Author Topic: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC  (Read 37379 times)

Offline The Roadie

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Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« on: 08/04/2016 05:00 PM »
Discussed this morning on FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/spacexgroup/permalink/10154451922741318/

Not sure what they call it internally, but it's a repurposed Orbital Transport System they bought at GSA auction for around $37K.

Photo taken from public viewpoint and permission obtained by me from a source who wishes no personal credit
"A human being should be able to...plan an invasion..conn a ship..solve equations, analyze a new problem..program a computer, cook a tasty meal.."-RAH

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #1 on: 08/04/2016 05:04 PM »
About time someone snapped that pic! ;D

That OTS has some massive history to its name!

Offline Scylla

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #2 on: 08/04/2016 05:22 PM »
Stephen C. Smith ‏@SpaceKSCBlog
Meet the @SpaceX transporter used for moving a landed Falcon 9. Parked this morning outside @NASAKennedy Pad 39A.
https://twitter.com/SpaceKSCBlog
I reject your reality and substitute my own--Doctor Who

Online rocketguy101

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #3 on: 08/04/2016 05:23 PM »
Hopefully they don't call it FTS ... that has another meaning  ;)
David

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #4 on: 08/04/2016 05:29 PM »
I bet the mass of the adapter and the F9 stage is less than an Orbiter

Offline lars.lauritsen.1

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #5 on: 08/04/2016 05:37 PM »
Wow that is so awesome 😎 👍

Sendt fra min E2303 med Tapatalk


Offline Wolfram66

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #6 on: 08/04/2016 05:42 PM »
Here's pics from it's previous life
NASA.gov


From Space.Com


 ::) ::) :D

Online abaddon

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #7 on: 08/04/2016 05:42 PM »
I bet the mass of the adapter and the F9 stage is less than an Orbiter
Wouldn't that be a very safe bet?

Offline vicarofdidley

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #8 on: 08/04/2016 06:09 PM »
 It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Offline Bargemanos

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #9 on: 08/04/2016 06:14 PM »
F9 Speeder bike?

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #10 on: 08/04/2016 06:16 PM »
For an acronym, how about the bent acronym FAlcon Transport System, or FATS?

:)
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Online Mike_1179

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #11 on: 08/04/2016 06:21 PM »
I bet the mass of the adapter and the F9 stage is less than an Orbiter
Wouldn't that be a very safe bet?

Do the math and it's not quite so obvious - steel is heavy. Quick back of the envelope estimate

Assumptions
Orbiter Dry Mass: 68 mt

Falcon 9 1st stage dry mass: 23 mt
Length: 45 m

Steel supports
There are two large I-beams that make up that support structure. These beams are the same height as the hood of that white truck is off the ground. For simplicity, call those beams 1 m in depth flange-to-flange and about 0.3 m wide. A steel beam that size is around 300 kg per meter of length. Two I-beams this size that run the length of the stage would be 45m x 300kg/m x 2 sides = 27 mt. There are holes along its length which could reduced this mass by at most 25% - so lets go with 20 mt for those beams.

There are I-beams as cross members between the large beams. I count 12 of them, they are likely as long as the stage is wide: 3.6 m. These cross members are about 1/3 the height of the main beams (.03 m height x 0.1m wide flange) , so they would weigh about 30 kg/m. 3.6 m x 30kg / m x 12 = 1.2 mt

So overall structure is between 20 and 25 mt. Falcon 1st stage is 23 mt. Just under 50 mt compared to 68 mt for Shuttle. It's closer than I would have thought.



Online Chris Bergin

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #12 on: 08/04/2016 07:01 PM »
It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Oh come on lads, I can't be the only person to like that post! ;D

Offline Semmel

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #13 on: 08/04/2016 07:10 PM »
It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Oh come on lads, I can't be the only person to like that post! ;D

Dont look at us! Thats a problem of your forum... it only allows likes every 120s.. and the average person reading speed is much faster than from the ones before that also should be liked. I actually had to wait after finishing your post to be able to like it. I suspect that limitation does not apply to you so you dont notice how infuriating it is some times...

Online Lar

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #14 on: 08/04/2016 07:14 PM »
It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Oh come on lads, I can't be the only person to like that post! ;D
If you would just lift the 120 seconds between likes for mods I'd be all over likeing that!
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Online abaddon

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #15 on: 08/04/2016 07:35 PM »
See, make someone a mod and it goes to their head.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #16 on: 08/04/2016 07:50 PM »
It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Other names from Iain Banks that might fit:

Trade Surplus
The Ends Of Invention
Screw Loose
Cargo Cult
Prime Mover
Only Slightly Bent
Size Isn't Everything
Just Passing Through
Recent Convert    
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The
Heavy Messing
Fate Amenable To Change
Someone Else's Problem
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick
Awkward Customer
Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
You Naughty Monsters
Don't Try This At Home
You'll Clean That Up Before You Leave
Contents May Differ



Offline IntoTheVoid

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #17 on: 08/04/2016 09:22 PM »
If you would just lift the 120 seconds between likes for mods I'd be all over likeing that!
Is that
a) "If you would just (lift the 120 seconds between likes) for mods...", so you can like things faster; or
b) "If you would just lift the 120 seconds between (likes for mods)...", so everyone can like you faster?

Offline ulm_atms

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #18 on: 08/05/2016 01:06 AM »
Now SpaceX just needs to buy the 747 that the shuttle used and make a large runway at McGregor.  8)

Then they could say they are now re-flying the cores for testing....lol

It is nice to see equipment that was used for important things in the past for spaceflight now being used for important things now and into the future!!  Also shows that NASA ground equipment was always top notch without having to be replaced due to use.  How many ships/rockets have those crawlers seen in their lifetime?  Just goes to show when you build it well...things will last a LONG time.  I also think SpaceX got quite a deal at only 37K.

And please...someone from SpaceX reading this...please give this guy/gal below a golden ticket tour and use his/her name suggestion for the OTS. 

It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Unfortunally...I did drop something...in my keyboard...when I read that name.  :o

Offline CameronD

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #19 on: 08/05/2016 01:34 AM »
It is nice to see equipment that was used for important things in the past for spaceflight now being used for important things now and into the future!!  Also shows that NASA ground equipment was always top notch without having to be replaced due to use. How many ships/rockets have those crawlers seen in their lifetime?  Just goes to show when you build it well...things will last a LONG time.  I also think SpaceX got quite a deal at only 37K.

