Author Topic: Speculation and Discussion: Crew for first SpaceX Mars mission  (Read 41011 times)

Online RonM

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Atlanta, Georgia USA
  • Liked: 1469
  • Likes Given: 1108
SpaceX's priority is to get the ISRU propellant facility operational. Most of the crew on the first flight would be engineers. Once the "gas station" and base are setup they can send lots of scientists (paying passengers).

Offline Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
  • UK
  • Liked: 385
  • Likes Given: 165
What crew would SpaceX send on the first manned mission?

My guess: About 10 people
* Commander/Pilot/Comms
* Pilot/BFS Engineer/Comms
* Doctor/Biologist/Cook
* Vehicle Engineer/Driver
* Chemist/ISRU Engineer
* Geologist/Scout/Driver
* Geologist/Scout/Driver
* Hab Engineer/Builder/Driver
* Biologist/Gardener/Cook
* ??
I think the roles of "driver" and "cook" will probably be removed and done by the entire team.

Driver - because flexibility demands that at some point everyone will need to drive.

Cook - because everyone can do it, and it will probably be good for team morale if everyone takes it in turn to cook. Nutrition and ingredients planning will have been done on Earth.

You might need more "Engineers" - not to say someone who is an engineer, but someone who has spent a lot of time disassembling, and reassembling, a specific bit of equipment. Perhaps 2 people who can do each piece of equipment:
- Life support expert
- Launch engine expert
- Communications and IT expert
- HVAC expert
- Airlock expert
- Vehicle expert (car mechanic?)
- ....

what are the dozen main and critical systems? Each crew member would then know how to fix TWO of these "blind folded whilst breathing 0.1 bar Oxygen."

Of course, one of the main system types is "human" and we'll need 2 engineers - commonly called "Doctors", to maintain and fix these.

I think there would be pressure to reduce the crew size to save mass so any “*??” would just be eliminated as would any excessive duplication. Also some specialities are broader and more important than others. Here’s my revised list (and I suspect that arguments over saving mass might cause even this list to be reduced to 6 or even 4.

Primary roles (majority of crew memebers background experience and training)
Paramedic
Starship ECLSS engineer
Starship mechanical engineer
Starship electrical engineer
Starship comms and computer systems engineer
Chemist ISRU engineer
Biologist
Geologist

Secondary roles (substantial background and or training)
All of the above skills should be duplicated in a second crew member who would have substantial knowledge in the topic. Exactly which crew member is the backup for which other crew member would depend on individual availability and fit and is not that important.

Tertiary roles (important roles that do not require as much training or where lesser training is acceptable in view of other crew skills present)
Commander/”pilot”
2nd in command/”pilot”
Cook
Driver
Rover specialist
Drilling specialist
Solar power specialist
Mars suit specialist

Everyone would also need the basic ships systems / EVA / first aid etc. training
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline DistantTemple

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • England
  • Liked: 325
  • Likes Given: 514
Yes.. just saying "engineer" or even "robotic engineer, or "electrical engineer" is not the point. as
Quote from: RonM
SpaceX's priority is to get the ISRU propellant facility operational. Most of the crew on the first flight would be engineers. Once the "gas station" and base are setup they can send lots of scientists (paying passengers).

Instead I bet SX plans from: "What team do we need to get the ISRU system installed working, and loading sufficient propellant?" Just like an engineering firm on Earth would. Then its the time frame, how that fits within the Synod and the first refuelled return. An then how would that team be most effectively redeployed, once released from that. So some of these engineers will be working on the ISRU system now.

If this was a new Antarctic base there would be a detailed project map, with a time line of critical milestones for infrastructure etc, and then teams of personnel selected to achieve them. 

Linked to this will be a team to set up the "mining" of water for ISRU, and a sub group of ISRU team working on CO2 capture from the atmosphere.

The other main projects are landing pads and pad infrastructure, (electrical) power, and habitats or "base".

