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#2460 by flux_capacitor on 07 Nov, 2016 10:27
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Are we allowed to discuss what was found in the paper or is going to be removed until the release in December?
No alas, we can't discuss in details the fact Eagleworks managed to dramatically reduce and quantize any spurious mundane cause of thrust, yet still measured a consistent force in a hard vacuum two orders of magnitude higher than a perfectly collimated photon rocket.
Same thing for their ultra-low friction Cavendish rotary experiment that has been video recorded, showing rotation with all cables and power supply onboard in ambient air. A setup that, if cleverly designed, would be immune to any thermal expansion of the frustum or of the wires that could be (are) present in former experiments. For that part, we have to wait until next year (at least) since it is planned for their next test campaign.
And what about that frustum without a dielectric inside showing a measurable force, along a direction that reverses when a dielectric is present at the small end and the frequency tuned accordingly to achieve resonance in both cases! Too bad that we can't discuss this behavior.
@flux_capacitor Obviously we can't discuss the stuff in the leaked paper that's still linked to in the Next Big Future article, but is there a source for the stuff we can't discuss in your second and third paragraphs??
It was some pun from my part about the situation (but with real information in my post). To be more serious, I think we can discuss anything here, providing we don't directly link to any protected material. The discussion will be harder to follow without pictures, but we can make similar pictures from scratch if necessary. It will also be harder to follow without direct quotes of the paper, but we can express the same meanings with our own different words. When you just talk about a theater movie, or film a remake of your own, you don't infringe any copyright rules
I also suspect that some news included in the bunch of information released then deleted, especially pictures and movies, will not be discussed in the EW peer-reviewed paper, that may focus only about torsion pendulum tests.
So I think the paper will exclude any mention to an air bearing rotary test rig integrating power supply and showing plotted acceleration for hours; a teeter-totter balance with magnetron; and the very interesting new fact that an anomalous force not only still exists without a dielectric near small end, but also the fact that the force reverses when a dielectric is either placed (detected force vector big to small) or removed (vector small to big). -
#2461 by kaublezw on 07 Nov, 2016 11:01
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There seems to be a belief that no forces exist outside of the frustum, correct? Has anybody confirmed that no such forces exist. For example, has anybody placed a scale beneath or above a static frustum (but not touching it.)? Just curious.
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#2462 by Peter Lauwer on 07 Nov, 2016 12:09
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Are you telling me that the frustum is a perfect shielding no matter the power injected into the cavity?
Has this been tested or is this a general assumption? It seems to me that the effects are detected outside the cavity (pendulum etc.) and yet everyone is only looking inside the cavity ..
I certainly plan to measure signal outside cavity with measurement loop + spectrum analyzer. -
#2463 by flux_capacitor on 07 Nov, 2016 13:10
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Next Big Future picked up one of the papers posted here...
There is nothing new in the Next Big Future article.
I am sorry but NBF has the paper (first link in their article).
I saw the Next Big Future article first and downloaded the paper just in case it disappears, then I came here to see what you guys say. Is the leaked paper the same paper that will be published in AIAA’s Journal of Propulsion and Power in December? Or a draft version?
How close is the paper to the final version that will be published? Note that I'll write about this today, so thos in the know might prefer not to answer. At the same time, now that the paper is out, it will be all over the press in the next few days, there's no way to put it back in the box.
The consensus is no. It is very likely not the same paper that will appear in the AIAA journal.
At the very least, this is an "early draft;" this much was said by TheTraveller when he leaked the paper to NSF and Reddit. This means it could be anything from a trashed version to a near-copy, but the truth is likely somewhere between.
Additionally as several posts here have mentioned, much of the "leaked content" is not new, dating back to 2014-2015, and leading users to suspect that we do not have the current sum of research by Eagleworks.
I encourage everyone to give Nasa and Eagleworks the professional benefit of the doubt: let them do their jobs, we already have a scheduled release. There is no academic that wants their drafts thrown around as current work (sounds like a bad dream).
I think otherwise, that it is the real deal. First, TT never said it was an early draft, pretty much the opposite. Also remember Eagleworks' paper has been approved for publication back in late August 2016, and the leaked PDF metadata has precisely the same date. We shall see soon, only in a few weeks now. -
#2464 by Peter Lauwer on 07 Nov, 2016 13:18
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Let's not waste Sonny's money by reading the rough draft. He's paid for Open Access, so let's await the real thing.
