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#3980 by FattyLumpkin on 20 Jul, 2016 00:22
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Monomorphic, thanks for the sim., but the dimensions I gave were intended to reflect volume (just the small size of the frustum)...I did not mention the dielectric disk which is supposed to go with this geometry. Please see TE012 attached. Since then, I've made some minuet adjustments to the dimensions and frequency + additionally, as noted on attached there are two dipole antennae located equal-distant from one another on the bottom diameter of this design. Not one located on the side. I'll post the exact dimensions and details for all to see once I get one last sim. All adjusted to work at 2.45 GHz. Sorry if this created confusion...The Q estimate of +/- 19,000 is with the disk in place. (but is higher without it). , K PS: glad to see you were able to successfully reload your FEKO!
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#3981 by WarpTech on 20 Jul, 2016 00:39
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I also performed the "just push it" experiment proposed by WarpTech. When the wedge is moving I saw a slight decrease in RL for the three tests I did. In the chart, Light blue is stationary (RL-29.54dB), while dark blue is when the wedge is moving (RL-29.10dB).
Thanks for doing the test! When you say, "wedge is moving", do you mean accelerating or constant speed?
Here's another idea for the bench top. Place the frustum (wedge) on a bench with the big end up and measure the resonant frequency and Q. Then flip it upside down, with the small end up and repeat the test. Gravity is a constant 9.8 m/s2, so sitting still on a bench top, should be equivalent to accelerating the frustum at at this constant rate, flipping it to measure in both directions gives us forward and backward. Honestly, I don't know if this is measurable or not, but my hypothesis is; An EM to Acceleration Transducer should work both ways. Characterizing what happens to the field inside when the frustum accelerates will tell us how we need to modulate the field inside to cause it to accelerate. Right?
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#3982 by Monomorphic on 20 Jul, 2016 00:51
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I also performed the "just push it" experiment proposed by WarpTech. When the wedge is moving I saw a slight decrease in RL for the three tests I did. In the chart, Light blue is stationary (RL-29.54dB), while dark blue is when the wedge is moving (RL-29.10dB).
Thanks for doing the test! When you say, "wedge is moving", do you mean accelerating or constant speed?
Here's another idea for the bench top. Place the frustum (wedge) on a bench with the big end up and measure the resonant frequency and Q. Then flip it upside down, with the small end up and repeat the test. Gravity is a constant 9.8 m/s2, so sitting still on a bench top, should be equivalent to accelerating the frustum at at this constant rate, flipping it to measure in both directions gives us forward and backward. Honestly, I don't know if this is measurable or not, but my hypothesis is; An EM to Acceleration Transducer should work both ways. Characterizing what happens to the field inside when the frustum accelerates will tell us how we need to modulate the field inside to cause it to accelerate. Right?
The wedge was moving at a pretty constant speed. Not really accelerating except at the beginning of course.
I can also flip the emdrive in different directions and repeat the VNA. That's very easy. -
#3983 by WarpTech on 20 Jul, 2016 01:02
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I also performed the "just push it" experiment proposed by WarpTech. When the wedge is moving I saw a slight decrease in RL for the three tests I did. In the chart, Light blue is stationary (RL-29.54dB), while dark blue is when the wedge is moving (RL-29.10dB).
Thanks for doing the test! When you say, "wedge is moving", do you mean accelerating or constant speed?
Here's another idea for the bench top. Place the frustum (wedge) on a bench with the big end up and measure the resonant frequency and Q. Then flip it upside down, with the small end up and repeat the test. Gravity is a constant 9.8 m/s2, so sitting still on a bench top, should be equivalent to accelerating the frustum at at this constant rate, flipping it to measure in both directions gives us forward and backward. Honestly, I don't know if this is measurable or not, but my hypothesis is; An EM to Acceleration Transducer should work both ways. Characterizing what happens to the field inside when the frustum accelerates will tell us how we need to modulate the field inside to cause it to accelerate. Right?
The wedge was moving at a pretty constant speed. Not really accelerating except at the beginning of course.
I can also flip the emdrive in different directions and repeat the VNA. That's very easy.
