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#800
by
SeeShells
on 01 Apr, 2016 15:54
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Ask me. 
Do I believe it works?
Don't know.
Do I believe it doesn't work?
Don't know.
Have I seen something unusual?
Yes.
Do I know what caused it?
No.
Will I find out?
Darn straight I will.
The end of last year was a watershed moment for me. I saw something happen in my first power up. I didn't expect anything and it took me by surprise. I will not make anymore claims what I saw but it was an anomaly that wasn't expected. I know extraordinary claims will require extraordinary proof and truthfully this is both for if it works or doesn't.
I'm making this my goal to do just that and time isn't a great concern but a extraordinary build is.
Shell
Ok, I will. What specifically did you see that surprised you? When will your data be available?
Seriously, I can't wait to read about it! 
What i saw...
I saw a simple set of inexpensive digital scales deviate and increase in force applied as I increased the power to the frustum. It was a matchstick moment as I burned out an antenna in the waveguide, trashed my magnetron and even got my coax to the frustum shinny in wavelengths to the frustum as the VWSR went through the roof.
Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
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#801
by
SeeShells
on 01 Apr, 2016 16:41
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Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
I now have a big paper weight. the HV PS I got is toast with the transformer winding gone. I just got another one one order.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330719156681?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITShell
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#802
by
SeeShells
on 01 Apr, 2016 16:45
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Would someone care to comment on this stretched out TE mode? I find it very interesting.
Shell
ALL TEmnp (*) (or TMmnp) with p>1 well-formed resonant-mode standing-wave mode-shapes in a truncated cone cavity are "stretched out", because the exact solution in the longitudinal direction are spherical Bessel functions that instead of having equal wavelength wavepatterns have such stretched out wavepatterns such that the wavelength gets longer towards the small diameter, the apex of the cone.
That's the only way that standing-wave resonant mode-shapes can form that satisfy Maxwell's equations and the boundary conditions of a truncated cone.
In contrast, TEmnp (or TMmnp) resonant mode shapes in a cylindrical cavity have wavepatterns with equal wavelengths in the longitudinal direction: they are governed by Sine functions (instead of Spherical Bessel functions).
The smaller the cone angle and the more distant to the apex of the cone, the closer the geometry is to cylindrical, and the more equal are the wavelengths in the longitudinal direction.
Making a cylinder into a cone "stretches out" the wavelength towards the apex of the cone
_______________
(*)
TE = transverse electric mode shape: the electric field is only present in the circumferential direction
TM = transverse magnetic mode shape: the electric field is only present in the circumferential direction
TEmnp where
m = number of half wavepatterns in the circumferential direction
n = number of half wavepatterns in the radial direction (counting from the axis of axi-symmetry to a lateral wall)
p = number of half wavepatterns in the longitudinal direction (from one end plate to the other end plate)
Beautiful answer. Thanks!
I just needed to reconfirm that's what I'm working on is spherical Bessel functions.
Hitting the books again.
Shell
ADDED: Oh here is the other slice rotated 90
0
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#803
by
Vesc
on 01 Apr, 2016 16:54
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...
Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
Now that you've re-stated, I vaguely remember reading about that now! I knew that you were working on a new frustum and if I remember, you are looking at measuring force longitudinally and laterally relative to the major axis of the frustum?
Good luck, I remember the catastrophic breakdown, but I didn't know you were quite so close to a re-start. Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! No I don't get excited too much.... Maybe I need to get out more...
Didn't you say you had moved your experiment from shed to your house? Are you sure about that move?
Re: Tube Power Amps. Had a friend who wanted to build a Class A audio power amp using tubes, but then decided to go for a Nelson Pass designed circuit instead. Last I checked (this was many years ago) he had the aluminum extrusions needed for heat sinks as was busy matching transistors for his cascode... What fun. I never found out if he finished that project. Someday remind me to tell you the story of how I almost got myself and my tour guide locked into the rf cage of the transmitter finals (ceramic water cooled tubes) at the V.O.A in Delano CA....
Dave
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#804
by
Vesc
on 01 Apr, 2016 17:09
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#805
by
SeeShells
on 01 Apr, 2016 17:13
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...
Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
Now that you've re-stated, I vaguely remember reading about that now! I knew that you were working on a new frustum and if I remember, you are looking at measuring force longitudinally and laterally relative to the major axis of the frustum?
Yes. It is in the plans on the runs to do just that. Your memory isn't that bad, you're pulling my leg.
Good luck, I remember the catastrophic breakdown, but I didn't know you were quite so close to a re-start. Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! No I don't get excited too much.... Maybe I need to get out more...
Didn't you say you had moved your experiment from shed to your house? Are you sure about that move?