Are you serious? Of course I'm reading it!
Who can resist that? I don't approve leaking such a paper, but now that it's on the street...
'-)
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#2465 by Rodal on 07 Nov, 2016 13:50
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Maybe China's Microwave propulsion has been sent into space.
Please provide some information supporting this rumor, at least provide what is the source of the rumor and what kind of microwave propulsion are you referring to. For example Prof. Juan Yang has been working on two kinds of microwave propulsion:
A) Conventional, well-known, old-style microwave propulsion using a propellant, she has been doing this for a long time and this is what she still has in her University profile
B) closed cavity EM Drive microwave cavity using no propellant. Prof. Yang's University profile does not feature this any longer.
If China has sent to Space a conventional, well-known, old-style microwave propulsion using a propellant, then the rumor has no significance and is potentially misleading to readers that may confuse the EM Drive with conventional microwave propulsion using a propellant, as such a microwave propulsion using a propellant is well understood in the West and it would not be any significant leap in technology, as such microwave propulsion using a propellant was developed in the West before it was investigated in China. -
#2466 by Rodal on 07 Nov, 2016 13:58
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...
Again, which kind?
I can not say too much, Professor Yang's team improved thruster, R & D team completed a ground thrust measurement, is likely to have been sent into space, a few days ago.
A) Conventional microwave propulsion using a propellant that Yang has been working on for many years. Not noteworthy, this technology is well known in the West and does not constitute any leap in technology
B) an EM Drive with no propellant, that Yang worked on for a few years, but no further news on the University website.
If you don't differentiate between A and B, your rumor is potentially very misleading as readers may interpret you as saying that an EM Drive with no propellant was sent by China into Space, when actually what may have been sent is an old-style well known microwave propulsion with propellant !!! -
#2467 by Rodal on 07 Nov, 2016 14:04
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Ha Ha? Why aren't you explicit as to what you refer to instead of people having to interpret tea leaves ?
Haha ！！do you think I am referring to the A? I have just assembled a EMDRIVE, and I have studied it for several years....
Again, which kind?
I can not say too much, Professor Yang's team improved thruster, R & D team completed a ground thrust measurement, is likely to have been sent into space, a few days ago.
A) Conventional microwave propulsion using a propellant that Yang has been working on for many years. Not noteworthy, this technology is well known in the West and does not constitute any leap in technology
B) an EM Drive with no propellant
If you don't differentiate between A and B, the rumor is potentially very misleading
And what does what you have been studying for years have to do with China sending things into Space? Are you saying that you are connected to China's Space program?
If you heard that China sent an EM Drive with no propellant into Space why don't you just state that? -
#2468 by flux_capacitor on 07 Nov, 2016 14:41
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A receiver engineer now retired, who worked during many years on the IRAM 30m radio-telescope, invented the first hybrid cryostat in 1981 (see reference attached). That simple hybrid cryostat extracted heat and cooled a device down to 2.7K, by conducting boiled helium gas. This scheme could be adapted to cool an EmDrive down to LN2 temperature instead of He at a cheeper cost, with lighter insulation and no need for the cryocooler. This would allow very high Q high Tc superconducting EmDrives, but it would also allow manifold increase of the Q in conventional copper frustums.
That engineer, who I think is not posting on NSF, has made an interesting hypothesis a few days ago on TheTraveller's own google group, about the reversed thrust when a dielectric is either present or absent in the frustum near the small end, involving dispersion/heat dissipation/electrical losses, an idea that makes me think about the notsosureofit Hypothesis and WarpTech's theory.
Eagleworks has indeed detected, for the same frustum:
- Force small to big without a dielectric.
- Force big to small with a dielectric (PE disc) at small end.
He then posits the force vector always points towards the lossiest end of the frustum. For a metallic frustum, the big end with a larger area is lossier and the vector would point small to big. Introducing a plastic dielectric would shift most of the losses within, in its location inside the frustum (small end) and would shift the vector accordingly (big to small).
Of course, other effects would come into play, like location of greatest energy within the frustum, under different EM modes.
Following that view, a new hypothesis arises regarding Shawyer's partially new superconducting EmDrive described in his latest patent application.
