is also correct.
It has taken some time for the penny to drop that the EmDrive works as Roger claims. Might take a bit more time until the theory penny drops but it will happen.
Yes it is as I suspected. I know chinese policy on those things very well, but I did not want to go public with this to endanger the research of the EmDrive in the China. I am sure those people are reading this forum. -
#2524 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 05:10
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Professor Yang did not retire, but emdrive's research and development work was handed over to another team two years agoThis is very similar information to what the IBTimes is now printing...did the IBTimes get this information from you?
I'm not their source. I have also heard this from several sources, plus you now have Oyzw telling you of other EmDrive launches and that Prof Yang did not retire. Seems he was fed false info to spread on NSF.
Your information generally agrees with that supplied by 2 other sources.
Basically the Chinese gov took her work dark and expanded the effort & team.
Thanks for also confirming that China is flying EmDrives in space. May I add that of course any sat fitted with an EXPERIMENTAL EmDrive would not use it as the primary thruster abd would have other thrusters as primary, so yes those sats would have Ion or gas thrusters. -
#2525 by Chrochne on 08 Nov, 2016 05:15
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Professor Yang did not retire, but emdrive's research and development work was handed over to another team two years agoThis is very similar information to what the IBTimes is now printing...did the IBTimes get this information from you?
I'm not their source. I have also heard this from several sources, plus you now have Oyzw telling you of other EmDrive launches and that Prof Yang did not retire. Seems he was fed false info to spread on NSF.
Your information generally agrees with that supplied by 2 other sources.
Basically the Chinese gov took her work dark and expanded the effort & team.
Thanks for also confirming that China is flying EmDrives in space. May I add that of course any sat fitted with an EXPERIMENTAL EmDrive would not use it as the primary thruster abd would have other thrusters as primary, so yes those sats would have Ion or gas thrusters.
We should also be bit careful about this topic. Only because I do not want us to endanger those people in china. We know chinese goverment do not joke around and can be quite cruel on its own people.. -
#2526 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 05:17
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Good morning everyone,
I have some very interesting news to you. It seems some newspapers know how to dig "deep" for information :-). Anyway if this is true I suspect that "second" team in China is doing their job.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289
Article also righfuly mentions that false test by China, but also points that they very likely did not lose their interest in the EmDrive unit.
Nice statement by Roger:QuoteIn the meantime Roger Shawyer is patenting a new EmDrive thruster that features a single flat superconducting plate on one end, while the other end is a unique shaped plate that is non-superconducting.
He plans to manufacture thousands of the devices as part of his joint venture with UK aerospace firm Gilo Industries Group, and hopes that the EmDrive can be used to reduce the cost and time to space, as well as powering flying cars and helping to solve the global energy crisis. -
#2527 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 05:34
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Another hypothesis by the same engineer about the use of sapphire in Shawyer's news design, that I summarize below:
First, as a side note on dielectrics: according to TheTraveller, dielectrics used by Eagleworks are PE discs and this kind of plastic dielectrics has NEVER been used by Roger Shawyer, even in its early designs. The dielectric Shawyer used in his experimental thruster, before he completely dropped those in successive hollow frustum designs, was in fact a very high Q ceramic resonator. The ceramic resonator at that time was not intended to introduce a lossy mechanism or shift the operating frequency within the frustum. It was a high Q (of around 100,000) ceramic rod resonant at 2.45 GHz with the outer end silver plated (to act as a reflective end plate) and axially adjustable in and out of the frustum until the inner end becomes resonant with the TE012 internal frequency, tuned to wave front interface to the frustum standing wave. That was completely different from the direction followed by Eagleworks with the PE discs.
Sapphire resonators
Sapphire resonators achieve enormous Q of 109 at 10 GHz frequency with low phase noise when cooled by closed cycle pulse tube cryocooler at a temperature of 6 K.
That would explain the cavity filling 5 τ of 1 second. This cavity filling time plus discharging time of total 2 seconds appears inappropriate because the YBCO together with the silver plated mirror could only reach a Q of about 106 and never reach the maximum Q value of 109. But sapphire could be excited with subharmonic frequency. Once filled, the stored energy would be fed from the subharmonic of the 10 GHz sapphire resonator, at 5 GHz or so, extending the "ringtime" (radar talk) of the frustum.
This is just an idea put in the air.
These are great ideas, and also point to why Shawyers latest patent, showing a YBCO superconductor on a sapphire substrate is....odd, as I've pointed out previously.
Sapphire is a superlative high frequency dielectric. It exhibits a very flat and stable epsilon (dielectric constant) over the frequencies of interest, and over temperature (to a point). It is somewhat commonly used to make variable VHF-UHF-uwave capacitors.
