The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)

[JCRM]

The idea of pre-cooled jet engines goes back as far as the 50's; it's obviously not easy to manufacture the HX. Maybe others will eventually develop an indigenous capability to manufacture them but that's unlikely in the short-term.

Not easy, but not particularly difficult either. Should there be a compelling defence application then I'm sure a few tens of millions and a few years will be sufficient. If three engineers in a shed and a PhD student could demonstrate the core principle in the 90s, a funded lab should be able to replicate.

It's not worth investigating now, because there's no demonstrated application, or even a demonstrated engine. Once an engine is demonstrated, then it becomes a problem for which it is known there is a solution, so investing in finding a solution is less risky.

I was trying to dance around the issue but the technological transfer to China would probably not go down well and let’s leave it at that.

All the technology in SABRE one could discover by looking at an engine one had bought has pretty much been published, to prevent it being kept secret - e.g. length, diameter, wall thickness and material of the precoolers, frost control technology, compression ratios, fuel mix, etc. REL have been pretty open about their expertise being the manufacture and integration. Almost as if they had had experience of a government blocking them in the past and had decided to avoid that outcome this time around. The new management at REL might not be so forthcoming though.

If the UK government want to change the law to block exports of the engine to someone wishing to build a Skylon-like airframe, REL could just license their patents to whoever wants to build it - but the alternative engine manufacturers would be obliged to devise their own manufacturing techniques - assuming the UK also blocks REL from consulting on manufacturing processes. They still get the engine, the UK loses an export opportunity and gains a competitor.

[Citizen Wolf]

Short video discussing REL

[t43562]

This is old but I don't remember seeing it before and it shows a little bit of the premesis and a few of the people so it interested me. I am sorry if it was posted before: 

[knowles2]

The only reason for the development of the SABRE engine, and the RB545 before it, was to power a SSTO spaceplane. If you want a TSTO with a reusable first stage then Elon Musk will sell you one tomorrow, without a 5-10 year, multi-billion dollar development programme.

The £60 million grant, of UK taxpayers money, was precisely to PREVENT the USA getting their hands on it, and to preserve the technology to be developed in the UK:   https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/uk-space-conference-2013

But the founders and directors of REL were forced out, and the money men thought that they would make a fortune out of it.

An they only got that 60 million by selling a share of their company to BAE. An ispent years in bureaucratic log jam.

[knowles2]

It’s a sufficiently revolutionary technology, especially its defence applications that for the time being its use should be restricted to only the US, UK & other NATO members. Which is only similar to the restriction on the sales of certain drones. Not everything should be about the bottom dollar.

So it's OK to sell Typhoons to Saudi, but not flight weight heat exchangers to India?

The technology isn't particularly revolutionary, and enough details have been published so a country prepared to ignore patent rights and with a tech level capable of attempting to develop a Mach 7 cruise missile could replicate the engines anyway  should there be any useful defence applications.

Edit: undo last minute edit that made it gibberish.

They would have to reverse engineer Reaction Engines manufacturing technology, which I don't believe have been patented. It would certainly push chinese engineers to their limits as they can't even developed normal jet engines that are as efficient and as powerful as the West builds.

[knowles2]

Why do you keep up with non-relevant examples. The Typhoon is hardly comparable if it was their would be restrictions on its sales.

No, it's not equivalent - the typhoon is a modern fighter jet. SABRE is an en engine designed for space access. If one were to be restricted I would of thought it would be the machine designed to kill,  rather than the one that "may have defence applications"

Others can replicate the engines because they're attempting to develop Mach 7 cruise technology?

If a country has a sufficient tech level to make Mach 7 cruise missiles a realistic possibility, then a SABRE equivalent, which "could have been built with 60s  technology" isn't going to be a significant challenge.
Sabre 4 has a lot of modern efficiency twists compared to the RB545, but it's essentially the same engine the UK managed to come up with in the 80s.

The tech. in SABRE likely has other applications in "machines designed to kill". Restricted export of the HX will be for the same reason America doesn't sell the F22 or give the UK access to F35 code.