Details.
The ISRU team will include one of the most senior architects of the current project, and team engineers that know the installation inside out, and the rationale behind it. It will include those highly skilled at fabrication, as well as chemical engineers. It may turn out that they have done such a good job that it just slots together and works! but its too important not to have the very best people right there to make sure.

The pad team, may be the lead engineer who will have had a lead role in developing plans on earth, and a cryogenic fuel engineer, from a current SX team, and then cross trained members from ISRU, mining, and habitats.

Mining and mining vehicle, mechanics and robotics, will be several engineers and technicians, again from existing teams, with a senior lead several (3+?) practical and highly skilled experts with full ability to understand use, repair and adapt every item of their equipment, (including 1 crane/lifting engineer/driver) and (2+?) "geologist(s)" and mining engineers who have the skills to mine safely and the understanding to find and extract the resources.

Habitat may be one lead base architect, and a team that was pre-planned from the other mission members to be redeployed to base construction at suitable windows in their primary mission.

I DO DEFINITELY think a highly skilled medical professional will be needed. Rather a surgeon than an MD. There is a high chance of falls, broken bones, open fracture complicated by Mars dust ingress frostbite and "bends", which will be survivable but need surgery to rebuild or amputate. Despite the low gravity, there will be large masses, and high energy equipment used in pressing situations. There is also illness and medical research in a general sense. Poisoning issues to do with Mars compounds, despite an assumed attempt to keep contaminants our of habitats  etc. Plus possibly a pure science role, and being a second in the ECLSS team. Possibly an army vet with battlefield medical experience, or industrial injury trauma surgeon. Several other expedition members will be crash trained in trauma medical support. (a second trained paramedic would be a priority)

If "mars brick" is to be made or "mars concrete" etc  likely a key developer of each technology will be slotted in where possible.

There will be a "farmer" or plant scientist, who may spend a lot more time in secondary roles. Although "cook" may be entirely secondary, it may be prioritised due to its importance to health and motivation. EM and Kimbal will want trials of various plans and systems to inform the next developments, even if initially they are small experiments. However it may even be a useful vegetable component!!! Even in the first synod.

So min 4 on the expert ISRU team (+2 from pad building)
and 6 on the mining and geology team (they will also help "build" the ISRU)
2 pad construction and cryo fuelling experts
1 base architect
1 "trauma surgeon" 1 paramedic
1 plant scientist 1 ECLSS lead/expert (there must be several trained up to support all parts of the ECLSS and maybe a backup lead)
1 cook/ human/space health person.
1 mars material utilisation engineer (plus chemistry "lab")
1 Mars materials chemist/metallurgy expert/scientist (as well as above)
1 Electronic communications/electronics specialist to lead on comms/satellite .. installing and fixing comms.
1 programmer, although many others will have to program robots, rovers, and automated machinery and vehicles.
1 power systems manager.
1 suit and airlock expert/maintenance technician
1 hydraulics technician.
3d printing, welding, machining, .... all skills within the teams.
1 Team leader

That's 24.26 now! Without these numbers critical items could be slow or be jeopardised. If things go wrong, almost anything can be fixed. (which is what you need.) If things go well, they can do extra exploration, scout for a second base/mine ... investigate specific features .... or do research for SX, NASA, or academic institutions.  or other science. (so the metallurgist is very important looking towards plans for the second manned synod)

Add 1 Starship captain and 2 seconds/Starship engineers. Many if not all will have to have had at least one previous trip to orbit, and some have EVA practice, etc.

I bet there is a person or two from NASA - maybe a scientist. Nearly 32 now!
« Last Edit: 01/04/2019 06:22 pm by DistantTemple »
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Online Kenp51d

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • Modesto, CA
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 21
Yes.. just saying "engineer" or even "robotic engineer, or "electrical engineer" is not the point. as
Quote from: RonM
SpaceX's priority is to get the ISRU propellant facility operational. Most of the crew on the first flight would be engineers. Once the "gas station" and base are setup they can send lots of scientists (paying passengers).

