The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)

[JCRM]

https://www.bis-space.com/2018/01/14/20102/current-topics-in-rocket-propulsion-an-open-source-conference

This is tomorrow (Saturday) - any questions? I'm not technical so I may fail to ask them properly.  Maybe someone better will be there?

Mike Hood – Test Facility, Lead Engineer & Russ Payne – Chief Design Engineer – Reaction Engines – SABRE TF1 – Development of the SABRE Demonstrator Test Facility

This presentation will look at the current development of the SABRE engine and the construction of its unique test facility SABRE TF1, at Westcott Venture Park.

I'd hoped to go, but a 9 week old baby is cramping my style...

As the current test plans have been discussed previously, I would ask "If the announced investments go through, will there be plans to add oxygen facilities to TF1"

[john smith 19]

https://www.bis-space.com/2018/01/14/20102/current-topics-in-rocket-propulsion-an-open-source-conference

This is tomorrow (Saturday) - any questions? I'm not technical so I may fail to ask them properly.  Maybe someone better will be there?

Mike Hood – Test Facility, Lead Engineer & Russ Payne – Chief Design Engineer – Reaction Engines – SABRE TF1 – Development of the SABRE Demonstrator Test Facility

This presentation will look at the current development of the SABRE engine and the construction of its unique test facility SABRE TF1, at Westcott Venture Park.

I'd hoped to go, but a 9 week old baby is cramping my style...

As the current test plans have been discussed previously, I would ask "If the announced investments go through, will there be plans to add oxygen facilities to TF1"

Congratulations on the baby.
It's also a very good question.
I'd really like to see a flight vehicle but if you can demonstrate the air breathing to rocket transition on the ground then a test stand upgrade is probably going to be cheaper.

It's a sensible, pragmatic and cost effective route and a good use of (some of?) the money

But, y'know, still, a flight vehicle. Maybe a significant part of the trajectory. Proving out the whole altitude/pressure path plan. T/O and landing. Propellant loading procedures. Air traffic control procedures. Water cooled brakes? Etc. 
<sigh>

[t43562]

Current Topics in Rocket Propulsion – An Open Source Conference
Saturday 14th April 2018

Mike Hood – Test Facility, Lead Engineer & Russ Payne – Chief Design Engineer – Reaction Engines – SABRE TF1 – Development of the SABRE Demonstrator Test Facility

The Synergetic Air Breathing Rocket Engine (SABRE) is a class of combined cycle engines that have the potential to revolutionise aerospace propulsion. SABRE burns hydrogen fuel in air-breathing mode up to speeds in excess of Mach 5, then switches to a high-performance rocket mode that utilises on-board liquid oxygen. Novel light-weight compact heat exchangers allow efficient thermodynamic energy exchange between engine components via a helium loop, which results in an attractive combination of high thrust to weight and specific impulse in air-breathing mode.

One of the unique features of SABRE is that much of its air-breathing operation can be tested on the ground. Testing an engine as unique as SABRE however, requires a custom-made facility. Conventional air propulsion facilities require large air feeds and conventional fuel systems; such a test facility can be fully enclosed if noise controls require it. This enclosed approach is not, however, compatible with hydrogen-fuelled systems. Conventional rocket test stands are designed to handle hydrogen fuels safely but lack the air inflow systems of a conventional air-breathing test facility and must be located remotely to accommodate the noise levels they generate during test.

This presentation will look at the current development of the SABRE engine and the construction of its unique test facility SABRE TF1, at Westcott Venture Park.

[JCRM]

First the bare bones information

Thanks!

That thermodynamic concept looks like a SABRE 4 (separate airbreathing and rocket combustion chambers but shared nozzle)

[t43562]

First the bare bones information

Thanks!

That thermodynamic concept looks like a SABRE 4 (separate airbreathing and rocket combustion chambers but shared nozzle)

They're apparently testing technologies from the range of engines called SABRE 4.  SABRE 2,3 were variations of SABRE 1 but 4 is a family of engines.   All the components that are being tested can be scaled to a certain degree apparently.
You should hear this in the audio.

[t43562]

remaining pics:

[Matthew Ak43]

Is it safe to say now that there will definitely be a functional working SABRE engine in a few years?

