Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 - EchoStar 23 - March 16, 2017 - DISCUSSION  (Read 1995204 times)

Offline baldusi

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Those thinking of expanding the range, should think that things like stand down (due to an anomaly) mean months of underutilized assets. I think having one anomaly each two years has sort of been the normal situation. So it just doesn't makes sense to invest too much on the range if we are talking about a couple of days of delay for one payload once per quarter.

Offline mn

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It is 48 hrs

Thanks Jim.

So that would make it Mar 6 or earlier for the Falcon 9 static fire right?  Technically seems possible for a Mar 10 if the Delphi IV M+ launched on Mar 8.  However, the time between static fire and launch for the Falcon 9 isn't constrained by another range reset is it?  Its more about SpaceX typically wanting static fire to be at least 3 days ahead of launch for the LRR based on static fire.  So still seems they would have indicated a NET Mar 13.

So still seems like they are planning to static fire ahead of the Delta IV M+ launch.  Either that or they are intending to consider the possibility of just a 2 day lead with the static fire.  Or NET Mar 15 is more likely.

This is where having the payload on the rocket for the static fire comes in to play. If they do the static fire with the payload they need less time between static fire and launch.

Of course they will not be doing that (at least for a while), so they lose a day.

Offline macpacheco

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It is 48 hrs
Great !
So is it possible from Air Force/NASA perspective to have a static fire on LC40 monday, static fire on LC39A tuesday, launch on LC40 thrusday, launch on LC39A on saturday ? That would be enough to squeeze 2 launch windows in less than a whole week. 10 such events in a year, we have 20 launches. If needed, distribute some GTO launches to LC39A if there's enough room untl the next CRS/FH launch.
« Last Edit: 02/24/2017 01:37 am by macpacheco »
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Offline AndyH

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As it seems SpaceX does not have a problem to fill their queue (customers) but has a bottleneck in launching (emptying the queue) the extra personnel expense should be easily paid by the augmented launch rate - unless they launch at a loss.



Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.
Who pays?  You said it - they're AF and/or NASA folks - we all pay for them to support launch ops.  I think your airport analogy is a good one.  How many pilots will frequent an airport when their radio call is met with "ah, sorry 64P, we're full right now.  Come back next Wednesday"   :)

As noted, though - Boca Chica's in the works and hopefully this is all a temporary concern.

Offline Jim

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Who pays?  You said it - they're AF and/or NASA folks - we all pay for them to support launch ops.

We don't provide enough money to support more than 5/40.

Offline feynmanrules

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Referencing jim's comment and cscott's informative follow-up on pad turnaround tasks... here is a pad-reuse question answered by spacex's jessica jensen during the post CRS launch conf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfh9-o-6Cso?t=1037

Seems as if their 39a improvements might allow substaintial improvement turnaround, but they thought 2wks was conservative estimate at this point.  They also briefly discuss changes to strongback pullback.


Previously, at least, the umbilicals and electrical wires got burnt off after each launch, and had to be essentially rebuilt each time AIUI.  Probably plumbing and gaskets and valves got melted or bent out of shape by heat damage as well, requiring rebuild.  Improvements make it so less and less of it is damaged each time, but it's an incremental process (and "big" changes like throwback are part of that).  The business end of a rocket makes for a hellish environment.  There will probably always be *some* sacrificial components.

Consider: even if you protect a component by spraying some ablative coating on top, then you need to strip and respray that coating; it gets used up to some degree by each launch.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2017 03:41 am by feynmanrules »

Offline WmThomas

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Offline Brovane

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As it seems SpaceX does not have a problem to fill their queue (customers) but has a bottleneck in launching (emptying the queue) the extra personnel expense should be easily paid by the augmented launch rate - unless they launch at a loss.



Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.

That is why a Airport charges a passenger fee, as traffic at the airport increases traffic then fees increase.  The passenger fee pays for any additional resources to support increased traffic. 
"Look at that! If anybody ever said, "you'll be sitting in a spacecraft naked with a 134-pound backpack on your knees charging it", I'd have said "Aw, get serious". - John Young - Apollo-16

Offline Norm38

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Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.

Not at Southwest Airlines rates. But a Saturday launch of an F9 doesn't equate to an SW 737 does it? If they want it, they can afford it.

Offline gongora

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We're straying a bit off-topic for a SpaceX mission thread.  SpaceX is going to occasionally have to wait their turn when other people are using the range.  This is really not unexpected and shouldn't have much effect on them over the course of the year if they're only launching around 15 flights from the East coast in 2017.

