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#500 by mwvp on 24 Mar, 2016 00:50
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So it is one of these possibilities:...Thank you for the clarification. The natural question is now "Are you building your own version of the EMdrive?".
The EM Drive is a completely closed metallic cavity. I am not building a completely closed metallic cavity.
I think your answer to this will clear it up for science writers who visit NSF.
Not completely closed & metallic
Completely closed & non-metallic
Not completely closed & non-metallic
Last night, while viewing http://emlab.utep.edu/ee5390em21.htm lecture 13 and 14 on metamaterials and photonic crystals, it occurred to me that a frustrum, either solid or shell, may be possible that has lower loss than copper at ambient temperature. First thing that comes to mind would be a very low loss alumina aerogel.
This article: http://arxiv.org/abs/1506.01099 discusses using a dielectric sphere to boost cavity Q, by pulling flux away from sidewalls and reducing induced currents, however there's a couple problems.
First, boosting the Q from ~10,000 to 100k or millions may result in intensities which lead to breakdown, especially around the dielectric marble.
Second, there's Fresnel drag. The marble will be moving in the same inertial frame as the frustrum, dragging flux with it. It may be the Abraham, rather than the Minkowski radiation momenta responsible for a doppler/acceleration induced momenta imbalance and thrust.
A metallic reflector doesn't drag much flux at all along with it, and is the surface the radiation reacts against. I can see why Shawyer might not think well of dielectrics, save for fine-tuning. -
#501 by mwvp on 24 Mar, 2016 00:58
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...Ellis is the kind of scientist that Shawyer should reach for help
...
Why doesn't Shawyer drive to see people like Ellis and tell him: please look at my experiments
Perhaps Shawyer is trying to have his cake and eat it. He doesn't want clever folks figuring it out, and besting or not needing him, so he contrives an obvious bogus theory to be dismissed off-hand by experts while hyping promises of hover-cars and green orbiting solar panels to the press to get government funding. Or he's simply mistaken. Or its a scam. The last two don't seem likely, as he would either consider the criticism, or devise a more elaborate new-physics theory impossible to validate. -
#502 by Monomorphic on 24 Mar, 2016 00:59
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From the label in the images, it looks like Shawyer is using one of these amps: http://www.maltd.com/am5.html
http://www.maltd.com/power-amplifiers-25-watts-am4.html
I misidentified the amp. This is the correct one: http://www.maltd.com/am49.html -
#503 by Rodal on 24 Mar, 2016 01:56
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Another observation. Shawyer has a very robust circular rotating winch system installed in the ceiling of his laboratory. It appears aligned so he can lower emdrives, some rather large obviously, onto the heavily reinforced dual air-track system.
How sure are you that that is a winch system? It looks like something else to me. Why would a winch have a guard around its periphery ?
Roger is experimenting with much larger systems than what is shown! -
#504 by SeeShells on 24 Mar, 2016 02:28
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I thought it was a fan... but what do I know?Another observation. Shawyer has a very robust circular rotating winch system installed in the ceiling of his laboratory. It appears aligned so he can lower emdrives, some rather large obviously, onto the heavily reinforced dual air-track system.
How sure are you that that is a winch system? It looks like something else to me. Why would a winch have a guard around its periphery ?
Roger is experimenting with much larger systems than what is shown!
Shell -
#505 by zen-in on 24 Mar, 2016 05:19
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Another observation. Shawyer has a very robust circular rotating winch system installed in the ceiling of his laboratory. It appears aligned so he can lower emdrives, some rather large obviously, onto the heavily reinforced dual air-track system.
How sure are you that that is a winch system? It looks like something else to me. Why would a winch have a guard around its periphery ?
Roger is experimenting with much larger systems than what is shown!
Maybe it's the part of his EM-Drive invention no one else knows about. -
#506 by FattyLumpkin on 24 Mar, 2016 05:26
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#507 by Chrochne on 24 Mar, 2016 05:35
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My intelligence network just sent me a link on whole document of the Project Greenglow - The Quest for Gravity Control
Enjoy
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#508 by Willem Staal on 24 Mar, 2016 06:29
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I've learned a lot about metal working the past couple of weeks, regarding flatness. If it looks flat...it really isn't.
I wonder.. Does the overall thickness of the front and endplate of the frustrum have any effect on the endresult? Maybe its better to have a thick copperplate for the small end and a thin copperplate for the big end..
The 1/8 copper disk (small diameter) looked great from the supplier until I put it on a lapping plate with a backing disk. Progressing from 60 to 2000 grit sandpaper, I was amazed at the material I had to remove to make it close to "flat".
