Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8  (Read 690796 times)

Offline D_Dom

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This is a thread - Thread 8 in the series - focused on objective analysis of whether the EM Drive (a cavity resonating at microwave frequencies) reported "thrust force" is an experimental artifact or whether it is a real propulsion effect  that can be used for space applications, and if so, in discussing those possible space propulsion applications.

Objective skeptical inquiry is strongly welcome.   Disagreements should be expressed politely, concentrating on the technical, engineering and scientific aspects, instead of focusing on people.   As such, the use of experimental data, mathematics, physics, engineering, drawings, spreadsheets and computer simulations are strongly encouraged, while subjective wordy statements are discouraged. Peer-reviewed information from reputable journals is strongly encouraged.  Please acknowledge the authors and respect copyrights.

Commercial advertisement is discouraged.

In order to minimize bandwidth and maximize information content, when quoting, one can use an ellipsis (...) to indicate the clipped material.

Only use the embed [img ]http://code when the image is small enough to fit within the page. Anything wider than the width of the page makes the page unreadable as it stretches it (we're working on auto reduction, but different browsers work different ways, etc.)

This link

http://math.typeit.org/

enables typing of mathematical symbols, including differentiation and integration, Greek letters, etc.

--

Links to previous threads:

Thread 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.0

Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.0

Thread 3:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.0

Thread 4:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.0

Thread 5:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38577.0

Thread 6:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39004.0

Thread 7:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.0
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Entry level thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37438.0

Baseline NSF Article:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/

This is the link to the EM Drive wiki that users are encouraged to contribute to, edit for accuracy, and build as a knowledge resource for the EM Drive:

http://emdrive.wiki
http://rfdriven.com

Chris note: Please note all posts need to be useful and worthwhile or they will be removed via moderation. This subject has large interest, with over 3.5 million thread reads and 850,000 article reads. Most people are reading and not posting, so when you post it is in front of a very large audience.

Also, and it should go without saying, amateur experiments are discouraged unless you have gained educated and/or professional advice for safety reasons.
« Last Edit: 08/24/2016 02:48 PM by Galactic Penguin SST »
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

Offline Tcarey

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Monomorphic.  Just thinking outloud. With you new enclosure and 3 axis measuring capability might it be useful to do a run with your frustum suspended by a single wire attached at the balance point?  I'm not thinking of a quantitative measurement here as much a qualitative measurement to get more of a sense of the various forces acting on the frustum. In the previous measurements everyone has constrained the frustum so that it can move in forward or backward  direction. This could be done with the attachment point moved to all three axes to look for torque on all three axes, however I suspect it might not be worth that much effort.  This test should help clarify the forces imparted by the power cables to the frustum.

Doing this test makes sense only if it is relatively easy to do with minor overhead.
« Last Edit: 08/19/2016 07:17 PM by Tcarey »

Online Mark7777777

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FWIW, emdrives.com currently redirects to the latest post in the latest page in this thread 8.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2016 06:56 AM by Mark7777777 »

Offline Monomorphic

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Monomorphic.  Just thinking outloud. With you new enclosure and 3 axis measuring capability might it be useful to do a run with your frustum suspended by a single wire attached at the balance point?  I'm not thinking of a quantitative measurement here as much a qualitative measurement to get more of a sense of the various forces acting on the frustum. In the previous measurements everyone has constrained the frustum so that it can move in forward or backward  direction. This could be done with the attachment point moved to all three axes to look for torque on all three axes, however I suspect it might not be worth that much effort.  This test should help clarify the forces imparted by the power cables to the frustum.

Doing this test makes sense only if it is relatively easy to do with minor overhead.

This would require significant changes to the current rig to accomplish. Also, the 3-axis accelerometer (748um/s2) isn't as sensitive as the Laser Displacement Sensors (3um). To put that into perspective, during some of my tests, which ran powered for up to a minute, the pendulum only moved a total of 750um (0.75mm). The primary purpose of the 3-axis multi-sensor is calibrating the torsional pendulum beam using the compass and gyroscope.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2016 12:31 PM by Monomorphic »

Offline FattyLumpkin

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Monomorphic, I don't have the funds or the know how to build a test rig. Once you are finished with your rig and testing, will you be open to testing other builds for a $ fee or other?
Do you yet know what the sensitivity and specificity is of/for your rig? Will you be building a cylindrical frustum to check for artifact et al., or?    FL

Offline Monomorphic

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Monomorphic, I don't have the funds or the know how to build a test rig. Once you are finished with your rig and testing, will you be open to testing other builds for a $ fee or other?
Do you yet know what the sensitivity and specificity is of/for your rig? Will you be building a cylindrical frustum to check for artifact et al., or?    FL

Yes, I would be willing to test other's DIY emdrive builds. I made sure that the DUT can be "hot swapped" with relative ease. Though it would probably be best to wait until we have reliable/tunable 250W solid state RF. It's really hit and miss with the magnetron mounted to the emdrive. I'm not sure I would be confident enough with those results to do open testing.