It's hard to keep the shop warm up here at 8700 Ft in the Rockies during winter. I've wrapped my lab room in foil backed insulation and have a chicken wire over fine mesh screen enclosure for a Faraday cages on the critical parts. It's quite safe.
Re: Tube Power Amps. Had a friend who wanted to build a Class A audio power amp using tubes, but then decided to go for a Nelson Pass designed circuit instead. Last I checked (this was many years ago) he had the aluminum extrusions needed for heat sinks as was busy matching transistors for his cascode... What fun. I never found out if he finished that project. Someday remind me to tell you the story of how I almost got myself and my tour guide locked into the rf cage of the transmitter finals (ceramic water cooled tubes) at the V.O.A in Delano CA....
Whoa, toasty time indeed! I'd listen to the VOA half way across the country in the 60's!
http://www.radioworld.com/article/voa-delano-station-goes-on-the-block/269252
Dave
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#806
by
Rodal
on 01 Apr, 2016 18:34
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It is a pleasure to report that a frequent NSF member contributor
(
http://emdrive.wiki/Todd_Desiato_(@WarpTech)%27s_Evanescent_Wave_Theoryhttp://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1385719#msg1385719)
to the EM Drive thread's article on an Electromagnetic Quantum Vacuum Warp Drive has now been
published in the peer-reviewed Journal of the British Interplanetary Society:It is proposed that gravitational fields may be interpreted as a variation in the relative available driving power (Watts) of the Electromagnetic, Zero-Point Field (ZPF). It is shown that variations in the relative power are covariant with variations in the coordinate speed of light as measured by distant observers in unaltered space-time. Gravitational time dilation and length contraction may then be interpreted as a loss of power in the ZPF. It is shown that an amplification of the ZPF is necessary to drive inflation and achieve faster than light speeds. This principle of matter and power is utilized to show the form of matter required, may be interpreted as a reduced ground state equilibrium energy density of ordinary matter. Associated with an increased ground state energy and volume, caused by the increased power of the ZPF. This property is utilized to derive a new type of electromagnetic warp drive that can eliminate the effects of time dilation and length contraction that occur in accelerated reference frames. In this paper it is shown that a warp field may be achieved by putting real energy into the ZPF, rather than extracting energy from it and thus represents a paradigm shift in warp drive technology.
The Electromagnetic Quantum Vacuum Warp Drive
T. J. Desiato (2015), JBIS, 68, pp.347-353http://jbis.org.uk/paper.php?p=2015.68.347Slide presentation here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275336571_The_Electromagnetic_Quantum_Vacuum_Warp_Drive_Slides_____________
Two months ago, on thread 6, on 02/17/2016, we had announced that Todd's article was accepted for publication in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39004.msg1492559#msg1492559First published in 1934, the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (JBIS) was the first to describe many aspects of space travel. It is now produced as a 72 page volume every alternate month. JBIS features the work of individual space organisations, companies, universities and space projects, and areas of space science and space technology.
Editorial and advisory board:
http://www.jbis.org.uk/editors.php____________
http://www.warpdrivetech.com/____________
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#807
by
rq3
on 01 Apr, 2016 18:57
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Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
I now have a big paper weight. the HV PS I got is toast with the transformer winding gone. I just got another one one order.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330719156681?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Shell
Shell, how much RF are you expecting from your magnetron running on a 15 watt power supply?
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#808
by
tchernik
on 01 Apr, 2016 19:02
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Did Todd get some ideas from the forum's discussion or is this not related at all?
In any case, this looks like a very fine work. Congratulations Todd!
I'm more and more getting the (yet unconfirmed) feeling that these phenomena of anomalous thrust (as I said, if confirmed) may have something to do with altering the vacuum state using EM energy, and as such, it is just the first of a family of devices using the same set of phenomena for achieving much more impressive effects.
It may be nothing at all, but it may be something bigger than we think. In any case, thank you guys for the ride!
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#809
by
Rodal
on 01 Apr, 2016 19:06
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Did Todd get some ideas from the forum's discussion or is this not related at all?
In any case, this looks like a very fine work. Congratulations Todd!
I'm more and more getting the (yet unconfirmed) feeling that these phenomena of anomalous thrust (as I said, if confirmed) may have something to do with altering the vacuum state using EM energy, and as such, it is just the first of a family of devices using the same set of phenomena for achieving much more impressive effects.
It may be nothing at all, but it may be something bigger than we think. In any case, thank you guys for the ride!
Todd had been working on Electromagnetic Propellant-less propulsion using the Quantum Vacuum and the theory of General Relativity, to allow faster than light travel, prior to his contributions to the EM Drive thread.