At 2000 grit last night, serious striations are gone but there is still a micron level "unflatness" even after about 4 hours of hand sanding. What this taught me is there is almost no way DIYers can ever achieve perfection in sidewalls. I agree its desirable to maintain shape and symmetry, but I think its best not to worry about it too much. A fully machined and polished frustum is well beyond our budgets. I received a quote for leveling and polishing the small endplate and it was $675
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#509 by knowles2 on 24 Mar, 2016 08:48
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Or perhaps he just doesn't really care about the theory and it more interested in the practical sides of building bigger, better EM-Drives and scaling up his engines to the point where critics can argue about the maths and the physics till they are blue in the face, he will just leave his engine floating in the middle of the room for them all to observe while they do it.
...Ellis is the kind of scientist that Shawyer should reach for help
...
Why doesn't Shawyer drive to see people like Ellis and tell him: please look at my experiments
Perhaps Shawyer is trying to have his cake and eat it. He doesn't want clever folks figuring it out, and besting or not needing him, so he contrives an obvious bogus theory to be dismissed off-hand by experts while hyping promises of hover-cars and green orbiting solar panels to the press to get government funding. Or he's simply mistaken. Or its a scam. The last two don't seem likely, as he would either consider the criticism, or devise a more elaborate new-physics theory impossible to validate. -
#510 by spupeng7 on 24 Mar, 2016 10:07
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After five years of typing 'emdrive' into the arXiv search box I finally got a match
This is about Lorentz forces on balance beams
BBC picture of Shawyer from magazine because we can't get BBC iview in Aussieland
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#511 by rfmwguy on 24 Mar, 2016 11:59
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Good question, I took Rodal's thoughts of thicker material, which solved a possible problem of buckling on the endplates and also provided a surface easier to polish and flatten. Am not certain on the outcome, but the testing in May should give us an answer. The sidewalls are about 1 mm thickness.I've learned a lot about metal working the past couple of weeks, regarding flatness. If it looks flat...it really isn't.
I wonder.. Does the overall thickness of the front and endplate of the frustrum have any effect on the endresult? Maybe its better to have a thick copperplate for the small end and a thin copperplate for the big end..
The 1/8 copper disk (small diameter) looked great from the supplier until I put it on a lapping plate with a backing disk. Progressing from 60 to 2000 grit sandpaper, I was amazed at the material I had to remove to make it close to "flat".
At 2000 grit last night, serious striations are gone but there is still a micron level "unflatness" even after about 4 hours of hand sanding. What this taught me is there is almost no way DIYers can ever achieve perfection in sidewalls. I agree its desirable to maintain shape and symmetry, but I think its best not to worry about it too much. A fully machined and polished frustum is well beyond our budgets. I received a quote for leveling and polishing the small endplate and it was $675 -
#512 by Rodal on 24 Mar, 2016 12:06
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Let's also remember Minotti's theory of gravito-electromagnetism to explain an anomalous force of the EM Drive:
Good question, I took Rodal's thoughts of thicker material, which solved a possible problem of buckling on the endplates and also provided a surface easier to polish and flatten. Am not certain on the outcome, but the testing in May should give us an answer. The sidewalls are about 1 mm thickness.I've learned a lot about metal working the past couple of weeks, regarding flatness. If it looks flat...it really isn't.
I wonder.. Does the overall thickness of the front and endplate of the frustrum have any effect on the endresult? Maybe its better to have a thick copperplate for the small end and a thin copperplate for the big end..
The 1/8 copper disk (small diameter) looked great from the supplier until I put it on a lapping plate with a backing disk. Progressing from 60 to 2000 grit sandpaper, I was amazed at the material I had to remove to make it close to "flat".
At 2000 grit last night, serious striations are gone but there is still a micron level "unflatness" even after about 4 hours of hand sanding. What this taught me is there is almost no way DIYers can ever achieve perfection in sidewalls. I agree its desirable to maintain shape and symmetry, but I think its best not to worry about it too much. A fully machined and polished frustum is well beyond our budgets. I received a quote for leveling and polishing the small endplate and it was $675
http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.5690
Minotti predicts a force proportional to the thickness of metal used in the cavity, as long as the thickness is thin enough (of the order of 1 mm). The thicker the cavity, the greater the force according to Minotti.
2 mm thick cavity = twice the force of a 1 mm thick cavity, everything else being the same, at microwave frequencies. -
#513 by Rodal on 24 Mar, 2016 12:32
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I thought it was a fan... but what do I know?Another observation. Shawyer has a very robust circular rotating winch system installed in the ceiling of his laboratory. It appears aligned so he can lower emdrives, some rather large obviously, onto the heavily reinforced dual air-track system.