[john smith 19]

Is it safe to say now that there will definitely be a functional working SABRE engine in a few years?

Yes.

Putting it into an FTV is going to be tougher.

[Hankelow8]

A few other points from the talk today at Westcott.

Only air-breathing tests will be carried out at Westcott no lox will be used at the site. Full rocket tests will be carried out at a more remote site like Spadeadam.

The test engine is modular in construction and various sections can be tested individually, I guess they will use the testing phase
to iron out problems before a full flight engine is built.

A question was asked about ITAR and they said all data is protected from ITAR. A separate company in the USA has been set up to test hot air intake only and in no way does this compromise any SABRE design work at all.

Alan Bond is now working as a consultant for Reaction Engines.

The test stand will be available for other companies to use.

It seems as though Westcott is alive again rising  phoenix like back to the rocket engine testing  of the fifties and sixties

[Matthew Ak43]

Thanks Hank.

Very interesting info.

[Star One]

A few other points from the talk today at Westcott.

Only air-breathing tests will be carried out at Westcott no lox will be used at the site. Full rocket tests will be carried out at a more remote site like Spadeadam.

The test engine is modular in construction and various sections can be tested individually, I guess they will use the testing phase
to iron out problems before a full flight engine is built.

A question was asked about ITAR and they said all data is protected from ITAR. A separate company in the USA has been set up to test hot air intake only and in no way does this compromise any SABRE design work at all.

Alan Bond is now working as a consultant for Reaction Engines.

The test stand will be available for other companies to use.

It seems as though Westcott is alive again rising  phoenix like back to the rocket engine testing  of the fifties and sixties

I’d be amazed if they can escape ITAR longer term especially with DARPA involved and now with Boeing as well.

[JCRM]

[recording]

It was good to hear Alan still taking an interest. Thanks for asking my question. I'm not surprised, but disappointed it'll be an airreathing onlyfacility. I'm intrigued by he notion it'll be useful to others in that state. - interesting times maybe.

Is it safe to say now that there will definitely be a functional working SABRE engine in a few years?

No. If all goes well, there will be a demonstration engine, which has all the componetns of a functional SABRE engine core working together - which has been the plan since that was funded by the UK government in 2016. While this would be functional and working in the technical sense I very much dout it would be considered so in a practical sense (could I stick this on a vehicle and go somewhere)- which is how I interpreted your question.

If there are no show-stoppers, then hopefully funding will be forthcoming for a fulll engine. OTS parts are being Frankensteined together to make the demonstrator, so apart from the precoolers very little of the demonstrator will fly.

A question was asked about ITAR and they said all data is protected from ITAR. A separate company in the USA has been set up to test hot air intake only and in no way does this compromise any SABRE design work at all.

Reaction Engines Inc wasn't set up to test the hot air intake only (did you mean heat exchangers, or is this a different company you're discussing?) but to interact at arms length passing requiremnet to the UK company where design work occurs outside of ITAR. It does seem a very difficult having your cake and eating it arrangement.

It seems as though Westcott is alive again rising  phoenix like back to the rocket engine testing  of the fifties and sixties

Except very quietly, so as not to upset the neighours. Westcott has been testing REL engines for over a decade, and LEROS engines have been developed tehre since the 90s

[Hankelow8]

[recording]

It was good to hear Alan still taking an interest. Thanks for asking my question. I'm not surprised, but disappointed it'll be an airreathing onlyfacility. I'm intrigued by he notion it'll be useful to others in that state. - interesting times maybe.

Is it safe to say now that there will definitely be a functional working SABRE engine in a few years?

No. If all goes well, there will be a demonstration engine, which has all the componetns of a functional SABRE engine core working together - which has been the plan since that was funded by the UK government in 2016. While this would be functional and working in the technical sense I very much dout it would be considered so in a practical sense (could I stick this on a vehicle and go somewhere)- which is how I interpreted your question.






If there are no show-stoppers, then hopefully funding will be forthcoming for a fulll engine. OTS parts are being Frankensteined together to make the demonstrator, so apart from the precoolers very little of the demonstrator will fly.

A question was asked about ITAR and they said all data is protected from ITAR. A separate company in the USA has been set up to test hot air intake only and in no way does this compromise any SABRE design work at all.