Having said that, the YBCO is INSIDE of the patented cavity, shielding the Al2O3 (sapphire) substrate from providing any dielectric effect. Unless Shawyer is relying on the poor performance of YBCO under RF conditions to "leak" (which it will) into the sapphire? Interesting idea, if so, but bass-ackwards engineering. There are much better methods of getting Q enhancement with sapphire/superconductor resonance.
@Phil, you might suggest to Roger that he retain the sapphire substrate, but apply niobium to the EXTERIOR surface, with the niobium wrapped around the sapphire disc edges so that it makes DC/RF contact with the walls of the frustum large end. The downside is that he will need helium cooling and the sapphire would have to be VERY thin, the upside is that with the proper Al2O3 thickness, he will establish Q enhancing resonance between the inductive niobium and the capacitive sapphire. He might even consider his present scheme, but with the YCBO replaced with niobium, anodized to replace the sapphire with niobium oxide (also an excellent microwave dielectric). Yes, it's a three (or 5) layer approach, and would require an oxide layer of about 3 microns (my back of the envelope calculation), but should boost Q to roughly 1x10^12 at the large end (if niobium/Al2O3 or niobium/NbO2 resonance is achieved).
>Edit: clarified superconductor/oxide layers
My understanding is that Roger/Gilo needs to use LN2 cooling as that makes very simple thrusters for say to power a paraglider. So for any market sector that can benefit from several hours of thrust as the LN2 store boils off, YBCO is the game.
BTW I've been offer YBCO with 3uOhm Rs at 3.85GHz at 77K (LN2). Can make a really nice 10^8 frustum with that! More than enough thrust to levitate. With 3 could levitate me and all the support systems for several hours. Might need to add a heated pressure suit & Oxy tank to make LEO or higher still. -
#2528 by Bob Woods on 08 Nov, 2016 05:59
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My understanding is that Roger/Gilo needs to use LN2 cooling as that makes very simple thrusters fir say to power a paraglider. So for any market sector that can benefit from several hours of thrust as the LN2 store boils off, YBCO is the game.
BTW I've been offer YBCO with 3uOhm Rs at 3.85GHz at 77K (LN2). Can make a really nice 10^8 frustum with that! More than enough thrust to levitate. With 3 could levitate me and all the support systems for several hours. Might need to add a heated pressure suit & Oxy tanks. Good luck if you try it Phil. You've worked hard over the last couple of years. And take care of yourself and follow the Doctors orders.
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#2529 by sanman on 08 Nov, 2016 06:23
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Good morning everyone,
I have some very interesting news to you. It seems some newspapers know how to dig "deep" for information :-). Anyway if this is true I suspect that "second" team in China is doing their job.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289
Article also righfuly mentions that false test by China, but also points that they very likely did not lose their interest in the EmDrive unit.
So the article claims not just China but that even the USAF is testing EMdrive using X-37B - it sounds like the info came from Shawyer himself - anyone know if this is true or false? If this is even remotely plausible, what applications would USAF see in this? Station-keeping perhaps? I assume that the farthest USAF cares to travel is still within Earth orbit, for Earth observation purposes.
Can EMdrive in principle just be powered by solar energy? Or would something more powerful like RTG be required for maneuvering within Earth's gravity well?
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#2530 by meberbs on 08 Nov, 2016 06:51
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That article reads as if they just pulled information out of this thread. It does not provide any evidence or source for it claims. It doesn't even state something like "an official who spoke on condition of anonymity", it just says "IBTimes has been informed."Good morning everyone,
I have some very interesting news to you. It seems some newspapers know how to dig "deep" for information :-). Anyway if this is true I suspect that "second" team in China is doing their job.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289
Article also righfuly mentions that false test by China, but also points that they very likely did not lose their interest in the EmDrive unit.
So the article claims not just China but that even the USAF is testing EMdrive using X-37B - it sounds like the info came from Shawyer himself - anyone know if this is true or false? If this is even remotely plausible, what applications would USAF see in this? Station-keeping perhaps? I assume that the farthest USAF cares to travel is still within Earth orbit, for Earth observation purposes.
Can EMdrive in principle just be powered by solar energy? Or would something more powerful like RTG be required for maneuvering within Earth's gravity well?
Articles having their sources directly be from the threads on this site is surprisingly common, and not just from this section. This is part of why I asked in my previous posts that we not treat rumors and random speculation about probably non-existent government emDrives as if they were facts. -
#2531 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 06:59
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This is part of why I asked in my previous posts that we not treat rumors and random speculation about probably non-existent government emDrives as if they were facts.
Fact is the EmDrive works and has done so since 2002.
Are you suggesting no government would be interested?