How sure are you that that is a winch system? It looks like something else to me. Why would a winch have a guard around its periphery ?
Roger is experimenting with much larger systems than what is shown!
Shell
I agree 100% that it is a fan.
My industrial experience is with massive overhead cranes. I am very familiar with 50 ton, 75 ton and up to 100 ton overhead cranes (including double girder cranes). I'm not familiar with any <<circular rotating winch system >> overhead lifting system, but it strikes me that the blades are way too flimsy to be able to be structural parts of a lifting system.
An industrial fan as the one shown in the picture is commonplace, and it is useful to rapidly evacuate the room from any fumes, and for facilities (as usual in Europe) without air conditioning, it can be quite pleasant to have in the summer.
When it's cold, fans can also be a big help with helping draw hot air in from the ceiling to circulate lower to the ground, and move the air better, since hot air naturally rises.
The guard at the periphery, as well as the blades are typical of industrial overhead fans. -
#514 by TheTraveller on 24 Mar, 2016 12:39
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I noticed the Rf amp doesn't appear to have power applied & Roger is seen to be pushing the platform. Have emailed Roger to explain
He did tell me the air track was designed for high thrust cryo drives & he was limited to showing only non cryo thrusters that were not embargoed.
The unit he showed was 2008 vintage & a build prior to the Flight Thruster. At 80W Rf input, thrust was probably only 20mN, so a lot lower than say 100N for a cryo thruster.
A direct link to the video is here:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3zqmo9#video/x3zqmo9
Phil -
#515 by rfmwguy on 24 Mar, 2016 12:40
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Endplates are ~3.1 mm after lapping and polishing. (edit - proper term is lapping, not planing).
Let's also remember Minotti's theory of gravito-electromagnetism to explain an anomalous force of the EM Drive:
Good question, I took Rodal's thoughts of thicker material, which solved a possible problem of buckling on the endplates and also provided a surface easier to polish and flatten. Am not certain on the outcome, but the testing in May should give us an answer. The sidewalls are about 1 mm thickness.I've learned a lot about metal working the past couple of weeks, regarding flatness. If it looks flat...it really isn't.
I wonder.. Does the overall thickness of the front and endplate of the frustrum have any effect on the endresult? Maybe its better to have a thick copperplate for the small end and a thin copperplate for the big end..
The 1/8 copper disk (small diameter) looked great from the supplier until I put it on a lapping plate with a backing disk. Progressing from 60 to 2000 grit sandpaper, I was amazed at the material I had to remove to make it close to "flat".
At 2000 grit last night, serious striations are gone but there is still a micron level "unflatness" even after about 4 hours of hand sanding. What this taught me is there is almost no way DIYers can ever achieve perfection in sidewalls. I agree its desirable to maintain shape and symmetry, but I think its best not to worry about it too much. A fully machined and polished frustum is well beyond our budgets. I received a quote for leveling and polishing the small endplate and it was $675
http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.5690
Minotti predicts a force proportional to the thickness of metal used in the cavity, as long as the thickness is thin enough (of the order of 1 mm). The thicker the cavity, the greater the force according to Minotti.
2 mm thick cavity = twice the force of a 1 mm thick cavity, everything else being the same, at microwave frequencies. -
#516 by SeeShells on 24 Mar, 2016 12:49
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I noticed the Rf amp doesn't appear to have power applied & Roger is seen to be pushing the platform. Have emailed Roger to explain
He did tell me the air track was designed for high thrust cryo drives & he was limited to showing only non cryo thrusters that were not embargoed.
The unit he showed was 2008 vintage & a build prior to the Flight Thruster. At 80W Rf input, thrust was probably only 20mN, so a lot lower than say 100N for a cryo thruster.
A direct link to the video is here:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3zqmo9#video/x3zqmo9
Phil
Let's look at this realistically not taking sides with a open mind.
I also saw he pushed it on the air track and he did it both directions. I also realized that this might not have been a real test drive as it was covered in dust from not being used. Also there was no battery or inverter to drive the RF Amp so it wasn't even working.
I also noticed on the back wall sitting on a table a larger frustum that he made sure you could see.
With this video I'm left with two possibilities.
1. He was prevented from showing a working model by NDAs and couldn't even power it up to show it working. Hence the drive that was obviously not a real working model.
2. It wasn't working and he just obviously pushed it.
It seems like he would have hidden it better if he was perpetrating a scam and it didn't work. Doesn't It? He is no real dummy to be that obvious to push the darn thing. -
#517 by rfmwguy on 24 Mar, 2016 13:21
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Its difficult to judge given the typical industrial and/or military secrecy that floats about the planet. Rodal is invoking his privilege either personally or otherwise and we just have to accept that. Only a few of us are openly sharing what we're doing. We are the exception, not the rule.I noticed the Rf amp doesn't appear to have power applied & Roger is seen to be pushing the platform. Have emailed Roger to explain
He did tell me the air track was designed for high thrust cryo drives & he was limited to showing only non cryo thrusters that were not embargoed.
The unit he showed was 2008 vintage & a build prior to the Flight Thruster. At 80W Rf input, thrust was probably only 20mN, so a lot lower than say 100N for a cryo thruster.
A direct link to the video is here:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3zqmo9#video/x3zqmo9
Phil
Let's look at this realistically not taking sides with a open mind.
I also saw he pushed it on the air track and he did it both directions. I also realized that this might not have been a real test drive as it was covered in dust from not being used. Also there was no battery or inverter to drive the RF Amp so it wasn't even working.
I also noticed on the back wall sitting on a table a larger frustum that he made sure you could see.
With this video I'm left with two possibilities.
1. He was prevented from showing a working model by NDAs and couldn't even power it up to show it working. Hence the drive that was obviously not a real working model.
2. It wasn't working and he just obviously pushed it.
It seems like he would have hidden it better if he was perpetrating a scam and it didn't work. Doesn't It? He is no real dummy to be that obvious to push the darn thing. -
#518 by Rodal on 24 Mar, 2016 13:37
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...Its difficult to judge given the typical industrial and/or military secrecy that floats about the planet. Rodal is invoking his privilege either personally or otherwise and we just have to accept that. Only a few of us are openly sharing what we're doing. We are the exception, not the rule.
Again, I am not building an EM Drive (a completely closed metallic cavity). Anything else I or others may be doing is off-topic for this thread titled <<EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications>>.
The statement <<Rodal is invoking his privilege either personally or otherwise and we just have to accept that. Only a few of us are openly sharing what we're doing. We are the exception, not the rule.>> is a non-sequitur, since it would be off-topic to discuss non-EM drive related subjects on this thread. You might as well also write:
<<"Chris Bergin" [substitute any other name here] is invoking his privilege either personally or otherwise for not writing in this EM Drive thread about Chris's non-EM Drive related activities.>>
No reason for writing about me doing non-EM-Drive related things on the EM Drive thread. Other NSF users are discussing other propellant-less projects in other NSF threads, for example Zen-In has a separate NSF thread on his interesting propellant-less space drive, patented invention US PTO 8575790, including building it, and his experiments:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39204.0
that readers eager to know about other propellant-less space drive concepts are well-served to read. -
#519 by wallofwolfstreet on 24 Mar, 2016 13:51
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Let's look at this realistically not taking sides with a open mind.
I also saw he pushed it on the air track and he did it both directions. I also realized that this might not have been a real test drive as it was covered in dust from not being used. Also there was no battery or inverter to drive the RF Amp so it wasn't even working.
I also noticed on the back wall sitting on a table a larger frustum that he made sure you could see.
With this video I'm left with two possibilities.
1. He was prevented from showing a working model by NDAs and couldn't even power it up to show it working. Hence the drive that was obviously not a real working model.
2. It wasn't working and he just obviously pushed it.
It seems like he would have hidden it better if he was perpetrating a scam and it didn't work. Doesn't It? He is no real dummy to be that obvious to push the darn thing.
As I mentioned on (another forum-mod edit), the idea of an NDA here doesn't hold up at all.
Looking at this realistically, there is no such thing as an NDA that lets you show the device, lets you tell the audience how you think the device works, lets you show what the device would do if it worked, but then not just turn it on and show it working.
Put yourself in the shoes of the counter party that signed this supposed NDA with Shawyer. You think they legitimately signed an NDA where he can show it off and talk about it on a BBC documentary, but just can't show it working? How would an NDA of that kind ever benefit the counter party?
Prevented from showing a working model (but allowed to show literally everything else) makes no sense from the NDA perspective.
The whole point of an NDA is to limit disclosure. But everyone who watches that video just got disclosed to. It's not hard to reverse engineer an oddly shaped metal cavity. Seeing the thing in action wouldn't have changed the fact that it's trivial for any competitors to go build one now (as evidenced by the fact that multiple people can build them in their garages on a shoestring budget).
As to the possibility of a scam? Consider other posts and your post even, where you admit that he pushed it, but are already coming up with justifications for why he wouldn't just show a working model. It's easy to scam people who want to believe. (not actually saying this is a scam of course, just pointing out that scaming is probably easier than you'd think once a good foundation has been laid)
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