Thanks, that would be best because a constant speed is equivalent to not moving. No effect will be present in an inertial reference frame. Whereas, testing it facing up and down are going to be in a constant accelerated reference frame. There should be a shift. How much, if any is measurable is what I would like to know. -
#3984 by FattyLumpkin on 20 Jul, 2016 04:02
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Hey Monomorphic, perhaps I missed when you described sensitivity of you torsion arm...I try to keep a close eye here at NSF but just don't remember. Is it sensitive to micro N or > a certain amount of micro or milli force? Just don't know how I missed it, please direct me to page(s) or perhaps briefly explain the sensitivity of your rig....If you would be so kind. Thanks , FL
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#3985 by RotoSequence on 20 Jul, 2016 05:11
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Thanks, that would be best because a constant speed is equivalent to not moving. No effect will be present in an inertial reference frame. Whereas, testing it facing up and down are going to be in a constant accelerated reference frame. There should be a shift. How much, if any is measurable is what I would like to know.
Best push against something other than the resonating cavity itself too, then.
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#3986 by Monomorphic on 20 Jul, 2016 14:55
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Hey Monomorphic, perhaps I missed when you described sensitivity of you torsion arm...I try to keep a close eye here at NSF but just don't remember. Is it sensitive to micro N or > a certain amount of micro or milli force? Just don't know how I missed it, please direct me to page(s) or perhaps briefly explain the sensitivity of your rig....If you would be so kind. Thanks , FL
I've not calibrated the torsional arm yet. I am going to wait until I install a more sensitive ADC. Will post that info when completed. -
#3987 by frobnicat on 20 Jul, 2016 18:02
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I also performed the "just push it" experiment proposed by WarpTech. When the wedge is moving I saw a slight decrease in RL for the three tests I did. In the chart, Light blue is stationary (RL-29.54dB), while dark blue is when the wedge is moving (RL-29.10dB).
I usually avoid to comment on EM waves aspects because it's not a lot in my field, but given the order of magnitude of wavelength, dimensions of cavity, Q, and accelerations involved by a "just push it", I'd think it's just plain impossible to detect a resonance shift due to something pertaining to "redshift". Actually it would be quite a flabbergasting experimental result in itself to show a rigid device (RF generator rigidly attached to rigid cavity) with similar parameters can be used as an accelerometer (of such sensitivity) as it seems to contradict Maxwell equations. I'm not speaking here of a resonance or phase shift induced by some mechanical deformation of cavity (or RF feed) induced by the acceleration, but a direct (small but significant) acceleration effect on the EM waves in an idealized perfectly rigid system (of similar parameters), really
I know of laser gyros but this is not really same wavelength, is it ? Anyone with more EM fu might prove me wrong on paper. Unless, I would consider this to be the result of mechanical deformation (of the cavity, or of the RF feed).
Anyhow, I have a quick and cheap experimental proposition that also (in idealized system with Maxwell only) should return null (no resonance or phase shift) but could conceivably show interesting slight deviation in reality : see how the readings react to the presence of a (strong) permanent magnet probing the system around, the system being static (fixed). This could also be related to the "just push it" effect : a moving (not necessarily accelerating) system in geomagnetic field might pick up some induced currents and/or change DC magnetic conditions around, even if it sounds a bit of a stretch. At least if the permanent magnet probing returns null we know such explanation to the push effect is excluded, and if it doesn't return null then that adds another unintuitive effect to investigate. Thanks.
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#3988 by dustinthewind on 20 Jul, 2016 22:48
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I also performed the "just push it" experiment proposed by WarpTech. When the wedge is moving I saw a slight decrease in RL for the three tests I did. In the chart, Light blue is stationary (RL-29.54dB), while dark blue is when the wedge is moving (RL-29.10dB).
I usually avoid to comment on EM waves aspects because it's not a lot in my field, but given the order of magnitude of wavelength, dimensions of cavity, Q, and accelerations involved by a "just push it", I'd think it's just plain impossible to detect a resonance shift due to something pertaining to "redshift". Actually it would be quite a flabbergasting experimental result in itself to show a rigid device (RF generator rigidly attached to rigid cavity) with similar parameters can be used as an accelerometer (of such sensitivity) as it seems to contradict Maxwell equations. I'm not speaking here of a resonance or phase shift induced by some mechanical deformation of cavity (or RF feed) induced by the acceleration, but a direct (small but significant) acceleration effect on the EM waves in an idealized perfectly rigid system (of similar parameters), really
I know of laser gyros but this is not really same wavelength, is it ? Anyone with more EM fu might prove me wrong on paper. Unless, I would consider this to be the result of mechanical deformation (of the cavity, or of the RF feed).