Instead I bet SX plans from: "What team do we need to get the ISRU system installed working, and loading sufficient propellant?" Just like an engineering firm on Earth would. Then its the time frame, how that fits within the Synod and the first refuelled return. An then how would that team be most effectively redeployed, once released from that. So some of these engineers will be working on the ISRU system now.

If this was a new Antarctic base there would be a detailed project map, with a time line of critical milestones for infrastructure etc, and then teams of personnel selected to achieve them. 

Linked to this will be a team to set up the "mining" of water for ISRU, and a sub group of ISRU team working on CO2 capture from the atmosphere.

The other main projects are landing pads and pad infrastructure, (electrical) power, and habitats or "base".

Details.
The ISRU team will include one of the most senior architects of the current project, and team engineers that know the installation inside out, and the rationale behind it. It will include those highly skilled at fabrication, as well as chemical engineers. It may turn out that they have done such a good job that it just slots together and works! but its too important not to have the very best people right there to make sure.

The pad team, may be the lead engineer who will have had a lead role in developing plans on earth, and a cryogenic fuel engineer, from a current SX team, and then cross trained members from ISRU, mining, and habitats.

Mining and mining vehicle, mechanics and robotics, will be several engineers and technicians, again from existing teams, with a senior lead several (3+?) practical and highly skilled experts with full ability to understand use, repair and adapt every item of their equipment, (including 1 crane/lifting engineer/driver) and (2+?) "geologist(s)" and mining engineers who have the skills to mine safely and the understanding to find and extract the resources.

Habitat may be one lead base architect, and a team that was pre-planned from the other mission members to be redeployed to base construction at suitable windows in their primary mission.

I DO DEFINITELY think a highly skilled medical professional will be needed. Rather a surgeon than an MD. There is a high chance of falls, broken bones, open fracture complicated by Mars dust ingress frostbite and "bends", which will be survivable but need surgery to rebuild or amputate. Despite the low gravity, there will be large masses, and high energy equipment used in pressing situations. There is also illness and medical research in a general sense. Poisoning issues to do with Mars compounds, despite an assumed attempt to keep contaminants our of habitats  etc. Plus possibly a pure science role, and being a second in the ECLSS team. Possibly an army vet with battlefield medical experience, or industrial injury trauma surgeon. Several other expedition members will be crash trained in trauma medical support. (a second trained paramedic would be a priority)

If "mars brick" is to be made or "mars concrete" etc  likely a key developer of each technology will be slotted in where possible.

There will be a "farmer" or plant scientist, who may spend a lot more time in secondary roles. Although "cook" may be entirely secondary, it may be prioritised due to its importance to health and motivation. EM and Kimbal will want trials of various plans and systems to inform the next developments, even if initially they are small experiments. However it may even be a useful vegetable component!!! Even in the first synod.

So min 4 on the expert ISRU team (+2 from pad building)
and 6 on the mining and geology team (they will also help "build" the ISRU)
2 pad construction and cryo fuelling experts
1 base architect
1 "trauma surgeon" 1 paramedic
1 plant scientist 1 ECLSS lead/expert (there must be several trained up to support all parts of the ECLSS and maybe a backup lead)
1 cook/ human/space health person.
1 mars material utilisation engineer (plus chemistry "lab")
1 Mars materials chemist/metallurgy expert/scientist (as well as above)
1 Electronic communications/electronics specialist to lead on comms/satellite .. installing and fixing comms.
1 programmer, although many others will have to program robots, rovers, and automated machinery and vehicles.
1 power systems manager.
1 suit and airlock expert/maintenance technician
1 hydraulics technician.
3d printing, welding, machining, .... all skills within the teams.
1 Team leader

That's 24.26 now! Without these numbers critical items could be slow or be jeopardised. If things go wrong, almost anything can be fixed. (which is what you need.) If things go well, they can do extra exploration, scout for a second base/mine ... investigate specific features .... or do research for SX, NASA, or academic institutions.  or other science. (so the metallurgist is very important looking towards plans for the second manned synod)

Add 1 Starship captain and 2 seconds/Starship engineers. Many if not all will have to have had at least one previous trip to orbit, and some have EVA practice, etc.