Seriously?!?  What it shows is that SpaceX were able to buy it for $1/kilo or thereabouts.. Kudos to them for saving it from the scrap yard.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #20 on: 08/05/2016 01:38 AM »
Does the new "Falcon Transport" allows the core to be carry with the legs extended? Is there enough ground clearance.

Online Mike_1179

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #21 on: 08/05/2016 01:48 AM »
Does the new "Falcon Transport" allows the core to be carry with the legs extended? Is there enough ground clearance.


Using the pick-up truck for scale, almost certainly not. The overall top of steel is maybe a meter higher than the height of the truck. The side of the core can't be more than 3 meters off the ground.

So post-landing Ops could be:
1. Jack up stage on hold down points
2. Remove legs
3. Use crane to rotate and place on transporter
4. Tow stage on transporter to HIF
5. Use HIF crane to remove from transporter
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 01:50 AM by Mike_1179 »

Offline yokem55

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #22 on: 08/05/2016 03:45 AM »
Is this just a replacement for the k-mag? Or will it also be able to assist with taking the stage down to horizontal?

Online meekGee

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #23 on: 08/05/2016 03:52 AM »
Does the new "Falcon Transport" allows the core to be carry with the legs extended? Is there enough ground clearance.


Using the pick-up truck for scale, almost certainly not. The overall top of steel is maybe a meter higher than the height of the truck. The side of the core can't be more than 3 meters off the ground.

So post-landing Ops could be:
1. Jack up stage on hold down points
2. Remove legs
3. Use crane to rotate and place on transporter
4. Tow stage on transporter to HIF
5. Use HIF crane to remove from transporter

Agreed.  This doesn't look at first blush like a "derector" - just a carrier.
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Offline Scylla

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #24 on: 08/05/2016 04:14 AM »
Couple more pics from Stephen C. Smith.
http://spaceksc.blogspot.com/2016/08/on-road-again.html
I reject your reality and substitute my own--Doctor Who

Offline nacnud

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #25 on: 08/05/2016 04:31 AM »
There are lots of culture ship names that I think would be fun for this. I like

Not Invented Here
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Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #26 on: 08/05/2016 04:56 AM »
My favorite Banks title for this is I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.

Works for me!

Oh, and if ULA needs one for Vulcan eventually ... there's always I Blame The Parents  :o

Online guckyfan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #27 on: 08/05/2016 05:34 AM »
Agreed.  This doesn't look at first blush like a "derector" - just a carrier.

Yes but it looks massive enough to add one later when the landing frequence justifies it.

Online meekGee

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #28 on: 08/05/2016 07:27 AM »
Agreed.  This doesn't look at first blush like a "derector" - just a carrier.

Yes but it looks massive enough to add one later when the landing frequence justifies it.
That would be grand.  The part with the cranes is a bit of a hack...
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #29 on: 08/05/2016 08:14 AM »
Agreed.  This doesn't look at first blush like a "derector" - just a carrier.

Yes but it looks massive enough to add one later when the landing frequence justifies it.
That would be grand.  The part with the cranes is a bit of a hack...

Someone (Jim, I think) called such a device, simply, a "retriever." Nice and simple, and covers all ops, including rotating the stage horizontal.

Agree about the cranes, although I think we'll see them used for some time yet. After all, that's the way they handle the stage at McGregor.

Another thing which would speed up the flow at the landing pad would be redesigned legs that can be retracted or be quickly removed.  A retriever could be designed to lower the stage with the legs extended but it would need to be designed for considerable ground clearance. Better to deal with them with the vehicle vertical.

So you could imagine a sequence something like this:
1. Retriever approaches the stage with a small platform plate carrying jacks which it places beneath the vehicle,
2. Jacks extend, engage with the hold downs and lift the vehicle clear of the ground,
3. Legs retracted or removed.
4. Strongback on the retriever swings vertical and its clamp engages with the top of the stage.
5. Strongback and base platform rotate the vehicle to horizontal.
6. Go home.

Kind of the reverse of pad erection, really. Of course there would be other safing ops besides the basic handling.
Douglas Clark

Online Hobbes-22

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #30 on: 08/05/2016 09:00 AM »
Is this just a replacement for the k-mag? Or will it also be able to assist with taking the stage down to horizontal?

The company is called Kamag.

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #31 on: 08/05/2016 09:44 AM »

Other names from Iain Banks that might fit:

Trade Surplus - fitting for a used item
The Ends Of Invention
Screw Loose
Cargo Cult
Prime Mover
Only Slightly Bent - fitting for a used item
Size Isn't Everything
Just Passing Through
Recent Convert    
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The
Heavy Messing
Fate Amenable To Change - fitting for an item that might otherwise be scrapped
Someone Else's Problem
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick - fitting for Falcon FT's stick-like proportions
Awkward Customer
Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory - Needs to be saved for some future SpaceX creation even more surprising than an ASDS
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
You Naughty Monsters
Don't Try This At Home
You'll Clean That Up Before You Leave fitting for filthy, re-entered stage
Contents May Differ

« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 09:44 AM by iamlucky13 »

Offline flyright

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #32 on: 08/05/2016 02:00 PM »

...

So you could imagine a sequence something like this:
1. Retriever approaches the stage with a small platform plate carrying jacks which it places beneath the vehicle,
2. Jacks extend, engage with the hold downs and lift the vehicle clear of the ground,
3. Legs retracted or removed.
4. Strongback on the retriever swings vertical and its clamp engages with the top of the stage.
5. Strongback and base platform rotate the vehicle to horizontal.
6. Go home.

Kind of the reverse of pad erection, really. Of course there would be other safing ops besides the basic handling.

I think prior to this sequence it would still be necessary to have a crane attach the cap and stabilize the stage prior to having the retriever lift it.
Or maybe the retriever could somehow perform the same function as part of step 4. (move step 4 to be step 2)

Offline Alastor

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #33 on: 08/05/2016 02:14 PM »
So you could imagine a sequence something like this:
1. Retriever approaches the stage with a small platform plate carrying jacks which it places beneath the vehicle,
2. Jacks extend, engage with the hold downs and lift the vehicle clear of the ground,
3. Legs retracted or removed.
4. Strongback on the retriever swings vertical and its clamp engages with the top of the stage.
5. Strongback and base platform rotate the vehicle to horizontal.
6. Go home.