In his discussions in the EM Drive thread, Todd was able to propose several hypotheses that the EM Drive may also work through a similar mechanism involving his concept of the Electromagnetic Zero Point Field and Gravitation, the Polarizable Vacuum (PV) Model developed by Harold Puthoff .
See, for example:
http://emdrive.wiki/Todd_Desiato_(@WarpTech)%27s_Evanescent_Wave_Theoryhttp://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1385719#msg1385719 and other posts
brief early presentation by Todd on the EM Drive:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37642.0;attach=838353
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#810
by
SeeShells
on 01 Apr, 2016 19:50
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Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
I now have a big paper weight. the HV PS I got is toast with the transformer winding gone. I just got another one one order.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330719156681?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Shell
Shell, how much RF are you expecting from your magnetron running on a 15 watt power supply?
?
5KW DC 3 milliAmps
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#811
by
SeeShells
on 01 Apr, 2016 19:57
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Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
I now have a big paper weight. the HV PS I got is toast with the transformer winding gone. I just got another one one order.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330719156681?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Shell
Shell, how much RF are you expecting from your magnetron running on a 15 watt power supply?
Not ready to disclose what it's for yet.
Bear with me.
Shell
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#812
by
rq3
on 01 Apr, 2016 21:42
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Seriously I'm hoping to have a new set of runs using a DC HV power supply driving a water cooled magnetron and a new frustum up and running in a week or so. Right now I'm repairing the Fluke HV PS I received, UPS busted it up in shipping and if I can get it going I'll be off and running. But... if not, I'll need to buy a replacement. That takes about 10 days to get here.
Love the old tube power supplies, they are almost bullet proof (not UPS proof)
So you know what I know and all I can say I have a gazillion runs to do before I present data as well.
I now have a big paper weight. the HV PS I got is toast with the transformer winding gone. I just got another one one order.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330719156681?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Shell
Shell, how much RF are you expecting from your magnetron running on a 15 watt power supply?
?
5KW DC 3 milliAmps
It's not 5 KW. It's 5 KV (kilovolts) X 0.003 amps= 15 watts
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#813
by
Rodal
on 01 Apr, 2016 21:50
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#814
by
spupeng7
on 02 Apr, 2016 01:27
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...
Cullen was a distinguished Professor and that article was an excerpt from his PhD thesis. It is not fair to the memory of Prof. Cullen to mix him with anything regarding the EM Drive.
...
Except that Roger Shawyer was inspired by Cullen's work to try building an emdrive which may yet prove to be an important experiment...
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#815
by
TheTraveller
on 02 Apr, 2016 02:19
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...
As you are well aware Roger's Df and theory equations predict the end plate radiation forces based on use of Cullen 15 and the classic guide wavelength equations for a mode and diameter.
You and others here have stated on many occassions, Roger's use of Cullen 15 is not correct for the calculation of the end plate radiation pressure. This is of course just your theory as you have no experimental data to back it up.
That lack of experimental data will soon be fixed.
You answer the question regarding what mathematical theory ever said that the radiation pressure at the ends of a truncated cone cavity are identical, with a non-sequitur concerning Dr. Cullen's paper.
Cullen was a distinguished Professor and that article was an excerpt from his PhD thesis. It is not fair to the memory of Prof. Cullen to mix him with anything regarding the EM Drive.
Professor Alexander Lamb Cullen, died on 27 December 2013. During WW2 he worked on early radar at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough. In 1946 he took up a lectureship at UCL, where he worked with Harold Barlow in building up microwave research. In 1955 he was appointed to the Chair of Electrical Engineering at the University of Sheffield, but returned to UCL to succeed Barlow as Pender Professor and Head of Department in 1967. He was appointed OBE in 1960, and was elected Fellow of the Royal Society in 1977. Among other distinctions he received the Faraday Medal of the Institution of Electrical Engineers (now IET).
Prof. Cullen never had anything to do with the EM Drive. Prof. Cullen's paper deals with measuring the radiation pressure of open, cylindrical waveguides.
Please do not confuse:
* open waveguides with closed cavities
* cylindrical geometry with truncated cone geometry
This is not my "theory" it is a factual, undeniable reading of Prof. Cullen's paper. It is undeniable that Prof. Cullen never never made any such assertions about truncated conical cavities having an unbalanced force that would cause them to self-accelerate.
As you have answered with a non-sequitur regarding Prof. Cullen's paper, I take it that you don't know of any mathematical theory that maintains that the radiation pressure at the ends of a truncated cone are the same. The pressures at the ends of a resonant truncated conical cavity cannot be the same, in order to satisfy conservation of momentum.