I bet there is a person or two from NASA - maybe a scientist. Nearly 32 now!
Spread over 2 ships?? Maybe manageable?

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Offline Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
  • UK
  • Liked: 385
  • Likes Given: 165
Yes.. just saying "engineer" or even "robotic engineer, or "electrical engineer" is not the point. as
Quote from: RonM
SpaceX's priority is to get the ISRU propellant facility operational. Most of the crew on the first flight would be engineers. Once the "gas station" and base are setup they can send lots of scientists (paying passengers).

Instead I bet SX plans from: "What team do we need to get the ISRU system installed working, and loading sufficient propellant?" Just like an engineering firm on Earth would. Then its the time frame, how that fits within the Synod and the first refuelled return. An then how would that team be most effectively redeployed, once released from that. So some of these engineers will be working on the ISRU system now.

If this was a new Antarctic base there would be a detailed project map, with a time line of critical milestones for infrastructure etc, and then teams of personnel selected to achieve them. 

Linked to this will be a team to set up the "mining" of water for ISRU, and a sub group of ISRU team working on CO2 capture from the atmosphere.

The other main projects are landing pads and pad infrastructure, (electrical) power, and habitats or "base".

Details.
The ISRU team will include one of the most senior architects of the current project, and team engineers that know the installation inside out, and the rationale behind it. It will include those highly skilled at fabrication, as well as chemical engineers. It may turn out that they have done such a good job that it just slots together and works! but its too important not to have the very best people right there to make sure.

The pad team, may be the lead engineer who will have had a lead role in developing plans on earth, and a cryogenic fuel engineer, from a current SX team, and then cross trained members from ISRU, mining, and habitats.

Mining and mining vehicle, mechanics and robotics, will be several engineers and technicians, again from existing teams, with a senior lead several (3+?) practical and highly skilled experts with full ability to understand use, repair and adapt every item of their equipment, (including 1 crane/lifting engineer/driver) and (2+?) "geologist(s)" and mining engineers who have the skills to mine safely and the understanding to find and extract the resources.

Habitat may be one lead base architect, and a team that was pre-planned from the other mission members to be redeployed to base construction at suitable windows in their primary mission.

I DO DEFINITELY think a highly skilled medical professional will be needed. Rather a surgeon than an MD. There is a high chance of falls, broken bones, open fracture complicated by Mars dust ingress frostbite and "bends", which will be survivable but need surgery to rebuild or amputate. Despite the low gravity, there will be large masses, and high energy equipment used in pressing situations. There is also illness and medical research in a general sense. Poisoning issues to do with Mars compounds, despite an assumed attempt to keep contaminants our of habitats  etc. Plus possibly a pure science role, and being a second in the ECLSS team. Possibly an army vet with battlefield medical experience, or industrial injury trauma surgeon. Several other expedition members will be crash trained in trauma medical support. (a second trained paramedic would be a priority)

If "mars brick" is to be made or "mars concrete" etc  likely a key developer of each technology will be slotted in where possible.

There will be a "farmer" or plant scientist, who may spend a lot more time in secondary roles. Although "cook" may be entirely secondary, it may be prioritised due to its importance to health and motivation. EM and Kimbal will want trials of various plans and systems to inform the next developments, even if initially they are small experiments. However it may even be a useful vegetable component!!! Even in the first synod.

