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#3920 by X_RaY on 17 Jul, 2016 07:34
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Build Update: New wedge-geometry emdrive completed. It is the culmination of countless hours of work and dozens of simulations. This emdrive resonates at TE310 (what looks like TE013 in the frustum geometry) at 2.45Ghz. It also incorporates a small microwave waveguide.
Your wedge frustum resonator looks very nice!
Tomorrow I will mount the new emdrive to the torsional pendulum and begin the balancing/calibration process.
Great clean construction!
Gasket tuning:
I guess you made the whole thing a little bit shorter to be able to tune it in both directions?
You will need thicker spacers at the small end as for the bigger base for an equal frequency shift (the big base is more sensitive to length variation regarding the center frequency of the eigenmodes).
Not sure about the mode notation you are using:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1511719#msg1511719
Is it really TE310?
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#3921 by tleach on 17 Jul, 2016 08:26
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If the attenuation and relative refractive index at the small end is larger than vacuum, it will enhance the photon rocket's performance.
So, I guess the question is, can we actually change the relative refractive index at the small end of the frustum?
I just did a little Googling and convinced myself that the refractive index of the quantum vacuum can indeed be changed through the application of strong EM fields. I also just convinced myself that the large endplate is necessary in order to set up the requisite standing waves / mode shapes needed to concentrate the EM fields and create a large enough asymmetry within the resonating cavity.
Here's my thought process in a nutshell... The only leap we have to make is that spacetime is actually a matter/antimatter superfluid.
If spacetime is actually matter/antimatter superfluid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_vacuum_theory), then EM waves are that superfluid’s second sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_sound) and the speed of light in the spacetime superfluid can be be thought of as the transmission speed of this second sound. The EM waves are effectively the wave-like transmission of heat (energy) propagating through the superfluid. In high enough concentrations/field strengths, this second sound delivers enough energy into the spacetime superfluid to raise it’s local temperature to near its Lambda point (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_point). As the spacetime superfluid nears its Lamda point, the specific heat capacity rises (allowing even more energy to be pumped into the superfluid in a near exponential growth curve of the medium’s specific heat capacity) AND the speed of the second sound through the superfluid slows.
As the second sound in the spacetime superfluid is, to our perception, the speed of light in a vacuum, and since the speed of the second sound decreases near the superfluid's lambda point, what we perceive is the photons in the strong EM field inside the frustum slowing down. This effectively results in an increase in the the refractive index of the vacuum at the point of the highest concentration of photons at the small end of a properly tuned frustum, effectively mimicking the effect that a gravitational field would have, to an outside observer, on those photons.
Everything (all of the normal matter and energy) is self contained within the frustum EXCEPT for the superfluid (spacetime quantum vacuum) itself. Since the frustum is interacting directly with, and altering the properties of, this all pervasive superfluid, the frustum ceases to be definable as a closed system. In effect, it is generating a small asymmetrical gravitational gradient over it's length.
Yep, it's a warp drive. -
#3922 by Monomorphic on 17 Jul, 2016 09:14
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Not sure about the mode notation you are using:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1511719#msg1511719
Is it really TE310?
You're right X-Ray. It was late and I remembered it incorrectly based on our conversations in the past. I'll edit my post to reflect that. Thanks! -
#3923 by rfmwguy on 17 Jul, 2016 14:23
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First 1701A Internal Cavity inspection after weeks of testing:
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#3924 by Monomorphic on 17 Jul, 2016 15:02
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Vector network analysis of the new wedge emdrive complete. Center frequency for resonance is 2.458208435Ghz. Measured Q-factor is 5,347 using -3dB method. This is 6.8 times better than the smaller TE311 emdrive! I am very happy with center frequency and see no need to tune.
The Galanz magnetron starts out around 2.465Ghz and moves towards 2.445Ghz as it heats.
I've also included a picture of the two emdrives next to each other for size comparison.
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#3925 by SeeShells on 17 Jul, 2016 20:19
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Vector network analysis of the new wedge emdrive complete. Center frequency for resonance is 2.458208435Ghz. Measured Q-factor is 5,347 using -3dB method. This is 6.8 times better than the smaller TE311 emdrive! I am very happy with center frequency and see no need to tune.
Looks like you used the magnetron launcher cavity from the microwave. Good work, I really like it. The Galanz magnetron starts out around 2.465Ghz and moves towards 2.445Ghz as it heats.
I've also included a picture of the two emdrives next to each other for size comparison.