We do know from Roger's public statements that SPR supplied complete build data to Boeing/Phantom Works, which they built and confirmed to SPR it met contract specs. Then according to Roger, there was no more contact. Are you saying Roger's statement is not accurate? -
#2532 by ThinkerX on 08 Nov, 2016 07:14
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Might I suggest we focus our attention on known, relatively public EM Drive programs, and set the conspiracies and unverifiable claims aside?
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#2533 by meberbs on 08 Nov, 2016 07:24
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There is no conclusive evidence that the emDrive works. We have been through this cycle many times already. Unless you have conclusive evidence you can provide, then please stop repeating this claim as a fact.This is part of why I asked in my previous posts that we not treat rumors and random speculation about probably non-existent government emDrives as if they were facts.
Fact is the EmDrive works and has done so since 2002.
Are you suggesting no government would be interested?
We do know from Roger's public statements that SPR supplied complete build data to Boeing/Phantom Works, which they built and confirmed to SPR it met contract specs. Then according to Roger, there was no more contact. Are you saying Roger's statement is not accurate?
I am not saying that it didn't meet contract specs. I haven't seen the contract, but a contract for providing a prototype can be completed even if tests show that the device doesn't work, depending on the contract details. Since there was an option for a follow on contract that was not taken, it is reasonable to think that the follow on contract award would be dependent on the prototype working, and it wasn't awarded because it didn't work. I find this more reasonable than what you imply which amounts to Boeing stealing Shawyer's IP and Shawyer not suing them over it. -
#2534 by Flyby on 08 Nov, 2016 08:23
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.....
While I don't think it is meaningful to say anything about the Shawyer/Boeing deal, simply because there is way too little information publicly known, I do question your remark above.
There is no conclusive evidence that the emDrive works. We have been through this cycle many times already. Unless you have conclusive evidence you can provide, then please stop repeating this claim as a fact.
......
The new test's done by the NASA Eagleworks team may not yet have been perfect (as some were eager to point out on the reddit forum and reach the sigma 5 standard, which is considered to be proof in a scientific environment....
BUT,
it most certainly delivered such a jaw-dropping and intriguing result that it is now absolute necessary to spend more energy/money into the research this observed phenomenon. The test performed was certainly of a high enough standard to warrant additional effort. That, I'm very positive about it.
From my perspective , this leaked testing info tilted my opinion from a maybe/maybe_not (50/50) towards a "probably yes" (say 90/10). Definitive? nope, not yet, but "highly probably" for sure...
Also, the leaked info most probably did some damage to the people involved , like Eagleworks crew, but at the same time, it forces everybody into an accelerating forward direction because the only way to keep an advantage in this race is to keep improving. The more development is happening around the world the faster it will percolate into our daily lives...
So while i do not approve what Phill did ( I have a less flamboyant/assertive communication style), I do understand his motivations, especially with the bad medical news he received. In fact, it triggered a personal question for me, of what I would do if I where in his shoes...
You know, a man/woman can do strange things when faced with his/her own mortality...
The recent revelations on possible deliberate disinformation campaigns really come as punch in the face, even if I had it taken into account somewhere in the back of my head... -
#2535 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 09:02
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For sure many hardened deniers will continue to deny the combined experimental data from:
the EW atmo paper,
the EW vac paper,
the EW rotary test rig and
the EW balance beam,
which verified and confirmed what Roger measured 2002 to 2006.
But those who focus on the totality of ALL the EW test results will find a powerful result and the truth.
That is why I released ALL the EW test data, as combined with the vac results, there can be no doubt the EmDrive does work as claimed.
Time now to bring forward theory that explains ALL the test data. -
#2536 by TheTraveller on 08 Nov, 2016 09:11
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.....
While I don't think it is meaningful to say anything about the Shawyer/Boeing deal, simply because there is way too little information publicly known, I do question your remark above.
There is no conclusive evidence that the emDrive works. We have been through this cycle many times already. Unless you have conclusive evidence you can provide, then please stop repeating this claim as a fact.
......
The new test's done by the NASA Eagleworks team may not yet have been perfect (as some were eager to point out on the reddit forum and reach the sigma 5 standard, which is considered to be proof in a scientific environment....
BUT,
it most certainly delivered such a jaw-dropping and intriguing result that it is now absolute necessary to spend more energy/money into the research this observed phenomenon. The test performed was certainly of a high enough standard to warrant additional effort. That, I'm very positive about it.
From my perspective , this leaked testing info tilted my opinion from a maybe/maybe_not (50/50) towards a "probably yes" (say 90/10). Definitive? nope, not yet, but "highly probably" for sure...
Also, the leaked info most probably did some damage to the people involved , like Eagleworks crew, but at the same time, it forces everybody into an accelerating forward direction because the only way to keep an advantage in this race is to keep improving. The more development is happening around the world the faster it will percolate into our daily lives...