So min 4 on the expert ISRU team (+2 from pad building)
and 6 on the mining and geology team (they will also help "build" the ISRU)
2 pad construction and cryo fuelling experts
1 base architect
1 "trauma surgeon" 1 paramedic
1 plant scientist 1 ECLSS lead/expert (there must be several trained up to support all parts of the ECLSS and maybe a backup lead)
1 cook/ human/space health person.
1 mars material utilisation engineer (plus chemistry "lab")
1 Mars materials chemist/metallurgy expert/scientist (as well as above)
1 Electronic communications/electronics specialist to lead on comms/satellite .. installing and fixing comms.
1 programmer, although many others will have to program robots, rovers, and automated machinery and vehicles.
1 power systems manager.
1 suit and airlock expert/maintenance technician
1 hydraulics technician.
3d printing, welding, machining, .... all skills within the teams.
1 Team leader

That's 24.26 now! Without these numbers critical items could be slow or be jeopardised. If things go wrong, almost anything can be fixed. (which is what you need.) If things go well, they can do extra exploration, scout for a second base/mine ... investigate specific features .... or do research for SX, NASA, or academic institutions.  or other science. (so the metallurgist is very important looking towards plans for the second manned synod)

Add 1 Starship captain and 2 seconds/Starship engineers. Many if not all will have to have had at least one previous trip to orbit, and some have EVA practice, etc.

I bet there is a person or two from NASA - maybe a scientist. Nearly 32 now!

Quite a list! Although I hope you don't mind me pointing out that you have forgotten the Boatswain. Shame there would be no room for "stuff" just enough mass for people and their supplies. ;D
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline KSHavre

  • KSHavre
  • Member
  • Posts: 42
  • Portland, OR
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 91
That's 24.26 now! Without these numbers critical items could be slow or be jeopardised.

I agree on all except the medical crew. I volunteer (every weekend through the winter) for a First Responder organization. While we do have medical professionals who tend to fill in teaching/certification roles, there are members from all walks of life. All the crew should get First Responder training at the bare minimum.

For any trauma, the first half hour is key to survival. ABCD = Airway (blockages?) Breathing (air getting to lungs regularly?) Circulation (is the heart functioning correctly). Once a patient is stabilized, you can take your time to figure out what is wrong, Telemedicine can take care of all the specialized treatments the crew will most likely not encounter. I know; 48 minutes is the worst case round trip communication from earth. Medical trauma requires a calm and patient person with the right supplies and equipment to keep someone alive, long enough to make sure you get the treatment right.

I am only offering this information so all y'all can focus on crew that maximize the success of the initial excursion (IMHO = ISRU). Okay, finding one trauma doc or field paramedic who is also a fit for any other role is a plus; especially when the earth surgeon says stick a needle or cut into someone! In the very worst case scenario, there are plenty of examples of self-surgery in extreme cases, some very crude, and some with the assistance of a remote doctor providing guidance.

Edit: Which gets you back to 24! :-D
« Last Edit: 01/05/2019 05:13 pm by KSHavre »

Offline CuddlyRocket

Some of the lists above have included both a medical doctor and a biologist. I think this is unnecessary.

Any such doctor selected for this mission is also going to be a medical scientist, responsible for making observations of, and running tests on, the crew, as one would hope that accidents and illnesses would take a small amount of their time. Any biologist would have nothing to do if they don't discover any life - the likeliest scenario. If life is discovered, a competent medical scientist could operate any equipment to carry out the initial characterisation, especially with advice and instruction from Earth. There'll be another mission 26 months after the first, and if life is discovered many of the world's greatest microbiogists will be clamouring to go!

Online DigitalMan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 661
  • Liked: 174
  • Likes Given: 11
I agree on all except the medical crew. I volunteer (every weekend through the winter) for a First Responder organization. While we do have medical professionals who tend to fill in teaching/certification roles, there are members from all walks of life. All the crew should get First Responder training at the bare minimum.

For any trauma, the first half hour is key to survival. ABCD = Airway (blockages?) Breathing (air getting to lungs regularly?) Circulation (is the heart functioning correctly). Once a patient is stabilized, you can take your time to figure out what is wrong, Telemedicine can take care of all the specialized treatments the crew will most likely not encounter. I know; 48 minutes is the worst case round trip communication from earth. Medical trauma requires a calm and patient person with the right supplies and equipment to keep someone alive, long enough to make sure you get the treatment right.