Concerning:
Roger's use of Cullen 15 is not correct for the calculation of the end plate radiation pressure. This is of course just your theory as you have no experimental data to back it up.
That lack of experimental data will soon be fixed.
As I previously explained the equation you are referring to was not invented by Prof. Cullen, but it follows from Maxwell's equations for radiation pressure. It doesn't make sense to call such equation as Cullen's equation. It is a valid equation for the radiation pressure for open waveguides. The fact that it does not apply to closed cavities like a truncated cone is not my theory, it is a fact that you can discern from many textbooks: Collin, or Jackson's for example.
Of course, the contradiction is due to the fact that Professor Cullen never conducted experiments with truncated conical cavities. One should not confuse open cylindrical waveguides (Prof. Cullen's experiments) with closed truncated conical cavities (SPR Ltd.) 
Thank you.
So I take it your rather long winded answer says you expect my experimental results will be outcome 2 and not outcome 1 nor 3?
While I'm waiting for the new frustum to be built, plan to rebuild the existing frustum to directly measure radiation pressure on each end plate.
As I see it, there are 3 possible outcomes:
1) radiation pressure on both end plates are the same.
2) radiation pressure on small end plate is less than on big end plate but the ratio is not what Roger's equations predict.
3) results 2 but ratio is what Roger's equations predict.
BTW Cullen 15 is just an equation and you have no experimental proof, that you have presented, that it doesn't work, should not be applied, to the radiation pressure generated on the end plates of a frustum. It would seem all you have is your opinion that it should not be applicable to the effect Roger used it to explain. See attached.
As an engineer, instead of making assumptions of what is and is not a proper use of Cullen 15, I intent to test Roger's use of Cullen 15 and his use of standard guide wavelength calculations at each end of the frustum.
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#816
by
DnA915
on 02 Apr, 2016 02:28
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Dr. Rodal,
How similar are Mr. Desiato's (WarpTech) theories on the warp drive vs. Eagleworks's Dr. White?
Thanks!
David
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#817
by
Rodal
on 02 Apr, 2016 02:28
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....
So I take it your rather long winded answer says you expect my experimental results will be outcome 2 and not outcome 1 nor 3?
While I'm waiting for the new frustum to be built, plan to rebuild the existing frustum to directly measure radiation pressure on each end plate.
As I see it, there are 3 possible outcomes:
1) radiation pressure on both end plates are the same.
2) radiation pressure on small end plate is less than on big end plate but the ratio is not what Roger's equations predict.
3) results 2 but ratio is what Roger's equations predict.
No offense, but I explained in a previous message, based on my background in experimental stress measurements I think that your method of measurement is unable to measure the internal radiation pressure on any internal surface of a truncated cone electromagnetically resonant cavity. Thus, I have no idea what your measurement will measure. Perhaps you will measure the thermal expansion of the truncated cone, if close enough, as suggested by Mr. Li, resulting in force measurements due to thermal expansion.
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#818
by
Rodal
on 02 Apr, 2016 02:32
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Dr. Rodal,
How similar are Mr. Desiato's (WarpTech) theories on the warp drive vs. Eagleworks's Dr. White?
Thanks!
David
Good question. Both explanations involve the Quantum Vacuum. Unfortunately I cannot answer your question because I have not seen the equations behind Dr. White's computational model to calculate the thrust of the EM Drive. Without seeing Dr. White's equations, I cannot compare both theories.
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#819
by
TheTraveller
on 02 Apr, 2016 02:38
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....
So I take it your rather long winded answer says you expect my experimental results will be outcome 2 and not outcome 1 nor 3?
While I'm waiting for the new frustum to be built, plan to rebuild the existing frustum to directly measure radiation pressure on each end plate.
As I see it, there are 3 possible outcomes:
1) radiation pressure on both end plates are the same.
2) radiation pressure on small end plate is less than on big end plate but the ratio is not what Roger's equations predict.
3) results 2 but ratio is what Roger's equations predict.
No offense, but I explained in a previous message, based on my background in experimental stress measurements I think that your method of measurement is unable to measure the internal radiation pressure on any internal surface of a truncated cone electromagnetically resonant cavity. Thus, I have no idea what your measurement will measure. Perhaps you will measure the thermal expansion of the truncated cone, if close enough, as suggested by Mr. Li, resulting in force measurements due to thermal expansion.
Amazing statement, really amazing.
I went to some length to explain the experimental setup and that the side walls and upper end plate would not touch the lower end plate. I guess you did not bother to read what I had posted & have no real idea how I will conduct the experiment.
To make it very simple there will NO CONTACT between the frustum side walls and the end plate under test.
Please review the attached.