As for sensitivity, I am positive I can achieve better than 10uN, maybe even in the realm of ~2uN.

Offline FattyLumpkin

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Awesome! Can your solid state unit be tuned to an/any extent? My last sim had me at just a little bit over 2.45 GHz. I'll speak with you more about it after you're finished with all of your building and testing. What is the predicted thrust for your frustum and for your wedge designs?

Offline Shanebad

I do believe the EM drive is functional. Concidering the possibility of potentially charged particles around the sun causing the "heat ring" I think there is something in space. If it can be polarized it has mass, if it has mass, it can produce thrust. I believe the EM drive may be utilizing particles in space, however dense, to produce thrust.

Offline Monomorphic

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Awesome! Can your solid state unit be tuned to an/any extent? My last sim had me at just a little bit over 2.45 GHz. I'll speak with you more about it after you're finished with all of your building and testing. What is the predicted thrust for your frustum and for your wedge designs?

It will be able to be tuned between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.

Offline TheTraveller

Awesome! Can your solid state unit be tuned to an/any extent? My last sim had me at just a little bit over 2.45 GHz. I'll speak with you more about it after you're finished with all of your building and testing. What is the predicted thrust for your frustum and for your wedge designs?

It will be able to be tuned between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.

Mate you REALLY need to build a TE013 frustum with spherical end plates.

PLUS an automatic lowest VSWR freq tracker.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2016 02:13 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Monomorphic

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Awesome! Can your solid state unit be tuned to an/any extent? My last sim had me at just a little bit over 2.45 GHz. I'll speak with you more about it after you're finished with all of your building and testing. What is the predicted thrust for your frustum and for your wedge designs?

It will be able to be tuned between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.

Mate you REALLY need to build a TE013 frustum with spherical end plates.

Workin on it...

Offline TheTraveller

Awesome! Can your solid state unit be tuned to an/any extent? My last sim had me at just a little bit over 2.45 GHz. I'll speak with you more about it after you're finished with all of your building and testing. What is the predicted thrust for your frustum and for your wedge designs?

It will be able to be tuned between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.

Mate you REALLY need to build a TE013 frustum with spherical end plates.

Workin on it...

I can share a SPR verified TE013 spherical end plates design.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2016 02:17 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline jstepp590

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Usually I try to stay away from commenting here as I am so far out of my depth  :o. I am an IT specialist, not a engineer or physicist. However I came across a paper that I am not sure has been seen on this site before. It is a peer reviewed paper from the COMSOL company as well as several academics with a new explanation for the thrust results seen on the EMDrive. I apologize if this has been posted before, but I follow this thread a lot and have not seen it discussed yet. Regards.

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/adva/6/6/10.1063/1.4953807
« Last Edit: 08/21/2016 02:18 PM by jstepp590 »

Offline Monomorphic

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Awesome! Can your solid state unit be tuned to an/any extent? My last sim had me at just a little bit over 2.45 GHz. I'll speak with you more about it after you're finished with all of your building and testing. What is the predicted thrust for your frustum and for your wedge designs?

It will be able to be tuned between 2.4Ghz and 2.5Ghz.

Mate you REALLY need to build a TE013 frustum with spherical end plates.

Workin on it...

I can share a SPR verified TE013 spherical end plates design.

Email me the dimensions and i'll create a 3d mesh that can be used for rapid prototyping.

Offline TheTraveller

Usually I try to stay away from commenting here as I am so far out of my depth  :o. I am an IT specialist, not a engineer or physicist. However I came across a paper that I am not sure has been seen on this site before. It is a peer reviewed paper from the COMSOL company as well as several academics with a new explanation for the thrust results seen on the EMDrive. I apologize if this has been posted before, but I follow this thread a lot and have not seen it discussed yet. Regards.

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/adva/6/6/10.1063/1.4953807

Well there is the problem:

Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible.

So lets avoid consideration that the EmDrive gained momentum is at the expense of EM wave lost momentum as the internal EM wave experiences red shift from lost EM wave momentum.

Debate this all you wish as I will not engage until my data is ready to be published.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2016 02:27 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline jstepp590

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Usually I try to stay away from commenting here as I am so far out of my depth  :o. I am an IT specialist, not a engineer or physicist. However I came across a paper that I am not sure has been seen on this site before. It is a peer reviewed paper from the COMSOL company as well as several academics with a new explanation for the thrust results seen on the EMDrive. I apologize if this has been posted before, but I follow this thread a lot and have not seen it discussed yet. Regards.

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/adva/6/6/10.1063/1.4953807

Well there is the problem:

Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible.

So lets avoid consideration that the EmDrive gained momentum is at the expense of EM wave lost momentum as the internal Em wave experiences red shift from lost Em wave momentum.

Debate this all you wish as I will not engage until my data is ready to be published.

Uh actually I was not debating anything. What the paper points to is the exhaust being shot out is actually light, or specifically, photons that have become paired up with another out-of-phase photon in order to shoot out of the metal cavity and produce thrust. According to Arto Annila "Light at microwave lengths is the fuel that’s being fed into the cavity … and the EM drive exhausts backwards paired photons".
How accurate that is I am not qualified to argue or debate. I simply wanted to point out another possible theory I came across, no challenge intended.

Offline Monomorphic

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Usually I try to stay away from commenting here as I am so far out of my depth  :o. I am an IT specialist, not a engineer or physicist. However I came across a paper that I am not sure has been seen on this site before. It is a peer reviewed paper from the COMSOL company as well as several academics with a new explanation for the thrust results seen on the EMDrive. I apologize if this has been posted before, but I follow this thread a lot and have not seen it discussed yet. Regards.

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/adva/6/6/10.1063/1.4953807

Well there is the problem:

Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible.

So lets avoid consideration that the EmDrive gained momentum is at the expense of EM wave lost momentum as the internal Em wave experiences red shift from lost Em wave momentum.

Debate this all you wish as I will not engage until my data is ready to be published.

Uh actually I was not debating anything. What the paper points to is the exhaust being shot out is actually light, or specifically, photons that have become paired up with another out-of-phase photon in order to shoot out of the metal cavity and produce thrust. According to Arto Annila "Light at microwave lengths is the fuel that’s being fed into the cavity … and the EM drive exhausts backwards paired photons".
How accurate that is I am not qualified to argue or debate. I simply wanted to point out another possible theory I came across, no challenge intended.

This paper has been discussed here in depth and it has problems. Namely, the amount of thrust predicted by this theory is far below what is being detected in experiments. Another problem is that I was taught that photons that destructively interfere return to the source, not pass through solid metal. 


Offline dustinthewind

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Monomorphic.  Just thinking outloud. With you new enclosure and 3 axis measuring capability might it be useful to do a run with your frustum suspended by a single wire attached at the balance point?  I'm not thinking of a quantitative measurement here as much a qualitative measurement to get more of a sense of the various forces acting on the frustum. In the previous measurements everyone has constrained the frustum so that it can move in forward or backward  direction. This could be done with the attachment point moved to all three axes to look for torque on all three axes, however I suspect it might not be worth that much effort.  This test should help clarify the forces imparted by the power cables to the frustum.

Doing this test makes sense only if it is relatively easy to do with minor overhead.

This would require significant changes to the current rig to accomplish. Also, the 3-axis accelerometer (748um/s2) isn't as sensitive as the Laser Displacement Sensors (3um). To put that into perspective, during some of my tests, which ran powered for up to a minute, the pendulum only moved a total of 750um (0.75mm). The primary purpose of the 3-axis multi-sensor is calibrating the torsional pendulum beam using the compass and gyroscope.

I like your measurement device.  I think you could increase the sensitivity if you use the swing method.  I think basically you just remove much of the damping on the pendulum, find the resonant frequency of the pendulum/thruster, and synch your thrust to constructively add to that freuquency.  The maximum amplitude of displacement is a function of the energy stored in the pendulum system over time, so any thrust there will be energy stored in the system till the energy lost to heat matches the energy going into the system.  Minimizing the energy lost to heat in the form of damping make it more of a battery for stored energy and is why I suggested removing the damping fluid. 

Any DC components such as (DC heat) or constant DC magnetic/electric fields are eliminated from measurements with such a system.  Measurement would be of the two maximum displacements peaks from its osculation.  I posted the solution for maximum displacement a while back and can look it up if needed.  It was for a unidirectional sinusoidal force being applied to the pendulum.

I'll look up the previous post, here it is:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1558493#msg1558493
« Last Edit: 08/21/2016 02:52 PM by dustinthewind »

Offline M.LeBel

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  "Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible."  OK,  when you fall under gravity, you do not expel any exhaust!
Right?   This is because the falling object is in a time rate differential i.e. the rate of time slows down toward Earth.

This is a logical causal structure. This is what drives gravity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. Things tend to exist more (and be found) where the rate of time (1/T) is slower. The York Time is in fact a description not of spacetime contraction/expansion but an indication of the structure of the rate of time; slower in front (pull) and faster at the back (push) giving you motion and direction.

I don't know if this help but this is what everybody is trying to achieve  .. in simple terms.

Marcel,


Offline TheTraveller


  "Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible."  OK,  when you fall under gravity, you do not expel any exhaust!
Right?   This is because the falling object is in a time rate differential i.e. the rate of time slows down toward Earth.

This is a logical causal structure. This is what drives gravity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. Things tend to exist more (and be found) where the rate of time (1/T) is slower. The York Time is in fact a description not of spacetime contraction/expansion but an indication of the structure of the rate of time; slower in front (pull) and faster at the back (push) giving you motion and direction.

I don't know if this help but this is what everybody is trying to achieve  .. in simple terms.

Marcel,

What I can tell you is there is a red shift of the internal EmDrive EM waves as they transfer momentum to the accelerating EmDrive. So momentum is conserved.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

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