According to this hypothesis, that new frustum could be put within a vacuum dewar not described in the patent and entirely cooled down (cooling would not only be applied to the big superconducting end as the patent suggests). The asymmetry loss of the two ends, with a perfectly reflecting superconducting plate at one side and a non-superconducting but cooled silver mirror at the other side, plus the boiled liquid gas pumped by the cryostat, would produce an asymmetric lossy mechanism that would continuously get rid of the heat inside the frustum in order to:
- keep overall temperature low
- keep overall Q high
- keep the YBCO plate superconducting
- keep the heat most away from the YBCO plate
- introduce a continuous lossy mechanism at small end and a gradient within the frustum, with a shift in the momentum or center of mass of the EM waves, like described by notsosureofit and WarpTech (similar to the light escaping the resonant cavity of a laser through one partially reflecting mirror, except in the frustum the losses are due to ohmic heat and/or evanescent waves).
Hence a frustum that is not entirely superconducting, which would prevent dissipation (asymmetric dissipation, more exactly).
@notsosureofit, WarpTech and others: comments welcome
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#2469 by flux_capacitor on 07 Nov, 2016 14:45
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Another hypothesis by the same engineer about the use of sapphire in Shawyer's news design, that I summarize below:
First, as a side note on dielectrics: according to TheTraveller, dielectrics used by Eagleworks are PE discs and this kind of plastic dielectrics has NEVER been used by Roger Shawyer, even in its early designs. The dielectric Shawyer used in his experimental thruster, before he completely dropped those in successive hollow frustum designs, was in fact a very high Q ceramic resonator. The ceramic resonator at that time was not intended to introduce a lossy mechanism or shift the operating frequency within the frustum. It was a high Q (of around 100,000) ceramic rod resonant at 2.45 GHz with the outer end silver plated (to act as a reflective end plate) and axially adjustable in and out of the frustum until the inner end becomes resonant with the TE012 internal frequency, tuned to wave front interface to the frustum standing wave. That was completely different from the direction followed by Eagleworks with the PE discs.
Sapphire resonators
Sapphire resonators achieve enormous Q of 109 at 10 GHz frequency with low phase noise when cooled by closed cycle pulse tube cryocooler at a temperature of 6 K.
That would explain the cavity filling 5 τ of 1 second. This cavity filling time plus discharging time of total 2 seconds appears inappropriate because the YBCO together with the silver plated mirror could only reach a Q of about 106 and never reach the maximum Q value of 109. But sapphire could be excited with subharmonic frequency. Once filled, the stored energy would be fed from the subharmonic of the 10 GHz sapphire resonator, at 5 GHz or so, extending the "ringtime" (radar talk) of the frustum.
This is just an idea put in the air. -
#2470 by SeeShells on 07 Nov, 2016 15:00
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Another hypothesis by the same engineer about the use of sapphire in Shawyer's news design, that I summarize below:
It fits in many ways.
First, as a side note on dielectrics: according to TheTraveller, dielectrics used by Eagleworks are PE discs and this kind of plastic dielectrics has NEVER been used by Roger Shawyer, even in its early designs. The dielectric Shawyer used in his experimental thruster, before he completely dropped those in successive hollow frustum designs, was in fact a very high Q ceramic resonator. The ceramic resonator at that time was not intended to introduce a lossy mechanism or shift the operating frequency within the frustum. It was a high Q (of around 100,000) ceramic rod resonant at 2.45 GHz with the outer end silver plated (to act as a reflective end plate) and axially adjustable in and out of the frustum until the inner end becomes resonant with the TE012 internal frequency, tuned to wave front interface to the frustum standing wave. That was completely different from the direction followed by Eagleworks with the PE discs.
Sapphire resonators
Sapphire resonators achieve enormous Q of 109 at 10 GHz frequency with low phase noise when cooled by closed cycle pulse tube cryocooler at a temperature of 6 K.
That would explain the cavity filling 5 τ of 1 second. This cavity filling time plus discharging time of total 2 seconds appears inappropriate because the YBCO together with the silver plated mirror could only reach a Q of about 106 and never reach the maximum Q value of 109. But sapphire could be excited with subharmonic frequency. Once filled, the stored energy would be fed from the subharmonic of the 10 GHz sapphire resonator, at 5 GHz or so, extending the "ringtime" (radar talk) of the frustum.
This is just an idea put in the air.
One being the second helical antenna looks to be a close match for around 10GHz about 1/3 of the size of the main helical. I'll need to look further into this thought.