The idea of pre-cooled jet engines goes back as far as the 50's; it's obviously not easy to manufacture the HX. Maybe others will eventually develop an indigenous capability to manufacture them but that's unlikely in the short-term.

UK got the F35 source code when we threaten to leave the project, along with the stealth technology which US also wanted to deny an export license for.

[CrewtaiL]

Why do you keep up with non-relevant examples. The Typhoon is hardly comparable if it was their would be restrictions on its sales.

No, it's not equivalent - the typhoon is a modern fighter jet. SABRE is an en engine designed for space access. If one were to be restricted I would of thought it would be the machine designed to kill,  rather than the one that "may have defence applications"

Others can replicate the engines because they're attempting to develop Mach 7 cruise technology?

If a country has a sufficient tech level to make Mach 7 cruise missiles a realistic possibility, then a SABRE equivalent, which "could have been built with 60s  technology" isn't going to be a significant challenge.
Sabre 4 has a lot of modern efficiency twists compared to the RB545, but it's essentially the same engine the UK managed to come up with in the 80s.

The tech. in SABRE likely has other applications in "machines designed to kill". Restricted export of the HX will be for the same reason America doesn't sell the F22 or give the UK access to F35 code.

The idea of pre-cooled jet engines goes back as far as the 50's; it's obviously not easy to manufacture the HX. Maybe others will eventually develop an indigenous capability to manufacture them but that's unlikely in the short-term.

UK got the F35 source code when we threaten to leave the project, along with the stealth technology which US also wanted to deny an export license for.

Any sources confirming that, please?

[Star One]

Why do you keep up with non-relevant examples. The Typhoon is hardly comparable if it was their would be restrictions on its sales.

No, it's not equivalent - the typhoon is a modern fighter jet. SABRE is an en engine designed for space access. If one were to be restricted I would of thought it would be the machine designed to kill,  rather than the one that "may have defence applications"

Others can replicate the engines because they're attempting to develop Mach 7 cruise technology?

If a country has a sufficient tech level to make Mach 7 cruise missiles a realistic possibility, then a SABRE equivalent, which "could have been built with 60s  technology" isn't going to be a significant challenge.
Sabre 4 has a lot of modern efficiency twists compared to the RB545, but it's essentially the same engine the UK managed to come up with in the 80s.

The tech. in SABRE likely has other applications in "machines designed to kill". Restricted export of the HX will be for the same reason America doesn't sell the F22 or give the UK access to F35 code.

The idea of pre-cooled jet engines goes back as far as the 50's; it's obviously not easy to manufacture the HX. Maybe others will eventually develop an indigenous capability to manufacture them but that's unlikely in the short-term.

UK got the F35 source code when we threaten to leave the project, along with the stealth technology which US also wanted to deny an export license for.

Any sources confirming that, please?

I second that as this is the first I’ve heard of this.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Reaction Engines Ltd‏ @ReactionEngines 26m26 minutes ago

Imagine 9 cups of tea per second! New arrival to our #thermalmanagement team, #HTX GSE boiler that will be used to reject heat energy #Precooler tests 2018 @ReactionEngUSA. Great to work with Sterling TT.

https://twitter.com/ReactionEngines/status/920569109917634560

[john smith 19]

Reaction Engines Ltd‏ @ReactionEngines 26m26 minutes ago

Imagine 9 cups of tea per second! New arrival to our #thermalmanagement team, #HTX GSE boiler that will be used to reject heat energy #Precooler tests 2018 @ReactionEngUSA. Great to work with Sterling TT.

https://twitter.com/ReactionEngines/status/920569109917634560

So it looks like they are designing and building at least some of the H/W for the US test site in the UK. It also suggests the links between the UK and US are quite good.

2018 should be an exciting year for REL.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Construction underway for @reactionengines revolutionary space rockets testbed @Westcottvp #SABRETF1 #rocketscience

https://twitter.com/WestcottVP/status/921017007591567362

[Citizen Wolf]

Em, this is a bit random, but I was watching a video today about a supposed hypersonic missile that Russia is developing. I have no idea about the veracity of the story, but at 49 seconds in the video it looks like a cut-away of a SABRE engine.