Reaction Engines Inc wasn't set up to test the hot air intake only (did you mean heat exchangers, or is this a different company you're discussing?) but to interact at arms length passing requiremnet to the UK company where design work occurs outside of ITAR. It does seem a very difficult having your cake and eating it arrangement.

It seems as though Westcott is alive again rising  phoenix like back to the rocket engine testing  of the fifties and sixties

Except very quietly, so as not to upset the neighours. Westcott has been testing REL engines for over a decade, and LEROS engines have been developed tehre since the 90s

As far as I am aware Reaction Engines Inc at this stage will only be testing the pre-cooler under hot intake conditions. I suppose the question you have to ask is, why did they need to go to the USA to do this form of testing, is there a hidden agenda going on!.

[JCRM]

As far as I am aware Reaction Engines Inc at this stage will only be testing the pre-cooler under hot intake conditions. I suppose the question you have to ask is, why did they need to go to the USA to do this form of testing, is there a hidden agenda going on!.

Because they'll pay for it. REL's usual hdden agenda. If it progresses to phase 3, they might pay for an airbreathing test vehicle

[john smith 19]

Reaction Engines Inc wasn't set up to test the hot air intake only (did you mean heat exchangers, or is this a different company you're discussing?) but to interact at arms length passing requiremnet to the UK company where design work occurs outside of ITAR. It does seem a very difficult having your cake and eating it arrangement.

That's about the only way to avoid ITAR  contamination  of REL IP while a) Being eligible to USG funding and b) Access to US test facilities not owned by REL Inc.

Otherwise any piece of hardware built by REL needs USG approval before they can sell it, even if USG funding was not involved in its actual design or build.

This is an issue whey you're a) totally dependent on outside funding and b) have a relatively low public profile. 

[john smith 19]

Because they'll pay for it. REL's usual hdden agenda. If it progresses to phase 3, they might pay for an airbreathing test vehicle

Yes.

REL's survival is in part due to it's ability to form partnerships with a lot of organizations, allowing both sides to learn a bit more and gain a bit more funding in the process.

[t43562]

As far as I am aware Reaction Engines Inc at this stage will only be testing the pre-cooler under hot intake conditions. I suppose the question you have to ask is, why did they need to go to the USA to do this form of testing, is there a hidden agenda going on!.

Because they'll pay for it. REL's usual hdden agenda. If it progresses to phase 3, they might pay for an airbreathing test vehicle

It should be in the recording but this question was asked and answered exactly that it's because they are getting money to do it. No hidden agendas. If one was there I would have thought that bit of information couldn't have failed to attact one's attention.

[john smith 19]

It should be in the recording but this question was asked and answered exactly that it's because they are getting money to do it. No hidden agendas. If one was there I would have thought that bit of information couldn't have failed to attact one's attention.

Where is this recording? Is it publicly accessible?

[JCRM]

It should be in the recording but this question was asked and answered exactly that it's because they are getting money to do it. No hidden agendas. If one was there I would have thought that bit of information couldn't have failed to attact one's attention.

Where is this recording? Is it publicly accessible?

upthread the first attachment.

[john smith 19]

As far as I am aware Reaction Engines Inc at this stage will only be testing the pre-cooler under hot intake conditions. I suppose the question you have to ask is, why did they need to go to the USA to do this form of testing, is there a hidden agenda going on!.

Because they'll pay for it. REL's usual hdden agenda. If it progresses to phase 3, they might pay for an airbreathing test vehicle

It should be in the recording but this question was asked and answered exactly that it's because they are getting money to do it. No hidden agendas. If one was there I would have thought that bit of information couldn't have failed to attact one's attention.

Firstly thanks for the recording. I've just heard it. It's now clear this is the demonstrator for the SABRE 4 cycle, and the various engines that can be designed off of it. The only other question I would have liked to have answered was wheather this is going to demonstrate the E/D nozzle, or wheather that's one of the modules that's not needed. 

The explanation of ITAR was quite interesting.  The idea that a precooler is sitting in a test cell in Colorado but has not actually been "exported" to the US is just odd but I hope it gets it tested sooner rather than later.

Reading between the lines there are quite a lot of people who will be very interested if these tests are successful, and it's not clear to what extent Skylon is (or is not) still a key design focus for the company.  It is clear they are quite a long way from a flight vehicle.