I am only offering this information so all y'all can focus on crew that maximize the success of the initial excursion (IMHO = ISRU). Okay, finding one trauma doc or field paramedic who is also a fit for any other role is a plus; especially when the earth surgeon says stick a needle or cut into someone! In the very worst case scenario, there are plenty of examples of self-surgery in extreme cases, some very crude, and some with the assistance of a remote doctor providing guidance.

Edit: Which gets you back to 24! :-D

When going to climb Denali training such as this is done also.  Besides space exploration large mountains are another area where risk of injury/death is very high

Offline Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
  • UK
  • Liked: 385
  • Likes Given: 165
I find it very suprising that people appear to be serious about sending 20-30 or more peope on the first Mars mission (must be a wind up no?)
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline guckyfan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6905
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1884
  • Likes Given: 1938
I find it very suprising that people appear to be serious about sending 20-30 or more peope on the first Mars mission (must be a wind up no?)

The plan is to send 2 manned Starships along with 2 cargo ships. 10-15 for each manned ship, so 20-30 in total seem appropriate.

Offline jpo234

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1437
  • Liked: 1387
  • Likes Given: 442
I find it very suprising that people appear to be serious about sending 20-30 or more peope on the first Mars mission (must be a wind up no?)

The plan is to send 2 manned Starships along with 2 cargo ships. 10-15 for each manned ship, so 20-30 in total seem appropriate.
Don't forget the two preplaced cargo ships from the previous synode. 4 cargo ships plus 2 manned ships would mean approximately 500 tonnes of supplies. That's a lot.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2019 08:42 pm by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline guckyfan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6905
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1884
  • Likes Given: 1938
I find it very suprising that people appear to be serious about sending 20-30 or more peope on the first Mars mission (must be a wind up no?)

The plan is to send 2 manned Starships along with 2 cargo ships. 10-15 for each manned ship, so 20-30 in total seem appropriate.
Don't forget the two preplaced cargo ships from the previous synode. 4 cargo ships plus 2 manned ships would mean approximately 500 tonnes of supplies. That's a lot.

I did not forget. But most of the cargo of the 4 cargo ships will be for ISRU plant building. For crew I see the 2 manned ships, for people and supplies.

Offline Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
  • UK
  • Liked: 385
  • Likes Given: 165
I find it very suprising that people appear to be serious about sending 20-30 or more peope on the first Mars mission (must be a wind up no?)

The plan is to send 2 manned Starships along with 2 cargo ships. 10-15 for each manned ship, so 20-30 in total seem appropriate.

Well that sounds a bit more realistic, but still seems high to me. Why would they need so many people? Some of them sound a little redundant:

1 cook/ human/space health person - this is in addition to the "trauma surgeon" and paramedic. To have a dedicated cook sounds nice but most of the food will be prepacked and what isn't will be limited so it sounds like over kill to me better have 3-5 tons of additional stuff (rovers, science kit, contingency supplies, solar panels etc)

Team leader - there will need to be a team leader, but that role will be taken by one of the engineering or science team or the commander. No need for additional intermediate managers.

What is the hydraulics technician going to do for 99% of the time?

And the base architect?
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline guckyfan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6905
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1884
  • Likes Given: 1938
Much of the discussion we had before over the years.  ;)

Precooked packed food is a huge waste of mass and volume and gets boring over time. Much more efficient to cook fresh meals, especially during the long surface stay on Mars. Fresh bread and pastries as well. A good cook is worth his weight in gold. Well worth it even if it were an additional person.

Offline DistantTemple

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • England
  • Liked: 325
  • Likes Given: 514
I find it very suprising that people appear to be serious about sending 20-30 or more peope on the first Mars mission (must be a wind up no?)