[Ictogan]

Em, this is a bit random, but I was watching a video today about a supposed hypersonic missile that Russia is developing. I have no idea about the veracity of the story, but at 49 seconds in the video it looks like a cut-away of a SABRE engine.

It doesn't just look like a cut-away of a SABRE engine, the guy who made the video has literally just pasted in a cutaway of a SABRE engine. And he says seconds later that the missile is powered by a scramjet, whereas SABRE definitely is not a scramjet. In other words, it's just some guy using a fancy picture to have some nice-looking video material, nothing to do with the real Zircon missile.

[john smith 19]

It doesn't just look like a cut-away of a SABRE engine, the guy who made the video has literally just pasted in a cutaway of a SABRE engine. And he says seconds later that the missile is powered by a scramjet, whereas SABRE definitely is not a scramjet. In other words, it's just some guy using a fancy picture to have some nice-looking video material, nothing to do with the real Zircon missile.

"Random" is right.

People make a big thing of how "stealthy" these missiles could be, but since they all seem to use body compression they will have large flat areas which have to be very heat resistant. That alone will make them good radar targets. But once you switch to infra red (and any major military should have ship board IR systems by now) they will show up at hundreds of Km out, and they cant' do low level attack because of the huge pressure forces on a SCramjet when you fly at low level at M5. 

[Soundbite]

 I have just come across this Powerpoint presentation made in the Air Power Conference 13 July 2017 by Ben Gallagher - Business Development Lead at Reaction Engines Ltd https://www.airpower.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/APC17_Day-2_Session-3_Mr-B-Gallagher_Reaction-Engines-Hypersonic-Flight.pdf. Most of the slides don't show anything new, but one of the slides show the names of three investment funds that have put money into Reaction Engines, namely Elliot Management Corporation (American Hedge Fund), Artemis Investment Management and Odey Asset Management.

[john smith 19]

I have just come across this Powerpoint presentation made in the Air Power Conference 13 July 2017 by Ben Gallagher - Business Development Lead at Reaction Engines Ltd https://www.airpower.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/APC17_Day-2_Session-3_Mr-B-Gallagher_Reaction-Engines-Hypersonic-Flight.pdf. Most of the slides don't show anything new, but one of the slides show the names of three investment funds that have put money into Reaction Engines, namely Elliot Management Corporation (American Hedge Fund), Artemis Investment Management and Odey Asset Management.

Well spotted. That is interesting.  Being able to get large scale investors on board is going to be critical to rasing the funding needed to make this work. It's good to see this seems to finally be happening.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Preparing for shipping ! Aerodynamic duct and pressure vessel for our #HTX high temperature testing @ReactionEngUSA #thermalmanagement

https://twitter.com/ReactionEngines/status/928644899452399617

[JCRM]

This month's Spaceflight (ISSN 0038-6340, Vol 59 No. 12 December 2017) mentions the HTX in the 'Briefing Notes' section, ending with

REI says that flight tests could begin within five years with an X-series research vehicle which will integrate airframe, propulsion system and associated systems for a hypersonic vehicle which may satisfy US Air Force requirement for a hemispheric strike system

Have we seen the 5 year X-series claim before?

[john smith 19]

This month's Spaceflight (ISSN 0038-6340, Vol 59 No. 12 December 2017) mentions the HTX in the 'Briefing Notes' section, ending with

REI says that flight tests could begin within five years with an X-series research vehicle which will integrate airframe, propulsion system and associated systems for a hypersonic vehicle which may satisfy US Air Force requirement for a hemispheric strike system

Have we seen the 5 year X-series claim before?

Aside from sounding like a troll what is your point?

[ringsider]

Most of the slides don't show anything new, but one of the slides show the names of three investment funds that have put money into Reaction Engines, namely Elliot Management Corporation (American Hedge Fund), Artemis Investment Management and Odey Asset Management.

The entire shareholder list is public information.