Offline Jim

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Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.

Not at Southwest Airlines rates. But a Saturday launch of an F9 doesn't equate to an SW 737 does it? If they want it, they can afford it.

No, because Spacex doesn't pay full range costs.

Offline Jim

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As it seems SpaceX does not have a problem to fill their queue (customers) but has a bottleneck in launching (emptying the queue) the extra personnel expense should be easily paid by the augmented launch rate - unless they launch at a loss.



Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.

That is why a Airport charges a passenger fee, as traffic at the airport increases traffic then fees increase.  The passenger fee pays for any additional resources to support increased traffic. 

Doesn't work that way with the federal gov't.  Airport fees do not pay for FAA salarys

Online DigitalMan

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As it seems SpaceX does not have a problem to fill their queue (customers) but has a bottleneck in launching (emptying the queue) the extra personnel expense should be easily paid by the augmented launch rate - unless they launch at a loss.



Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.

That is why a Airport charges a passenger fee, as traffic at the airport increases traffic then fees increase.  The passenger fee pays for any additional resources to support increased traffic. 

Doesn't work that way with the federal gov't.  Airport fees do not pay for FAA salarys

In particular, my understanding is that any money paid for range costs would wind up going to the treasury, the Air Force would not get to keep it.  Is that right?

Offline Brovane

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As it seems SpaceX does not have a problem to fill their queue (customers) but has a bottleneck in launching (emptying the queue) the extra personnel expense should be easily paid by the augmented launch rate - unless they launch at a loss.






Those people aren't employed by Spacex.  They are Air Force or NASA people.  Who is going to pay for them?  Spacex flight rate isn't enough to justify adding more permanent employees.

Think of the range as a small airport (not a major one) that works 5/40.  SpaceX is adding maybe a weekend flight and two evening flights.  That doesn't justify additional full shifts.

That is why a Airport charges a passenger fee, as traffic at the airport increases traffic then fees increase.  The passenger fee pays for any additional resources to support increased traffic. 

Doesn't work that way with the federal gov't.  Airport fees do not pay for FAA salarys

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/apl/aatf/media/AATF_Fact_Sheet.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast
/advisory_committee/meeting_news/media/2016/oct/comstac_faa_budget_briefing_oct_2016.pdf

Based on this document I see the majority of Operations funding coming from user fees, not from the General Taxpayers. 






« Last Edit: 03/03/2017 09:18 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline DrRobin

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Since SpaceX is not going to recover the booster on this mission, is it known whether they intend to try anything interesting with the re-entry profile to acquire data potentially useful for future use? For example, one very old technique that has only been tried a few times is skip re-entry, which might be useful to bleed off delta-V. My default assumption is that if I haven't heard anything from the people with actual expertise, there are reasons I don't know that make it a bad idea, so I prepare to be educated.   :)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_reentry

Offline rsdavis9

The booster will only be going about 2300 m/s whereas skip reentry is for craft reentering from orbit which is about 7800 m/s. So the booster doesn't have enough velocity to stay up and skip. Normally they will fire the boosters before reentry so the booster doesn't burn up in the atmosphere. This time they may not have enough fuel.
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Offline kevin-rf

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I would guess, it has more to do with the entry angle. It will be following a ballistic profile and might hit the atmosphere at too steep an angle to skip.
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Offline OneSpeed

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Since SpaceX is not going to recover the booster on this mission, is it known whether they intend to try anything interesting with the re-entry profile to acquire data potentially useful for future use? For example, one very old technique that has only been tried a few times is skip re-entry, which might be useful to bleed off delta-V.

I would guess, it has more to do with the entry angle. It will be following a ballistic profile and might hit the atmosphere at too steep an angle to skip.

The booster is entering the denser part of the atmosphere at too steep an angle to skip, but the grid fins have already been used to impart a small angle of attack that provides some lift, and extends the range of the glide.

Offline manoweb

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The booster is entering the denser part of the atmosphere at too steep an angle to skip, but the grid fins have already been used to impart a small angle of attack that provides some lift, and extends the range of the glide.

That is what I thought too, but apparently people have seen this F9 without legs AND fins...

Offline hans_ober

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They might have to exhaust all propellant on S1 for this mission. Any idea if they're aiming for better insertion (like SES-9) to make up for delays?

They could tried re-entry testing, IIRC they did it when flying F9 v1.1 on a GTO mission (with no landing reserves). Elon tweeted that the stage seemed to have survived a hot re-entry of ~127kPa.

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