Kind of the reverse of pad erection, really. Of course there would be other safing ops besides the basic handling.

Given the weight of the stage and position of the different CoGs, in all likelihood, once you reach step 5 of your list, what is realistically more likely to happen is the retriever going vertical  when you attempt to lower the stage. Then, as a step 6, the new CoG of the stage+retriever assembly being out of the support polygon defined by the jacks, the assembly will topple (provided the stage doesn't magically refuel ant decide to liftoff), and kaboom.

There is one very important thing that all those suggesting the retriever could easily replace the cranes missed : The polygon of support of two cranes working together is huge, and the stage is located right in the middle. To make it possible for the retriever to replace them, you'd need one hell of a counterweight or a hold-down as there certainly is for the erector.

Offline vicarofdidley

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #34 on: 08/05/2016 02:19 PM »

And please...someone from SpaceX reading this...please give this guy/gal below a golden ticket tour and use his/her name suggestion for the OTS. 

It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Unfortunally...I did drop something...in my keyboard...when I read that name.  :o

I'll happily accept anything SpaceX want to offer me!
Sorry about the keyboard!!  :-\

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #35 on: 08/05/2016 02:20 PM »
Agreed.  This doesn't look at first blush like a "derector" - just a carrier.

Yes but it looks massive enough to add one later when the landing frequence justifies it.

It might be too massive.  The frame replaces all the Kamag vehicles in the previous transport method.  There is no way to rotate the existing frame to vertical on the OTS.  Another frame would be required with the appropriate hydraulics.  So take a similar frame and pin it at the end of the existing frame and rotate it vertical.  Add clamps and attached a F9 first stage to it.  If you look at the OTS, it has a "short" wheel base when compared to the stage frame, and it is inboard some distance from the hinge point of the second frame with the F9 S1 clamped to it.  I don't think it would be stable.    There needs to be jacks/outriggers near the hinge point.
The second frame has to be lighter than the existing one for this to work because of loading as shown earlier
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 02:24 PM by Jim »

Offline Wolfram66

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #36 on: 08/05/2016 02:47 PM »
It'll have a name rather than an acronym with SpaceX

How about "Of Course I Won't Drop It"?   ???

Other names from Iain Banks that might fit:

Trade Surplus
The Ends Of Invention
Screw Loose
Cargo Cult
Prime Mover
Only Slightly Bent
Size Isn't Everything
Just Passing Through
Recent Convert    
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The
Heavy Messing
Fate Amenable To Change
Someone Else's Problem
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick
Awkward Customer
Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
You Naughty Monsters
Don't Try This At Home
You'll Clean That Up Before You Leave
Contents May Differ


My tops
Trade Surplus
Prime Mover
Just Passing Through
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick [I like, but a little too much cheek?]

Offline Wolfram66

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #37 on: 08/05/2016 02:58 PM »
Agreed.  This doesn't look at first blush like a "derector" - just a carrier.

Yes but it looks massive enough to add one later when the landing frequence justifies it.
That would be grand.  The part with the cranes is a bit of a hack...

or is this related to Falcon Heavy assembly and transport. IDK how they will assemble the triple core.
This from the DeltaIVHeavy process

Nasa.Gov


UniverseToday.com


MadeInAlabama.com

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #38 on: 08/05/2016 03:20 PM »
Delta IV transporter is the opposite.  It has wheels at both ends and is detectable.  The front end can be used to move upper stages and encapsulated payloads.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 03:21 PM by Jim »

Online Mike_1179

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #39 on: 08/05/2016 03:22 PM »

or is this related to Falcon Heavy assembly and transport. IDK how they will assemble the triple core.
This from the DeltaIVHeavy process


Based on the width of the HIF, I remember someone saying Falcon Heavy will be assembled on the TE.

1. Bring empty TE into HIF
2. Use HIF crane to lift one cores into TE one at a time
3. Attach cores together
4. Roll TE to pad

And now I've way off topic here.

A relevant question - why did SpaceX need to buy this instead of using what they had done for transporting used stages the last few times? Is it just cheaper than renting the service of a rigger?

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #40 on: 08/05/2016 03:25 PM »

A relevant question - why did SpaceX need to buy this instead of using what they had done for transporting used stages the last few times? Is it just cheaper than renting the service of a rigger?

It isn't just the last few times after landing.  It is every time a first stage leaves Building AO to go to the hangar.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 03:26 PM by Jim »

Online Mike_1179

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #41 on: 08/05/2016 03:44 PM »

It isn't just the last few times after landing.  It is every time a first stage leaves Building AO to go to the hangar.

Wasn't aware they were using Building AO for stage storage / processing. So the comments (years ago) about the stages being too long for Building AO weren't accurate? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30385.msg1026216#msg1026216

Or is only used for temporary storage, processing is done elsewhere.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 03:45 PM by Mike_1179 »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #42 on: 08/05/2016 03:46 PM »
It's not "I Said, I've Got A Big Stick", it's I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.  And I'm not sure we can give it a Culture ship name until they install an autonomous driving system.

p.s. (does the [size] tag not work on this forum?)

p.p.s.  This actually made me pull the book off the shelf and look up the quote.
Two characters in the book are discussing Culture ship names:
Quote
  'I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.'
  'Sorry?'
  'It's called, I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.  You have to say it quietly.  When you write it, it's in small type.  An OU [Offensive Unit], as you might imagine'.
  'Oh, right.'
  'Probably my favourite.  I think that's just the best.'

« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 04:24 PM by gongora »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #43 on: 08/05/2016 03:50 PM »

It isn't just the last few times after landing.  It is every time a first stage leaves Building AO to go to the hangar.

Wasn't aware they were using Building AO for stage storage / processing. So the comments (years ago) about the stages being too long for Building AO weren't accurate? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30385.msg1026216#msg1026216

Or is only used for temporary storage, processing is done elsewhere.

I believe that the building - the bay itself - was modified a bit to handle the longer stages.

Offline douglas100

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #44 on: 08/05/2016 03:53 PM »

....There is one very important thing that all those suggesting the retriever could easily replace the cranes missed : The polygon of support of two cranes working together is huge, and the stage is located right in the middle. To make it possible for the retriever to replace them, you'd need one hell of a counterweight or a hold-down as there certainly is for the erector.