The plan is to send 2 manned Starships along with 2 cargo ships. 10-15 for each manned ship, so 20-30 in total seem appropriate.

Well that sounds a bit more realistic, but still seems high to me. Why would they need so many people? Some of them sound a little redundant:

1 cook/ human/space health person - this is in addition to the "trauma surgeon" and paramedic. To have a dedicated cook sounds nice but most of the food will be prepacked and what isn't will be limited so it sounds like over kill to me better have 3-5 tons of additional stuff (rovers, science kit, contingency supplies, solar panels etc)

Team leader - there will need to be a team leader, but that role will be taken by one of the engineering or science team or the commander. No need for additional intermediate managers.

What is the hydraulics technician going to do for 99% of the time?

And the base architect?
Yes right now I agree with you on those two. The base would likely be planed on Earth where changes to default plans could be modelled etc. And the hydraulics would be a secondary skill of a couple of the other engineers/technicians. The number may well be trimmed a little. But any skilled person would work at a variety of other tasks, when his speciality was not needed.

Food for 20 to 30 is quite a job, and for two years is an important component in morale. Coupled with Kimble's work in food, I believe at least one meal a day will be from "real" food, and a cook will be essential.

I stand by my Trauma surgeon. You are asking brilliant people to go to an inaccessible place for two years, so you give them the best chance and support you can within the constraints.

I firmly believe in my overall rationale, and in fairly large teams. EM is a bold character, not one to "waste" a synod with a little experiment, when he can install a large working system. And (IMO) the crew will be based on project teams (who redeploy to other tasks when their prime role is not active.)
« Last Edit: 01/05/2019 10:53 pm by DistantTemple »
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
  • UK
  • Liked: 385
  • Likes Given: 165
Perhaps my original guess of a crew of 4 might get stretched a little. I could see 6 or even 8 on a Starship, but I would be very surprised to see 12 or more on the first missions.

The way I see it there will be intense competition for cargo space from different design teams and interest groups (see below) so there will be some horse trading – ok a cook / chef – but they must also be a qualified engineer. Or leave the programmer at home any reprogramming can be handled from Earth its less than an hour away and a whole team on programmers can be all over the code.

Here is some of the completion for mass as I see it:
The astronaut selection and training team will be bombarded by requests for sending crew trained in every imaginable discipline by the other teams. Everything from cookery to hydraulics will be requested and suggested. I’m sure the initial list will be huge as people here have suggested.

But there will be many other voices. The ISRU team will want a truly huge solar farm with cabling, a small chemical gas plant, electrical switchgear, an electrolysis plant, compressors, filters, tanks, drills and a small bulldozer / utility vehicle.

The survey team will want two large pressurised rovers and perhaps 2 small utility moon buggy type vehicles, two space suits for everyone (with spares), an on ship laboratory with glove boxes handling facilities and large amounts of science kit ranging from geologists hammers to spectrophotometers, microscopes, drills, sampling equipment, bags boxes…

The medical team will want; well I dread to think of the amount of kit. Everything from stethoscopes to an MRI scanner and enough medicine to sink a battleship.

The ECLSS people will argue for a massive ECLSS with a range of consumables such as filters, spares for everything twice over and a large contingency of oxygen, nitrogen and water just in case.

The people responsible for building the Starship will be saying wait 100 tons is for the empty shell! What about the decks, the connecting corridor, beds, doors, tables, chairs, 2-3 toilets, 2-3 showers, pumps pipes tanks, acceleration couches, comms equipment, carpet, the galley, and so on.

Then someone is going to add it all up and say there’s not enough mass to go round somethings going to have to give.
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Online Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Canada
  • Liked: 454
  • Likes Given: 677
Perhaps my original guess of a crew of 4 might get stretched a little. I could see 6 or even 8 on a Starship, but I would be very surprised to see 12 or more on the first missions.