Anyhow, I have a quick and cheap experimental proposition that also (in idealized system with Maxwell only) should return null (no resonance or phase shift) but could conceivably show interesting slight deviation in reality : see how the readings react to the presence of a (strong) permanent magnet probing the system around, the system being static (fixed). This could also be related to the "just push it" effect : a moving (not necessarily accelerating) system in geomagnetic field might pick up some induced currents and/or change DC magnetic conditions around, even if it sounds a bit of a stretch. At least if the permanent magnet probing returns null we know such explanation to the push effect is excluded, and if it doesn't return null then that adds another unintuitive effect to investigate. Thanks.
If the light's energy is really equivalent to the energy transferred to the cavity during acceleration then maybe such a device, able to pull so much energy from light, if it works in reverse, could be quite an efficient accelerometer? That is if it's resisting acceleration can transfer as much energy to the light.
I am assuming that by F.dx there is a force in the forward direction and the cavity moves in the forward direction then an equivalent energy is drained from the light inside. So the reverse being the same force but being accelerated in the opposite direction then transfers energy to the light?
I am still unsure if there is any propulsion of course, but even if there "is propulsion" I am also unsure if it is just between the light and the cavity or there is some 3rd medium that allows the conservation of momentum.
With a 3rd medium, then even if the cavity is sitting still it could be accelerating this 3rd medium and doing work. If the cavity is only interacting with the light then if the cavity doesn't accelerate then no work is being done and so no energy should be lost. So which is it?
One might say, that momentum must be conserved so there must be a 3rd medium. That sounds good, but I can also think back to a photon recycling thruster where a force is acting on the mirrors but the mirrors are not accelerating so no energy is being lost until the mirrors start accelerating. There doesn't seem to be a 3rd medium needed for a force to exist on the photon recycling thruster with 2 separate mirrors but at least that system seems to obey the conservation of momentum. This of course brings me back to the effect of light entering a dielectric and becoming more massive, inducing a back reaction on the dielectric, and the more massive light being more effective at transferring energy to a reflector.
So maybe, if there is an accelerating dielectric of free space and the light is pushing on it, but the acceleration of gravity is greater, and the system is set up so the movement of the dielectric of free space is against the force from the light. As a result there should be some transferring of energy from the dielectric to the light. I guess this would be if the EM drive is pointed down? This is assuming some 3rd medium form of propellant. I am assuming something similar to what is in this paper here: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=17356997040342833631&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48 ?
DOES THE QUANTUM VACUUM FALL NEAR THE EARTH?
Tom Ostoma and Mike Trushyk
I am not really sure how seriously to take this line of thought but I am just throwing it out there.
Speaking of permanent magnets is interesting. I know stationary charge shouldn't be able to observe stationary magnetic fields but the current in motion inside the cavity should be able to observe them, similar to a hall effect probe maybe. I would imagine getting a permanent magnet close would change the observed modes inside the cavity because of the change in the path of the current. There would probably be at least some resistance to a change in the magnetic field observed. Similar to dragging aluminum near a magnet and moving the magnet or dropping a powerful magnet over a plate of aluminum.
I have questions if the cavity would be able to keep resonance if a powerful magnetic field was near by, and am curious what would happen. -
#3989 by dustinthewind on 21 Jul, 2016 04:16
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Wondering if this could be important. Quote from paper mentioned above:
"Recent theoretical and experimental work done in the field of Cavity Quantum
Electrodynamics suggests that the orbital electron transition time for excited atoms can be
affected by the state of the virtual particles of the quantum vacuum immediately
surrounding the excited atom in a cavity, where the size of the cavity modifies the
spectrum of the virtual particles."
"What is unique about EMQG theory is that gravitation involves both the photon and graviton exchange particles operating at the same time, where now the photon plays a very important role in gravity! In fact, the photon exchange process dominates over the pure gravitational interaction, and is in the most part, responsible for the principle of equivalence of inertial and gravitational mass." -
#3990 by RERT on 21 Jul, 2016 07:42
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#3991 by RERT on 21 Jul, 2016 08:20
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Actually the news item actually says Cannae is deploying a 6U cubesat at an orbital height of less than 150 miles for at least 6 months. Obviously this currently just a press release.
Best I can gather from the inter-web, a satellite that low would have an un-powered lifetime of the order of a few days. Given I'm speaking with NASA, please could someone expert comment?
Is it feasible for a 6U cubesat to fly below 150 miles for more than 6 months with existing thruster technology?