Shell -
#2471 by TheTraveller on 07 Nov, 2016 15:09
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Space race revealed: US and China test futuristic EmDrive on Tiangong-2 and mysterious X-37B plane
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289 -
#2472 by Rodal on 07 Nov, 2016 15:17
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Space race revealed: US and China test futuristic EmDrive on Tiangong-2 and mysterious X-37B plane
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289
I really question the veracity that the US AirForce is testing the EM Drive in the X-37B: we know that they are testing instead a conventional Hall Thruster using Xenon propellant.
There are good scientific and technical reasons to test the Hall Thruster in the X-37B (they have to do with examining the damage experienced by certain components in the Hall Thruster upon long-duration exposure in Low Earth Orbit, and hence why it is advantageous to recover the Hall Thruster and examine it when the X-37B returns). There is no overwhelming reason I know of to test the EM Drive in the X-37B, and there are many reasons why it would not be a good use of the X-37B.
So I take all this (particularly the IBTimes article about the X-37B testing the EM Drive) with a very skeptical grain of salt.QuoteThe Hall thrusters on the current flight use an electric field to accelerate xenon propellant, producing a small but steady thrust that’s useful for many types of spacecraft, including military communications satellites already in orbit. Brian Weeden, technical adviser for the Secure World Foundation, thinks the Air Force might also be testing the thrusters with an eye toward placing reconnaissance satellites in lower orbits, so that imaging sensors could take higher-resolution pictures of targets on the ground.
“I think the clue is how low an orbit [the X-37B] is in,” says Weeden. The spaceplane is orbiting at an altitude of about 320 kilometers (a little under 200 miles), which is lower than the International Space Station. Low orbits require more maneuvering, and therefore more fuel, to maintain. And fuel adds weight. “One of the reasons that the traditional exquisite imaging satellites are so hard to launch is because they’re big and they’re heavy,” says Weeden. Hall thrusters could enable lighter, cheaper reconnaissance satellites to be orbited.
Read more: http://www.airspacemag.com/space/spaceplane-x-37-180957777/#kvQUiMsrqOBDCRjv.99 -
#2473 by TheTraveller on 07 Nov, 2016 15:26
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I really question the veracity that the US AirForce is testing the EM Drive in the X-37B: we know that they are testing instead a conventional Hall Thruster using Xenon propellant.
Suggest you keep an eye on:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/innovation
They seem to be very active with EmDrive information and were the 1st to confirm the SPR & Gilo Universal Propulsion JV.
Wonder what Universal Propulsion would make? -
#2474 by Rodal on 07 Nov, 2016 15:33
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I really question the veracity that the US AirForce is testing the EM Drive in the X-37B: we know that they are testing instead a conventional Hall Thruster using Xenon propellant.
Suggest you keep an eye on:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/innovation
They seem to be very active with EmDrive information and were the 1st to confirm the SPR & Gilo Universal Propulsion JV.
Wonder what Universal Propulsion would make?
I note that there is a severe discrepancy between the information printed by the IBTimes ( http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289 ) and the one posted by oyzw.Quote from: oyzw on Today at 02:10 PMI heard that EMDRIVE is likely to have been mounted on a satellite to the earth synchronous orbit, but I do not know whether the boot operation.China's scientific research system has always been low-key
The Tiangong-2 has an Apogee of only 378.4 km and a Perigee of only 369.65 km, which is nowhere near the Earth synchronous orbit discussed by oyzw.
A synchronous orbit is an orbit in which the orbiting object (for example, an artificial satellite or a moon) takes the same amount of time to complete an orbit as it takes the object it is orbiting to rotate once.
A synchronous orbit need not be equatorial; nor circular. A body in a non-equatorial synchronous orbit will appear to oscillate north and south above a point on the planet's equator, whereas a body in an elliptical orbit will appear to oscillate eastward and westward.
A geostationary equatorial orbit (GEO) is a circular geosynchronous orbit in the plane of the Earth's equator with a radius of approximately 42,164 km (26,199 mi) (measured from the center of the Earth).
Hence whoever gave the information to the IBTimes, it disagrees by a factor of 100 from the information given by oyzw from China.
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#2475 by TheTraveller on 07 Nov, 2016 15:47
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Hence whoever gave the information to the IBTimes, it disagrees by a factor of 100 from the information given by oyzw from China.