So while i do not approve what Phill did ( I have a less flamboyant/assertive communication style), I do understand his motivations, especially with the bad medical news he received. In fact, it triggered a personal question for me, of what I would do if I where in his shoes...
You know, a man/woman can do strange things when faced with his/her own mortality...
The recent revelations on possible deliberate disinformation campaigns really come as punch in the face, even if I had it taken into account somewhere in the back of my head...
The EW vac paper is just one set of experimental data. As I stated in my earlier post, it is the combined weight of ALL the EW experimental data that supports and lifts the vac results paper to 100/0.
Why EW did not release
The reverse thrust with no dielectric data,
The rotary test rig data,
The balance beam data,
is something I could not understand.
That test data was not classified and was paid for by US tax payers. It is very important data and it deserves to be seen and to be supportative of the vac paper. -
#2537 by Nerm999 on 08 Nov, 2016 09:33
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.....
While I don't think it is meaningful to say anything about the Shawyer/Boeing deal, simply because there is way too little information publicly known, I do question your remark above.
There is no conclusive evidence that the emDrive works. We have been through this cycle many times already. Unless you have conclusive evidence you can provide, then please stop repeating this claim as a fact.
......
The new test's done by the NASA Eagleworks team may not yet have been perfect (as some were eager to point out on the reddit forum and reach the sigma 5 standard, which is considered to be proof in a scientific environment....
BUT,
it most certainly delivered such a jaw-dropping and intriguing result that it is now absolute necessary to spend more energy/money into the research this observed phenomenon. The test performed was certainly of a high enough standard to warrant additional effort. That, I'm very positive about it.
From my perspective , this leaked testing info tilted my opinion from a maybe/maybe_not (50/50) towards a "probably yes" (say 90/10). Definitive? nope, not yet, but "highly probably" for sure...
Also, the leaked info most probably did some damage to the people involved , like Eagleworks crew, but at the same time, it forces everybody into an accelerating forward direction because the only way to keep an advantage in this race is to keep improving. The more development is happening around the world the faster it will percolate into our daily lives...
So while i do not approve what Phill did ( I have a less flamboyant/assertive communication style), I do understand his motivations, especially with the bad medical news he received. In fact, it triggered a personal question for me, of what I would do if I where in his shoes...
You know, a man/woman can do strange things when faced with his/her own mortality...
The recent revelations on possible deliberate disinformation campaigns really come as punch in the face, even if I had it taken into account somewhere in the back of my head...
The EW vac paper is just one set of experimental data. As I stated in my earlier post, it is the combined weight of ALL the EW experimental data that supports and lifts the vac results paper to 100/0.
Why EW did not release
The reverse thrust with no dielectric data,
The rotary test rig data,
The balance beam data,
is something I could not understand.
That test data was not classified and was paid for by US tax payers. It is very important data and it deserves to be seen and to be supportative of the vac paper.
Hopefully the rotary rig will be in a later paper? "The Smoking Gun"
Besides the RPM numbers (r per hour!) do you know if there is a calculation of force or acceleration from the rotary rig? I guess it would need some sort of calibration force to calculate.
I am curious how it correlates to the numbers in the current paper. I think the calculation method (eg assuming the constant slope is thermal, and subtracting it out) leaves a bit to be desired, and is attachable by skeptics, so another different measure that's says the same thing would be great as a confirmation. -
#2538 by Flyby on 08 Nov, 2016 09:44
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As far I now, EW didn't release anything yet.. you did.. :p
But...maybe they do have "other" information that was not yet shared/leaked?
So before hitting the barricades, maybe we should see what EW will indeed release?
You sure have put some pressure on them now....
Not sure yet if that is a good or bad thing...Time will tell, I suppose...
But I'll agree on the importance of the data. It does give me the confidence to set a step in your direction and confirm it does indeed have all the appearances that the EMdrive works.
I'm remaining cautious however, but that's my personal attitude in life : there are no 100% certainties..
I can only hope that those who are still extremely critical towards the EMdrive, that they spend their effort in assisting to improve the testing instead of spending their energy and time in accusing it to be "fraud" and "cooked up by crackpots"... -
#2539 by Davinator on 08 Nov, 2016 09:47
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Might I suggest we focus our attention on known, relatively public EM Drive programs, and set the conspiracies and unverifiable claims aside?
Well said. We'll start a new thread shortly, with a new rule that this thread isn't for wacky links to nonsense. EM Drive is absolutely outside of what NSF covers, but there's community members like Shell, Rodal and a number of other very good members who make it viable. That does not, however, allow for crap like "They are testing EM Drive on the X-37B", which is total nonsense and the X-37B IS what we cover here, so we'd know.
Everyday seems more and more unbelievable...but the more I read...