The way I see it there will be intense competition for cargo space from different design teams and interest groups (see below) so there will be some horse trading – ok a cook / chef – but they must also be a qualified engineer. Or leave the programmer at home any reprogramming can be handled from Earth its less than an hour away and a whole team on programmers can be all over the code.

Here is some of the completion for mass as I see it:
The astronaut selection and training team will be bombarded by requests for sending crew trained in every imaginable discipline by the other teams. Everything from cookery to hydraulics will be requested and suggested. I’m sure the initial list will be huge as people here have suggested.

But there will be many other voices. The ISRU team will want a truly huge solar farm with cabling, a small chemical gas plant, electrical switchgear, an electrolysis plant, compressors, filters, tanks, drills and a small bulldozer / utility vehicle.

The survey team will want two large pressurised rovers and perhaps 2 small utility moon buggy type vehicles, two space suits for everyone (with spares), an on ship laboratory with glove boxes handling facilities and large amounts of science kit ranging from geologists hammers to spectrophotometers, microscopes, drills, sampling equipment, bags boxes…

The medical team will want; well I dread to think of the amount of kit. Everything from stethoscopes to an MRI scanner and enough medicine to sink a battleship.

The ECLSS people will argue for a massive ECLSS with a range of consumables such as filters, spares for everything twice over and a large contingency of oxygen, nitrogen and water just in case.

The people responsible for building the Starship will be saying wait 100 tons is for the empty shell! What about the decks, the connecting corridor, beds, doors, tables, chairs, 2-3 toilets, 2-3 showers, pumps pipes tanks, acceleration couches, comms equipment, carpet, the galley, and so on.

Then someone is going to add it all up and say there’s not enough mass to go round somethings going to have to give.

One advantage of the SX Spaceship program is that there is going to be one final crew selection board consisting of only the SX CTO for the first Mars wave. IMO

Offline Slarty1080

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 857
  • UK
  • Liked: 385
  • Likes Given: 165
Snip...
One advantage of the SX Spaceship program is that there is going to be one final crew selection board consisting of only the SX CTO for the first Mars wave. IMO

A very good point and I think you’re right. I'm sure Elon will have a huge amount of advice and recommendations from teams of experts but yes he will probably be making the final decision.

Before then the scope of the payload will probably slowly be fleshed out leaving some key choices to make. x tons absolute requirement for solar panels, y tons absolute requirement for fittings, z tons for the ISRU kit and so on, leaving some much smaller amount to play with for the optional things.
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline mwood

  • Member
  • Posts: 32
  • Plano, TX
  • Liked: 29
  • Likes Given: 0
It seems like something is missing from this discussion. Where's the water? The character of the first missions will be to prove a reliable source of water for fuel production. You must have provable quantities of water before dropping in 100's of tonnes of infrastructure. I agree that later missions will need most everything you can imagine but the thread is titled "Crew for first Mars Mission". I assume this means a permanent settlement site has not been established.

The thing I've had trouble figuring out is whether a water source can be proven without a crew. And without a proven water source how does the ship get refueled. I think first cargo ships must be able to process soil for water. This guarantees fuel reserves for later crewed ship. This also requires certain cargo for soil processing. Then the crewed ship, on next synod, has primary responsibility of finding a water source sufficient for a permanent settlement. These responsibilities should drive the required crew selection. It sounds like drillers and miners are the required types.

Offline guckyfan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6905
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1884
  • Likes Given: 1938
It seems like something is missing from this discussion. Where's the water? The character of the first missions will be to prove a reliable source of water for fuel production. You must have provable quantities of water before dropping in 100's of tonnes of infrastructure. I agree that later missions will need most everything you can imagine but the thread is titled "Crew for first Mars Mission". I assume this means a permanent settlement site has not been established.

The first two cargo Starships will do the verification of water. So they need some regolith moving equipment or drill rig plus additional equipment, which would be lost if the site is found unsuitable. Unlikely IMO as NASA has very good data but possible. So drop a huge amount of solar panels. Very much needed but not too expensive when lost.

Tags: