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#480 by TheTraveller on 23 Mar, 2016 21:05
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This image is particularly important. It shows that the large end-plate is perfectly square. It also shows the emdrive next to standard sizes of aluminum angle. I can use these standard sizes to get almost exact dimensions for his c-band emdrive. Then it should be a simple scaling problem to get it working at 2.45Ghz.
Try 3.85GHz. -
#481 by FattyLumpkin on 23 Mar, 2016 21:37
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Changing subject back to open cavity thruster. Operating on Sonny's assertion that RF energy can act upon the QV.
1st image...What does this remind you of? (the copper item being the most germane [for now])
The second image: far more familiar?
Take 3rd image (the horn) and inject RF into a multiple of these cavities (image 4) and you end up with: high volume , high Q, OPEN END, directional thrust? F. L. It was just a thought. --so here it is...
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#482 by Monomorphic on 23 Mar, 2016 21:37
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#483 by FattyLumpkin on 23 Mar, 2016 21:41
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In image four the proton beam et al related to a LINAC should be ignored+ sorry about redundant image 5 (same as image 1)
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#484 by skrock on 23 Mar, 2016 22:10
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They showed the air track with an EmDrive on a self contained, self powered platform moving by itself.
Have videoed the segment & will shortly post.
Nicely done Roger!!!!
Hi TT, Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but to me it (Horizon segment) just showed Roger pushing it with his hands. -
#485 by Monomorphic on 23 Mar, 2016 22:18
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Based on a quick analysis of the video, and the convenient fact that the UK sells angle aluminum in inches like the US, I have come to these dimensions for the c-band "flare" emdrive shown in the BBC video.
Please note, the units shown in the image are cm, and I have tried to estimate the interior cavity, not the exterior dimensions.
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#486 by Star One on 23 Mar, 2016 22:34
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Popular Mechanics article today on EMDrive:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/news/a20076/the-emdrive-will-undergo-peer-review-that-it-wont-pass/
On record as dismissing the possibility, now seems they're covering their bets:
"Of course, there's the small-fraction-of-a-chance that it could survive the peer review process, at which point it maybe, just maybe, EmDrive technology has a ghost of a chance of being a reality."
More straightforward article without the additional commentary.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-nasa-eagleworks-confirms-paper-controversial-space-propulsion-under-peer-review-1551210 -
#487 by FattyLumpkin on 23 Mar, 2016 22:50
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DaileyMail : Is deep space travel a step closer to reality? Nasa reveals successful test of 'impossible' fuel-free engine that breaks the laws of physics
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3305990/Nasa-conducts-secret-tests-impossible-engine-Study-reveals-fuel-free-thrusters-work-no-one-knows-why.html#ixzz43lzBhbSA
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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#488 by knowles2 on 23 Mar, 2016 23:05
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Just wondering does Roger Sawyer still works alone or does he have other people with him at SPR Ltd?
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#489 by rfmwguy on 23 Mar, 2016 23:10
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It appears a full size version is on the workbench by the blue parts bin In the background. It also appears to have brackets for affixing to airtrack. The smaller one appears dusty and not often shown or used. Amateur photo analysis, of course...
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#490 by Monomorphic on 23 Mar, 2016 23:12
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It appears a full size version is on the workbench by the blue parts bin In the background. It also appears to have brackets for affixing to airtrack. The smaller one appears dusty and not often shown or used. Amateur photo analysis, of course...
That is the smaller one on the airtrack. In the video it is moving to the end, where it stops. It just looks like it is sitting on the workbench because of perspective. -
#491 by Monomorphic on 23 Mar, 2016 23:13
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From the label in the images, it looks like Shawyer is using one of these amps: http://www.maltd.com/am5.html
http://www.maltd.com/power-amplifiers-25-watts-am4.html
EDIT: I misidentified the amp. This is the correct one: http://www.maltd.com/am49.html
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#492 by TheTraveller on 23 Mar, 2016 23:16
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It appears a full size version is on the workbench by the blue parts bin In the background. It also appears to have brackets for affixing to airtrack. The smaller one appears dusty and not often shown or used. Amateur photo analysis, of course...
Roger told me he could only show an old non cryo EmDrive because of several reasons. -
#493 by Monomorphic on 23 Mar, 2016 23:27
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Able to get much stronger TE013 from estimated dimensions from BBC video. Honing in on the mode and trying to shift the dimensions to 2.45Ghz now. TE013 was found at ~4.78Ghz using estimated dimensions.
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#494 by rfmwguy on 23 Mar, 2016 23:28
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Good call thanks jamieIt appears a full size version is on the workbench by the blue parts bin In the background. It also appears to have brackets for affixing to airtrack. The smaller one appears dusty and not often shown or used. Amateur photo analysis, of course...
That is the smaller one on the airtrack. In the video it is moving to the end, where it stops. It just looks like it is sitting on the workbench because of perspective. -
#495 by Monomorphic on 23 Mar, 2016 23:43
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Another observation. Shawyer has a very robust circular rotating winch system installed in the ceiling of his laboratory. It appears aligned so he can lower emdrives, some rather large obviously, onto the heavily reinforced dual air-track system.
Roger is experimenting with much larger systems than what is shown!
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#496 by A_M_Swallow on 23 Mar, 2016 23:46
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I see the Daily Mail article reported these threads and nasaspaceflight.com.
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#497 by meberbs on 24 Mar, 2016 00:10
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Interesting opinion Dr. Rodal. However, Mr. Shawyer is ridiculed from the start he came up with the idea. If I would be on his place, I would be very careful to work with science community. Perhaps, it is the science community and those respectable scientists you speak about, that need to approach Mr. Shawyer now. He tried to approach them for decades, only to be harshly put back to "his place". And please do not take this as offensive from my side. I am just trying to read what he must went trought.
Shawyer's basic description of what he claims is roughly that he has found "a closed, propellentless system which generates thrust but does not break conservation of momentum". That part in quotes translates to physicists as "This breaks conservation of momentum, but does not break conservation of momentum." In response to this being pointed out as fundamentally inconsistent, he has written multiple papers all of which contain multiple major errors, and most of which pile so many errors on top of each other that by the end, his statements are too far removed from reality to even classify as correct or incorrect.
Unless Shawyer shows willingness to accept that there are flaws in his "theory" (such as by asking for help in the ways Rodal has suggested) I do not see how the scientific community can be expected to engage further with him.That is how science is supposed to work. However we live in a world where mathematical models are built, instead of physical models and the results from the math models trump physical results, well at least in the case of the EmDrive.
Sad really, sad.
This is entirely untrue. The models that mathematical models that physicists use have been developed to match reality very closely over literally hundreds of years. The limits of applicability for them are known (e.g. Newtownian mechanics does not work at speeds approaching c). Scientists have no problem with modifying them when experiments show they do not match reality (see the cosmological constant for example).
In the case of the EM drive, the models that are used are Maxwell's equations (such as in Egan's solutions). These are the same equations that are at the root of Cullen's result which is one of many, many experiments that validate them.
Shawyer is the only one who may be taking mathematical models over physical reality here.* He takes Cullen's result for a constant area wave guide, and uses it outside its region of applicability, by using it for a frustum resonator. This is taking a mathematical model and applying it while ignoring physical reality, which is what you are accusing others of. I have a simple example of the type of mistake to clarify:
Take a math model of a constant velocity particle in 1D motion:
x = x0 +v0*t
the particle will be at point x1 at time (x1-x0)/v0.
Now lets apply that to a particle with constant acceleration. (after all, constant velocity means constant acceleration of 0)
The model still says that the particle will be at point x1 at time (x1-x0)/v0.
We then run an experiment and find that it actually takes a time that happens to be dependent on the value of the acceleration. We should have used the model with the applicability to this situation: x = x0 +v*t +0.5*a*t^2
In this case, Shawyer is using Cullen's result which has a narrow applicability, rather than backing up to the more general model Cullen's result originates from which is known to have a wide range of applicability including a frustum resonator. (All of the finite element programs used in this thread use Maxwell's equations as their basis and have shown good matching with the observed resonances by DIYers)
*I cannot speak to Shawyer's experiments, but none of the experiments performed by anyone who has released enough information to analyze their experiment have shown sufficient thrust to even characterize how the physical models should be updated, if there is any need to at all. -
#498 by knowles2 on 24 Mar, 2016 00:19
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If he builds one that can lift 9 tonnes, then they will have no option but to engage with him, because even if his theory is completely wrong, his engines would clearly be working and the best way to build up the theory would be to experiment with working engines. Sawyer approach seem to be just build his engines an see if they work, if they don't move on to the next design.
If some photographs analyse here is right it would be nice to see some of his bigger engines. -
#499 by Rodal on 24 Mar, 2016 00:41
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This image is particularly important. It shows that the large end-plate is perfectly square. It also shows the emdrive next to standard sizes of aluminum angle. I can use these standard sizes to get almost exact dimensions for his c-band emdrive. Then it should be a simple scaling problem to get it working at 2.45Ghz.
It makes perfect sense that the end plate is square rather than rectangular, because the Q quality factor of resonance is maximized for a square cross-section. A rectangular cross-section (with unequal sides), all other things being equal, would have lower Q than a square cross section.