Good point. I'd actually thought of outrigger arms like Jim mentions above. I imagined the retriever looking something like this:
Douglas Clark

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #45 on: 08/05/2016 04:06 PM »

Good point. I'd actually thought of outrigger arms like Jim mentions above. I imagined the retriever looking something like this:



Good idea, but those outriggers would interfere with the legs.  If the retriever goes in after landing, it has to avoid the legs.  Then grab the stage and allow for leg retraction or removal.

Offline John Alan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #46 on: 08/05/2016 04:07 PM »
As it stands... this rig just replaces the 'for hire' rig shown in Jim's post with a rig they now own...
It's should pay for itself in time... moving stages around the cape...
And it only as built can carry a stage set on top by two cranes...

However...
All this talk does bring up a question...  ???
Does an empty S1 really need a strong-back to lay it down...  :-\

I mean the hold downs are rated to hold ALOT...
And it's empty... nothing on top... center of gravity is down near the bottom...

The big issue I see in the overall big picture is they can't get the unit up on the barge and under the rocket...
They will always likely use one crane to put the beanie cap on and steady the rocket...

However...  ;)
If a transporter was designed to take the place of the base used now to service the stage, defuel, remove legs..
Deploys the mobile version of a base and waits for the crane to set S1 it on...
Has it's own set of base legs set 45* from the rocket legs to steady it against any winds expected...
One leg is actually the transporter... 2 to each side at 90*
S1 sets on with legs 45* to the transporter direction...
Once ready... use the suspension to rock the base end up higher off the ground...
Retract the steady legs... then hydraulically rotate the base up 90* and lay the rocket down with no strong back

In a pinch... leave the S1 legs on... rock it back to clear and take the whole mess to cover...
You would never get that down the roads with the stoplights and wires hanging...
But if they had a building close by...

Just thinking out loud...  ::)   ;)
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 04:21 PM by John Alan »

Offline douglas100

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #47 on: 08/05/2016 04:11 PM »
Yeah, I think I underestimated the leg span in that drawing.
Douglas Clark

Offline Alastor

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #48 on: 08/05/2016 04:14 PM »

....There is one very important thing that all those suggesting the retriever could easily replace the cranes missed : The polygon of support of two cranes working together is huge, and the stage is located right in the middle. To make it possible for the retriever to replace them, you'd need one hell of a counterweight or a hold-down as there certainly is for the erector.

Good point. I'd actually thought of outrigger arms like Jim mentions above. I imagined the retriever looking something like this:

That kind of system could work too.
But as noted by Jim, I think it may require to build a new retriever from scratch if you start modifying it that deeply. There is only so much equipment it can support.

That doesn't mean we won't ever see such a system, of course. I think it is possible that they consider the current equipment to be experimental and go on to build something with more functionalities when rapid reuse becomes a thing.

Then, in that case, I imagine if they ever build such a system, they will build it so that it can grab the stage with the legs attached and move it away from the pad/barge so that the landing platform is available while they work on the stage.
They may even want to make it so that the servicing of the stage can be done while attached to the truck and just have several retrievers at each pad available.

That way, they could process several stages at the same time in kind of a chain process, so that instead of having the workers and equipment moving around, they have the stages moving from workshop to workshop (chemicals clearing, legs removal, inspection and telemetry acquisition, cleaning, various refurbishment, repainting, legs attachment, ...).

But again, if they do so, I believe it to be a "very" long term project, and it probably wont involve this vehicle (even though "very long term" is very relative, when it comes to SpaceX).

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #49 on: 08/05/2016 04:18 PM »

They may even want to make it so that the servicing of the stage can be done while attached to the truck and just have several retrievers at each pad available.

That way, they could process several stages at the same time in kind of a chain process, so that instead of having the workers and equipment moving around, they have the stages moving from workshop to workshop (chemicals clearing, legs removal, inspection and telemetry acquisition, cleaning, various refurbishment, repainting, legs attachment, ...).


No, they still would put them on dollies like these.  Retrievers would cost too much
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 04:20 PM by Jim »

Offline Alastor

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #50 on: 08/05/2016 04:26 PM »

They may even want to make it so that the servicing of the stage can be done while attached to the truck and just have several retrievers at each pad available.

That way, they could process several stages at the same time in kind of a chain process, so that instead of having the workers and equipment moving around, they have the stages moving from workshop to workshop (chemicals clearing, legs removal, inspection and telemetry acquisition, cleaning, various refurbishment, repainting, legs attachment, ...).


No, they still would put them on dollies like these.  Retrievers would cost too much

Do you see any deep reason that a truck couldn't replace the dollies ?

I mean, dollies are certainly cheaper, so once all the operations that need the stage to be vertical are done, sure, that makes a free retriever to service another stage. So there is certainly a big financial incentive here. But dollies are not self propelled, as far as I know, so if they need the stage to move around a lot, or even go vertical, wouldn't it make sense to keep the retriever ?

(I agree my scenario is going quite far away from the current processing flow. But if they have let's say a dozen stage in processing at any time in the far future, it may make sense to have a stage moving from building to building rather that require an insanely large building that can handle all stages)

EDIT : I didn't see the part where you talked about cost. I guess you edited that in in the meantime. Then I guess I agree with you. There is a huge incentive in terms of cost to use the dollies at the moment.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 04:31 PM by Alastor »

Online Hobbes-22

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #51 on: 08/05/2016 05:11 PM »


....There is one very important thing that all those suggesting the retriever could easily replace the cranes missed : The polygon of support of two cranes working together is huge, and the stage is located right in the middle. To make it possible for the retriever to replace them, you'd need one hell of a counterweight or a hold-down as there certainly is for the erector.

I don't think they need that much of a counterweight.
If they place the pivot point above the last axle, the vehicle has to be able to lift the empty stage (30-40t?) plus its frame (10t?) at a distance of say, 5 m.
A 5-ton counterweight at the front of the vehicle (50 m away) is enough to counteract that. And that's ignoring the weight of the vehicle itself (easily 30t), and without jacks supporting the back end, both of which would reduce the amount of counterweight needed.


Offline Joffan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #52 on: 08/05/2016 05:15 PM »
While I could support using a Banks ship name, there is an obvious acronym: Falcon Transport Wagon FTW.
Max Q for humanity becoming spacefaring

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #53 on: 08/05/2016 05:19 PM »
so if they need the stage to move around a lot, or even go vertical, wouldn't it make sense to keep the retriever ?


They don't need to go vertical again until launch.  And as for move around?  Everything would be done in the same facility on the dollies.


 But if they have let's say a dozen stage in processing at any time in the far future, it may make sense to have a stage moving from building to building rather that require an insanely large building that can handle all stages)


Not really.  There isn't much work that can be separated.  Most everything can be done in one place, no need to move the stage.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 05:22 PM by Jim »

Offline manoweb

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #54 on: 08/05/2016 06:08 PM »
Is the massive white piece part of the auction or was it acquired separately by SpaceX? I am trying to figure out is the 37k$ price includes everything or not.

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #55 on: 08/05/2016 06:48 PM »
Is the massive white piece part of the auction or was it acquired separately by SpaceX? I am trying to figure out is the 37k$ price includes everything or not.

The white part is an Spacex addition.

Offline John Alan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #56 on: 08/05/2016 06:53 PM »
I guess what they really need at the Cape is a taller building to store and refurbish S1's in...
5 rocket lanes wide or so... same as building at 39... just much taller...
Tall enough with overhead traveling cranes to clear an S1 stood up vertically plus say 30ft...
Lined on both sides with walk thru fixed bases that stages can be stored vertically on securely...
Support areas, storage areas, etc behind bases and on the other side of the main walls both sides...
Catwalks up top both sides to assist with installing/removing beanie caps as needed...
Catwalks on the bases to secure and unsecure stages... elevator at far end to reach top or bottom catwalks...
One big end door with two lanes used for road trucks bringing in new or taking away used...
Also used to load and unload stages from this new FTS or any variations that follow...
An open area to stand up or lay stages down using two of many overhead cranes...
Rest is shop area to do refurb and swap out components if needed...

I can picture this shot... taken from the far end top catwalk just off the elevator...
50 spaces for 50 stages (25 a side) and about 1/2 in use... new, refurbs, and sooty ones...
Semi truck backing in a stage from Tx while RTS parked next to it is ready to load a refurb going to 40 for reuse...
Several stages laid down on rotary fixtures being worked on in the lower foreground...
And in the center bay.. a refurb was just pulled from along the wall and is starting to be turned to lay it down on the FTS...

 8)
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 07:03 PM by John Alan »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #57 on: 08/05/2016 07:35 PM »
It's not "I Said, I've Got A Big Stick", it's I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.  And I'm not sure we can give it a Culture ship name until they install an autonomous driving system.

Given Tesla's self driving technology, don't see why not. And one of the big motivations for self driving vehicles was to do large logistical support trucks to avoid casualties from IED's, so moving big munitions around on a AF base sounds very desirable/supportable.  In that case though, the name Slightly Bent might be more applicable if not for the fear that the software might have a few teething issues ...

Quote
p.p.s.  This actually made me pull the book off the shelf and look up the quote.
Two characters in the book are discussing Culture ship names:
Quote
  'I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.'
  'Sorry?'
  'It's called, I Said, I've Got A Big Stick.  You have to say it quietly.  When you write it, it's in small type.  An OU [Offensive Unit], as you might imagine'.
  'Oh, right.'
  'Probably my favourite.  I think that's just the best.'
Thank you. It's also partly why said same. Do miss the colorful Iain Banks stories and metaphors. RIP.

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #58 on: 08/05/2016 08:25 PM »
I guess what they really need at the Cape is a taller building to store and refurbish S1's in...
5 rocket lanes wide or so... same as building at 39... just much taller...
Tall enough with overhead traveling cranes to clear an S1 stood up vertically plus say 30ft...
Lined on both sides with walk thru fixed bases that stages can be stored vertically on securely...
Support areas, storage areas, etc behind bases and on the other side of the main walls both sides...
Catwalks up top both sides to assist with installing/removing beanie caps as needed...
Catwalks on the bases to secure and unsecure stages... elevator at far end to reach top or bottom catwalks...
One big end door with two lanes used for road trucks bringing in new or taking away used...
Also used to load and unload stages from this new FTS or any variations that follow...
An open area to stand up or lay stages down using two of many overhead cranes...
Rest is shop area to do refurb and swap out components if needed...

I can picture this shot... taken from the far end top catwalk just off the elevator...
50 spaces for 50 stages (25 a side) and about 1/2 in use... new, refurbs, and sooty ones...
Semi truck backing in a stage from Tx while RTS parked next to it is ready to load a refurb going to 40 for reuse...
Several stages laid down on rotary fixtures being worked on in the lower foreground...
And in the center bay.. a refurb was just pulled from along the wall and is starting to be turned to lay it down on the FTS...

 8)

Why vertical?  Just keep them horizontal until launch. 
The building is cheaper. 

Doesn't this photo say it all. 
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40857.msg1566313#msg1566313
Just a couple of manlifts and access stands are all that is needed.
Bring in one end, work on them and roll them out the other end and take them to the HIF at the pad.

And it could be done in multiple buildings, Spacex could use any unused buildings at the Cape.  After all, there isn't just one hangar at an airport for all the planes.

And if they have 50 stages, then something must be wrong with the reuse process.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 08:33 PM by Jim »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #59 on: 08/05/2016 09:38 PM »


....There is one very important thing that all those suggesting the retriever could easily replace the cranes missed : The polygon of support of two cranes working together is huge, and the stage is located right in the middle. To make it possible for the retriever to replace them, you'd need one hell of a counterweight or a hold-down as there certainly is for the erector.

I don't think they need that much of a counterweight.
If they place the pivot point above the last axle, the vehicle has to be able to lift the empty stage (30-40t?) plus its frame (10t?) at a distance of say, 5 m.
A 5-ton counterweight at the front of the vehicle (50 m away) is enough to counteract that. And that's ignoring the weight of the vehicle itself (easily 30t), and without jacks supporting the back end, both of which would reduce the amount of counterweight needed.

Every heavy vehicle with a crane or boom has hydraulically actuated stabilizer legs. Just put a few of those down near the pivot end, and no counterweight is needed at all... the weight of the vehicle is more than enough thanks to that huge lever arm.