Planning a mission which would be otherwise impossible would seem a good way to validate a propellant-less thruster. -
#3992 by RERT on 21 Jul, 2016 09:48
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Continuing to while away my morning, drag Force appears to be
F=0.5ρvČAC
Where ρ is atmospheric density, around 10^-10 kg/m^3 at that altitude
v is orbital velocity, around 7,500 m/s
A is cross sectional area, say 10^-2 to 4*10^-2 m^2 for a 6U cubesat
C is co-efficient of drag, say 1-2
In round numbers I make this F = 30-230 μN. Hopefully I haven't made a mistake. Six months is about 16*10^6 seconds.
I doubt the mission is otherwise impossible, but they will certainly prove force generation in as far as they convince people there is no other thruster on-board.
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#3993 by Monomorphic on 21 Jul, 2016 13:10
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http://cannae.com/cannae-is-developing-a-cubesat-thruster/
I wonder why Cannae feels the need to spin off another company, Theseus Space Inc, to deploy cubesats. When SpaceX decided to get into building satellites, they just opened another office. -
#3994 by rfmwguy on 21 Jul, 2016 14:06
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Depends on the nature of the spin-off. If its expansion by a well-healed company, its just another division. If its an expansion of ownership, then a new entity is formed with a new investor(s). My humble guess is this is a new investor/new company type of thing.http://cannae.com/cannae-is-developing-a-cubesat-thruster/
I wonder why Cannae feels the need to spin off another company, Theseus Space Inc, to deploy cubesats. When SpaceX decided to get into building satellites, they just opened another office. -
#3995 by rfmwguy on 21 Jul, 2016 14:43
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(Slightly) Off Topic Alert: Perhaps a phase-change in the way research is conducted...prelim release of data for commentary and feedback via the interwebs. Sound familiar?
'X' shape in Milky Way confirmed via Twitter
(snip)
"I released the results in the hope that they would be useful for other scientific studies," said Lang, a research associate for the Dunlap Institute for Astronomy & Astrophysics at the University of Toronto, who also built an interactive site to help people explore the maps.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/health/milky-way-x-shape-reveal/index.html -
#3996 by VAXHeadroom on 21 Jul, 2016 16:30
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Given I'm speaking with NASA, please could someone expert comment?
Just to be clear: This website is NOT associated with the US Government National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), it is an independent website (despite the slightly misleading title and logo). You will not get an official NASA response here.
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#3997 by FattyLumpkin on 21 Jul, 2016 17:15
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I suspect this is what Guido was speaking of this when he told me "Cannae will be making an announcement in the next 4-6 weeks regarding a new project to demonstrate our tech......"
I find it interesting that they (Cannae) removed this image from their page....although only one side could be studied, it appears as though they have a new/different geometry (at least for their superconducting). If Theseus doesn't hold their cards too close to their chest, perhaps we'll get the proof we've been waiting for. I'll wait for that day
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#3998 by tchernik on 21 Jul, 2016 17:19
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http://cannae.com/cannae-is-developing-a-cubesat-thruster/
I wonder why Cannae feels the need to spin off another company, Theseus Space Inc, to deploy cubesats. When SpaceX decided to get into building satellites, they just opened another office.
My guess is that Cannae LLC is in a much weaker financial position than SpaceX was when making a new branch.
They probably did this for taxation purposes. If they've got an investor/partner they could also get the request from them to create a new tax paying entity. In that case all expenses/gains/losses are clearly cut from other Cannae's commercial endeavors. Also the investing partner can own a fair share of the business and even decide to buy Cannae's part if such a thing befits them.
Of course, the new company can also go belly-up if the tests fail and the partner severs any ties with it, but as others have said before: this kind of risky new technology really needs to be launched to space in order to show any believable results. -
#3999 by FattyLumpkin on 21 Jul, 2016 17:47
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In speculation, Cannae is either selling off their equipment to remain afloat, or because they wish to "spin-off" as their experimental work is completed for the time being...their tech mature enough to go "full up". Who knows, one or the other or something else? I concur with you that they will be facing a make or break point if/when they go with the cubesat (assuming) they disclose enough of the project to prove the point, or are able to get more money from hopeful investors. Cannae station keeping drive with gimbal system attached. There has to be a relatively significant amount of money ($545,000) available to get a 6U CS @ 12 kilos into LEO. Theseus Space Inc. is yet to appear using a search engine!
Where taxes are concerned, I was able to write off 100% of all of my R&D cost's when developing my LMFPJ-40 engine, I'd say they don't pay a dime in taxes. Do R&D until the money is gone and then belly up? Grasping straws! Hmmmm.