Both statements say the Chinese are testing EmDrives in space. I expect IBT would have checked with other sources. It may be that the Chinese are doing BOTH experiments.
Oyzw also reported Prof Yang had retired and the Chinese were no longer funding EmDrive research? My sources suggest Prof Yang never retired and is engaged in EmDrive research, which with 2 reports of Chinese EmDrives would suggest Oyzw's earlier comments about her retirement were not correct.
Likewise the US maybe testing EmDrives along with Ion drives. -
#2476 by Monomorphic on 07 Nov, 2016 15:52
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The Tiangong-2 has an Apogee of only 378.4 km and a Perigee of only 369.65 km, which is nowhere near the Earth synchronous orbit discussed by oyzw.
A synchronous orbit is an orbit in which the orbiting object (for example, an artificial satellite or a moon) takes the same amount of time to complete an orbit as it takes the object it is orbiting to rotate once.
A synchronous orbit need not be equatorial; nor circular. A body in a non-equatorial synchronous orbit will appear to oscillate north and south above a point on the planet's equator, whereas a body in an elliptical orbit will appear to oscillate eastward and westward.
A geostationary equatorial orbit (GEO) is a circular geosynchronous orbit in the plane of the Earth's equator with a radius of approximately 42,164 km (26,199 mi) (measured from the center of the Earth).
Hence whoever gave the information to the IBTimes, it disagrees by a factor of 100 from the information given by oyzw from China.
That is why I mentioned the Shijian-17 as it was put in a geostationary orbit. It was also launched a "few days ago" - which was the language used by oyzw. -
#2477 by TheTraveller on 07 Nov, 2016 16:01
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I recall that you were the first one to post at NSF the rumor about the Chinese testing the EM Drive in orbit.
Both statements say the Chinese are testing EmDrives in space. I expect IBT would have checked with other sources. It may be that the Chinese are doing BOTH experiments.
Oyzw also reported Prof Yang had retired and the Chinese were no longer funding EmDrive research? My sources suggest Prof Yang never retired and is engaged in EmDrive research, which with 2 reports of Chinese EmDrives would suggest Oyzw's earlier comments were not correct.
Likewise the US maybe testing EmDrives along with Ion drives.
According to your source in China, approximately when was the EM Drive launched into orbit by the Chinese?
Thank you.
Don't have that info. Was just informed it had happened, which would be before I posted the info. -
#2478 by Rodal on 07 Nov, 2016 16:18
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...
I recall that you were the first one to post at NSF the rumor about the Chinese testing the EM Drive in orbit.
Both statements say the Chinese are testing EmDrives in space. I expect IBT would have checked with other sources. It may be that the Chinese are doing BOTH experiments.
Oyzw also reported Prof Yang had retired and the Chinese were no longer funding EmDrive research? My sources suggest Prof Yang never retired and is engaged in EmDrive research, which with 2 reports of Chinese EmDrives would suggest Oyzw's earlier comments were not correct.
Likewise the US maybe testing EmDrives along with Ion drives.
According to your source in China, approximately when was the EM Drive launched into orbit by the Chinese?
Thank you.
Don't have that info. Was just informed it had happened, which would be before I posted the info.
For the record, you posted this information on October 23, 2016:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1602565#msg1602565Interesting rumour just arrived.
Seems the Chinese have tested a EmDrive on station but have no idea why it works. Maybe they should talk to Roger or Gilo Industries?
Sure hope the X-37B is testing a better EmDrive on station.
This is very similar information to what the IBTimes is now printing (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/space-race-revealed-us-china-test-futuristic-emdrive-tiangong-2-mysterious-x-37b-plane-1590289)...did the IBTimes get this information from you? -
#2479 by TheTraveller on 07 Nov, 2016 16:18
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Everybody noticing the increase in EmDrive related News events hitting the circuits?
I expect Universal Propulsion (the SPR & Gilo) JV is getting ready to do a product release plus both the US and the Chinese are making it certain that the press knows they also have EmDrives.
Should be interesting.
Oh BTW my frustum fabricators knew straight away what my plans were. Was told many EmDrives are being built in China. They even suggested a few antenna tweaks.
My sources also say the Indians have an active EmDrive research program.
Roger claims 7 countries have EmDrive programs, in addition to those on his list.