Offline John Alan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #60 on: 08/05/2016 09:51 PM »
I guess what they really need at the Cape is a taller building to store and refurbish S1's in...
5 rocket lanes wide or so... same as building at 39... just much taller...
Tall enough with overhead traveling cranes to clear an S1 stood up vertically plus say 30ft...
Lined on both sides with walk thru fixed bases that stages can be stored vertically on securely...
Support areas, storage areas, etc behind bases and on the other side of the main walls both sides...
Catwalks up top both sides to assist with installing/removing beanie caps as needed...
Catwalks on the bases to secure and unsecure stages... elevator at far end to reach top or bottom catwalks...
One big end door with two lanes used for road trucks bringing in new or taking away used...
Also used to load and unload stages from this new FTS or any variations that follow...
An open area to stand up or lay stages down using two of many overhead cranes...
Rest is shop area to do refurb and swap out components if needed...

I can picture this shot... taken from the far end top catwalk just off the elevator...
50 spaces for 50 stages (25 a side) and about 1/2 in use... new, refurbs, and sooty ones...
Semi truck backing in a stage from Tx while RTS parked next to it is ready to load a refurb going to 40 for reuse...
Several stages laid down on rotary fixtures being worked on in the lower foreground...
And in the center bay.. a refurb was just pulled from along the wall and is starting to be turned to lay it down on the FTS...

 8)

Why vertical?  Just keep them horizontal until launch. 
The building is cheaper. 

Doesn't this photo say it all. 
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40857.msg1566313#msg1566313
Just a couple of manlifts and access stands are all that is needed.
Bring in one end, work on them and roll them out the other end and take them to the HIF at the pad.

And it could be done in multiple buildings, Spacex could use any unused buildings at the Cape.  After all, there isn't just one hangar at an airport for all the planes.

And if they have 50 stages, then something must be wrong with the reuse process.

My experience with farm pole barns and industrial steel frame buildings is the roof and floor is the largest cost.
Grain bins and silos same story... Go smaller and up is the cheapest volume to put up...
As you could store a S1 in a 20 ft square on the floor standing vertically... or 400 sq ft...
Laying down is what... 160 x 20 ft square... or 3200 sq ft... (I'm assuming S1 is 147ft tall - IIRC)
In the space of one S1 laying down... you can store 8 stages standing up along a wall...

Your photo... exactly my starting point... just make the building with a 180+ft high bay height...
Take the side two stages out and replace each one with 8 racks to stand stages up vertically... same space..
Take the other two stages shown out and make that two bays to back two trucks or the RTS in... to load or unload...
In that area shown in that camera frame... they can store 16 stages and handle two wide vehicles at once,,,
Call that the front bay... First of 3 bays in this 500 ft long whatever it is wide and 200+ft high with roof tall structure

Middle bay... 16 more racks along the walls... Middle area to lay down and work on 2 stages.
Back bay... no storage racks... main refurb area... looks just like that but 4 stages being worked on laying down.

So in one building...
Store 32 stages... not have to move any to get to a certain one you need out...
Work on up to 6 stages at once in a manner just like you described and they do now...

In fact.. to add to the original idea...
Build this refurb building on the west side of LC13 (LZ-1)
Truck doors facing inland toward the road.. Front bay...
Back work bay has another bay with a tall door facing toward the landing pads and the Ocean...
Just inside the door centered is a base to hold a rocket... the transfer base...
Outside is a slab with three hard stands in the ground like at the port...
Launch a FH and RTLS all three cores... no sweat...
Use the crawler crane to move all three stages from the pads to the three hardstands...
Defuel and make safe...
Use same crane to swing each stage inside to the transfer base...
Use the overhead crane to move each stage to a storage rack...
Close door and resume normal activities...  :)

Ok... 50 was too many...  :-[
But I always say in grain bins and farm buildings... room for more is always good... plan for worst case...

 8)   ;)
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 09:58 PM by John Alan »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #61 on: 08/05/2016 10:17 PM »
Processing a stage while vertical is more complex, a man lift that reaches 50 m is far more expensive and time-consuming to run than one that reaches 5 m (which would be more than enough to access the highest point of a horizontal stage).
While adding height to a building is cheap, a building rated for a gantry crane that can lift 30 tons and has rails at 50+m up is not cheap.

Offline John Alan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #62 on: 08/05/2016 11:20 PM »
Again... I will attempt to clarify my postings above for others...  >:(

All work is to be done to stages with them LAYING DOWN like they do now...
Stages NOT being worked on... are stood back up and PARKED on a open storage stand along the wall...

I never said work was to be done on stages while vertical... did I?
The top catwalk is just for someone to go up and spot and assist in installing/removing a beanie cap...
The lower catwalks around and along the storage stands are to reach the hold down latches safely...
NO need for a man lift higher then 20 ft in this building...

My thinking is get it all under one roof... workspace and storage
I can see them getting done with a stage and it's pouring rain outside...  :P
Or "I need the one in the back behind 3 other stages stored over in that hanger"...  ::)

I see separate gantry cranes used at work daily...they use two to pick up and turn large items...
Our largest are 100 ton beasts... 3 of em... 'A' bay is 100ft wide and 1000+ ft long...
All 3 are Compounds with two separate movable gantry hooks on each one...
In theory... 'A' bay could pick up a 1000 ft long 50 ft across object in the middle and at both ends...
Then roll it over 180 degrees with each lift...  :o

There are 100+ more smaller ones... 2 to 40 ton... spread across the 1,000,000+ sq ft building...
Picking up stuff and turning it 90 or 180 degrees is not hard with two gantry cranes...
Standing a rocket up or laying it down inside the building is a simple 90 degree roll maneuver...
Assuming max hook height is taller then the item to be turned...  ;)
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 12:45 AM by John Alan »

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #63 on: 08/06/2016 12:43 AM »

Stages NOT being worked on... are stood back up and PARKED on a open storage stand along the wall...

My thinking is get it all under one roof... workspace and storage


Why?  That is just more unnecessary handling (2 extra crane lifts). Just leave them as.
When they are horizontal there is access all the time.

Workspace and storage can be horizontal with no need for catwalks or any upperlevels. 

And 32 is still too many
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 12:48 AM by Jim »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #64 on: 08/06/2016 12:47 AM »

While adding height to a building is cheap, a building rated for a gantry crane that can lift 30 tons and has rails at 50+m up is not cheap.

Add in hurricane rated.

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #65 on: 08/06/2016 01:04 AM »
And 32 is still too many

My thinking is total stages for FH and F9 fleet to have on hand for the two pads at the cape...

Lets drop it to 16 storage spots (one bay) and jump to 8 spots (two bays) for refurb then,,,

Two ship sets of in use FH plus room for one new set,,, that 9 cores...
F9... 2 new core spots... 4 working swap spots... always try and have one open spot.. 16 total then

I still think more is better however...  ;)
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 01:07 AM by John Alan »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #66 on: 08/06/2016 05:05 AM »
And 32 is still too many

But they will likely accumulate that many before they have convinced their customers of reuse.

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #67 on: 08/06/2016 07:44 AM »
You have to putt it on the facebook page ! It's brillant !

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #68 on: 08/06/2016 10:23 AM »
Is it just me or does this thing look a bit overbuilt for F9? First BFR hardware, anybody?

Offline Jarnis

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #69 on: 08/06/2016 12:37 PM »
I think it is just you (and you grossly underestimate the size of the BFR)

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #70 on: 08/06/2016 01:33 PM »
Is it just me or does this thing look a bit overbuilt for F9? First BFR hardware, anybody?

I added a red circle to match the inner radius of curvature of the blue support ring giving an approximate idea of the size of the booster relative to the transporter.

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #71 on: 08/06/2016 02:00 PM »
The transporter is 2.44 m wide at the front, so that diameter looks about right for a F9.

transporter stats


Length 106 Feet 6 Inches

Width 20 Feet at rear, 16 Feet-8 Inches in middle, 8 Feet at front

Height 5 Feet-3 Inches minimum to 7 Feet-3 Inches maximum
Engine    335 H.P. V12, Air Cooled

Wheels 76

Turning Radius 66 Feet

Weight-Empty 167,000 Pounds

Weight-Gross 327,000 Pounds

Speed Unloaded 13 MPH

Max Speed Loaded 5 MPH
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 02:32 PM by Hobbes-22 »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #72 on: 08/06/2016 03:07 PM »
Is it just me or does this thing look a bit overbuilt for F9? First BFR hardware, anybody?

It's actually a bit undersized for F9 according to an onsite source on R****t who says the front end of the stage overhangs the transporter.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 03:09 PM by Kabloona »

Offline John Alan

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #73 on: 08/06/2016 03:16 PM »
And 32 is still too many

But they will likely accumulate that many before they have convinced their customers of reuse.

Agreed... That was my thinking in giving up twp repair stalls to gain 16 more storage spots...

The overall idea... is have the ability to 'make room' on the floor when needed... but only as needed...
They should only store a stage to make room for another...
And if put up...only take it down when it's needed again...

Is it just me or does this thing look a bit overbuilt for F9? First BFR hardware, anybody?

It's actually a bit undersized for F9 according to an onsite source on R****t who says the front end of the stage overhangs the transporter.

My opinion... the front overhang may be on purpose... time will tell...
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 03:27 PM by John Alan »

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #74 on: 08/06/2016 04:07 PM »
Of course, it is on purpose. The front overhang would be the top of the stage.  There is no need to support the stage at the very end.  See the pics of the previous transports.   That nixes your ideas.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 04:08 PM by Jim »

Offline mfck

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #75 on: 08/06/2016 04:21 PM »
Is it just me or does this thing look a bit overbuilt for F9? First BFR hardware, anybody?

It's actually a bit undersized for F9 according to an onsite source on R****t who says the front end of the stage overhangs the transporter.

It is not by chance that I made my remark looking at it en face. But yeah, four times the diameter might be too much. We don't really know what length BFR is, afaik

Edit: to clarify, the blue part is obviously F9 sized. I was looking at the white I-beams
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 04:24 PM by mfck »

Offline vicarofdidley

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #76 on: 08/06/2016 09:18 PM »
I have changed my mind on the name for the new transporter:

"I can't believe it's not butter"

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #77 on: 08/06/2016 09:19 PM »
And 32 is still too many

But they will likely accumulate that many before they have convinced their customers of reuse.
I think people overestimate customer's reluctance to fly on a reused boosters.  The real issue is how long until SpaceX is confident in their qualification and how many more tweaks (if any) are required to improve surviving reentry.

I think at some point soon SpaceX will start disassembling boosters they don't intent to refly.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Okie_Steve

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #78 on: 08/07/2016 01:35 AM »
Was an s1 ever tested to failure in compression? If they start disassembling thing like accordioned engine landed stages it might provide interesting data to crush one before recycling it. Mental image of giant coke can crusher ...

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #79 on: 08/07/2016 03:13 AM »
Mental image of giant coke can crusher ...
Mental image of a giant boot on vertical stage, with a toe tapping ever so gently on the side ...

Offline gregpet

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #80 on: 08/09/2016 02:19 AM »
Will this be able to make runs out to Port Canaveral? Do you think it is street legal?

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #81 on: 08/09/2016 03:06 AM »
Will this be able to make runs out to Port Canaveral? Do you think it is street legal?

Seems to have similar characteristics to the KAMAG they have used in the past (self propelled at low speeds, lots of axles to spread the load) so it would be a little surprising if they weren't allowed to use it.

Does anyone know if this vehicle can be towed at higher speeds like they did with the KAMAG?

Offline rpapo

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #82 on: 08/09/2016 10:10 AM »
...lots of axles to spread the load...
In fact, the axle loading with an empty falcon on it is probably quite low by commercial standards.  I suspect a normal gravel or steel hauler is harder on the road surface.
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #83 on: 08/09/2016 10:38 AM »
Empty weight is 70 t, plus 30 t for the Falcon and 10t for the steel frame, That's 11t per axle, over the weight limit for much of the US. Unless there's an exception for having 8 tires per axle.

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #84 on: 08/09/2016 11:34 AM »
Will this be able to make runs out to Port Canaveral? Do you think it is street legal?
>
Does anyone know if this vehicle can be towed at higher speeds like they did with the KAMAG?

Towed? According to this it has a 335 HP air cooled V-12.

http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/nasafact/transportersold.htm

Quote
Orbiter Transporter Statistics

Length 106 Feet 6 Inches

Width 20 Feet at rear, 16 Feet-8 Inches in middle, 8 Feet at front

Height 5 Feet-3 Inches minimum to
7 Feet-3 Inches maximum

Engine 335 H.P. V12, Air Cooled

Wheels 76

Turning Radius 66 Feet

Weight-Empty 167,000 Pounds

Weight-Gross 327,000 Pounds

Speed Unloaded 13 MPH

Max Speed Loaded 5 MPH
DM

Online Hobbes-22

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #85 on: 08/09/2016 11:41 AM »
The Kamag modular trailer can be fitted with a hydraulic power pack to make it self-propelled at low speeds, but it can also be towed by a standard tractor at highway speeds.

The question was if that is possible for the Orbiter Transporter. My guess is it isn't, because that wasn't necessary for its original purpose, and it would require extra equipment.

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #86 on: 08/09/2016 01:43 PM »
Will this be able to make runs out to Port Canaveral? Do you think it is street legal?

It had to go on public streets at VAFB

Online envy887

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #87 on: 08/09/2016 03:47 PM »
Empty weight is 70 t, plus 30 t for the Falcon and 10t for the steel frame, That's 11t per axle, over the weight limit for much of the US. Unless there's an exception for having 8 tires per axle.

It has 19 axles (9 sets of 2-axle groups, and a single axle in the front). Its max gross weight is 367,000 lb, which (evenly distributed) is 9.6 tons per axle and 19.3 tons per 2-axle group. It would need to be permitted as overweight and oversize, but shouldn't be a problem on most roads.

Offline CT Space Guy

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #88 on: 08/27/2016 02:24 PM »
I wonder if anyone has insight into the history of these type of vehicles?
Is this some technology developed for or by NASA then commercialized by others like KAMAG
I don't know of anyone besides KAMAG that is making vehicles like this. I am really wondering if this is another industrial opportunity missed by US company's after the technology was developed here?

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #89 on: 08/27/2016 03:51 PM »

Is this some technology developed for or by NASA then commercialized by others like KAMAG
I don't know of anyone besides KAMAG that is making vehicles like this. I am really wondering if this is another industrial opportunity missed by US company's after the technology was developed here?

a.  No, these type vehicles existed before NASA used them

b.  The Orbiter transporter was built by an Italian company not KAMAG.

Offline DOCinCT

Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #90 on: 08/27/2016 06:17 PM »
Think this video answers the question of road legal, self-propelled etc.

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #91 on: 08/27/2016 06:26 PM »
Think this video answers the question of road legal, self-propelled etc.


There were no questions

Offline Clf

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #92 on: 08/27/2016 06:51 PM »
b.  The Orbiter transporter was built by an Italian company not KAMAG.

It's  Cometto , from Borgo San Dalmazzo , Cuneo

http://www.cometto.com/


Edit/Lar: fix quotes
« Last Edit: 08/28/2016 05:43 PM by Lar »

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #93 on: 08/27/2016 08:27 PM »
Edit: had to make a few corrections

I wonder if anyone has insight into the history of these type of vehicles?
Is this some technology developed for or by NASA then commercialized by others like KAMAG
I don't know of anyone besides KAMAG that is making vehicles like this. I am really wondering if this is another industrial opportunity missed by US company's after the technology was developed here?

Kamag and several others build special vehicles for the heavy haulage industry. Both for special transports over public roads, and for internal transports.

Kamag and Scheuerle are German companies. Nicolas is (was) French, is now part of the same conglomerate as Kamag and Scheuerle. Cometto is Italian. These four are the big players in this market.

These days, they often use a more-or-less standardized design axle that allows 360 steering, hydraulic leveling and hydrostatic propulsion. These are compact units that can be placed side-by-side under a standard-width trailer (2.5 m wide).
These were pioneered in the late 1960, with all four companies building various customized transporters for e.g. transporting ship sections using variations of this idea.

Around 1983 heavy haulage company Stoof in the Netherlands contracted Scheuerle to build a series of self-propelled modular transporters (SPMT) using this design. This was a radical departure from traditional heavy haulage, which used passive (no steering, propulsion or suspension) dollies.
The steering makes the SPMT maneuverable, the leveling helps stability and the hydrostatic propulsion means you no longer have to rely on a few tractors to move the entire rig - with only a few driven axles, that ran into limitations. You just attach a power pack to the SPMT and you can drive all the wheels in the combination.


The SPMT (as seen on the Kamag used by SpaceX for on-road transports) can be linked up in pretty much any configuration, capable of moving thousands of tons.



The same axle design is still used on custom chassis like the Shuttle Orbiter transporter, the rig used to transport radio telescopes at the ALMA array, and e.g. the Cometo transporters used in Kourou:


 
« Last Edit: 08/31/2016 09:38 AM by Hobbes-22 »

Offline CT Space Guy

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #94 on: 08/29/2016 01:34 AM »
Thanks for the answers everyone

Offline Jim

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #95 on: 08/30/2016 01:31 PM »
I wonder if anyone has insight into the history of these type of vehicles?
Is this some technology developed for or by NASA then commercialized by others like KAMAG
I don't know of anyone besides KAMAG that is making vehicles like this. I am really wondering if this is another industrial opportunity missed by US company's after the technology was developed here?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41032.msg1574725#msg1574725

Online DaveS

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #96 on: 07/02/2017 11:38 PM »
I'm in need of some help with my 3D model of the Orbiter Transporter System (OTS) which is now owned/operated by SpaceX as the Falcon 9 first stage transporter. The help I'm I need is in terms of photos, mainly of the drivers cab interior (dash) and the various electronic boxes on the exterior of the transporter. You can see screenshots of my work here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nxf8nh5ai47byqo/AAAijzpOtApeckEUWZUTvLhRa?dl=0

It's all part of my effort to create highly detailed models of all Launch Complex 39 facilities and transporters.
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Offline TripD

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #97 on: 07/03/2017 02:18 AM »
Sigh.  Getting great photo reference is the Holy Grail for stuff like that.  :-\

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Re: Falcon Transport System seen finally at KSC
« Reply #98 on: 07/03/2017 03:17 AM »
Sigh.  Getting great photo reference is the Holy Grail for stuff like that.  :-\
Very true. I'm very grateful to the L2 section as it has provided some very useful references. So for me it's a mix of L2/public references.
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