Shell -
#3926 by X_RaY on 17 Jul, 2016 20:44
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Even better the coupler direction seems is a good choice, the field vectors of the coupler at the penetration point fits the field direction of the focussed eigenmode inside the wedge frustum. Really good work.Vector network analysis of the new wedge emdrive complete. Center frequency for resonance is 2.458208435Ghz. Measured Q-factor is 5,347 using -3dB method. This is 6.8 times better than the smaller TE311 emdrive! I am very happy with center frequency and see no need to tune.
Looks like you used the magnetron launcher cavity from the microwave. Good work, I really like it. The Galanz magnetron starts out around 2.465Ghz and moves towards 2.445Ghz as it heats.
I've also included a picture of the two emdrives next to each other for size comparison.
Shell -
#3927 by dustinthewind on 17 Jul, 2016 20:49
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If the attenuation and relative refractive index at the small end is larger than vacuum, it will enhance the photon rocket's performance.
So, I guess the question is, can we actually change the relative refractive index at the small end of the frustum?
I just did a little Googling and convinced myself that the refractive index of the quantum vacuum can indeed be changed through the application of strong EM fields. I also just convinced myself that the large endplate is necessary in order to set up the requisite standing waves / mode shapes needed to concentrate the EM fields and create a large enough asymmetry within the resonating cavity.
Here's my thought process in a nutshell... The only leap we have to make is that spacetime is actually a matter/antimatter superfluid.
If spacetime is actually matter/antimatter superfluid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_vacuum_theory), then EM waves are that superfluid’s second sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_sound) and the speed of light in the spacetime superfluid can be be thought of as the transmission speed of this second sound. The EM waves are effectively the wave-like transmission of heat (energy) propagating through the superfluid. In high enough concentrations/field strengths, this second sound delivers enough energy into the spacetime superfluid to raise it’s local temperature to near its Lambda point (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_point). As the spacetime superfluid nears its Lamda point, the specific heat capacity rises (allowing even more energy to be pumped into the superfluid in a near exponential growth curve of the medium’s specific heat capacity) AND the speed of the second sound through the superfluid slows.
As the second sound in the spacetime superfluid is, to our perception, the speed of light in a vacuum, and since the speed of the second sound decreases near the superfluid's lambda point, what we perceive is the photons in the strong EM field inside the frustum slowing down. This effectively results in an increase in the the refractive index of the vacuum at the point of the highest concentration of photons at the small end of a properly tuned frustum, effectively mimicking the effect that a gravitational field would have, to an outside observer, on those photons.
Everything (all of the normal matter and energy) is self contained within the frustum EXCEPT for the superfluid (spacetime quantum vacuum) itself. Since the frustum is interacting directly with, and altering the properties of, this all pervasive superfluid, the frustum ceases to be definable as a closed system. In effect, it is generating a small asymmetrical gravitational gradient over it's length.
Yep, it's a warp drive.
I like the way you phrase this. This is along the lines of what I was thinking in different terms. What I think is happening is in this paper but with the space time fluid/polarizable vacuum (PV) is that the front end of the cavity is the reflector experiencing F_2 in figure 2. Inside the high index medium the light gains its change in mass and imparts more energy to the reflector/front of cavity. The space time fluid/PV being the dielectric may experience a back reaction as F_1 in figure 2.
Normally light would regain its energy on a bounce between the front and back walls but with the mass change in light and its push on the space time/PV ends up giving momentum to the cavity and vacuum while losing energy. This almost makes it an open photon recycling thruster but in a close cavity. This is if the concept actually works.
The paper is "Photon mass drag and the momentum of light in a medium" by Mikko Partanen,1 Teppo H¨ayrynen,1,2 Jani Oksanen,1 and Jukka Tulkki1 link: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=12263767291116468273&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48
The image should say the light becomes heavier at a faster rate than the velocity slows down. Acording to the equations of the Polarizable Vacuum using K from: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=11891316723593604093&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48
If in some of the images the wavelength looks like it is doubled then c(K)=c/K and w(K)=w0/sqrt(K) then lambda=w(K)/c(K)=w0*sqrt(K)/c=2*w0/c suggest K is effectively K=4 for the particular frequency. If m(K)=m0*K^(3/2) then m(K)=8*m0. If I am not making some horrible mistake there. I am not sure if I should be taking into account contraction of space in the cavity or not.
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#3928 by rfmwguy on 17 Jul, 2016 21:35
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First VNA sweep since May 2016 with better antenna system:
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#3929 by tleach on 18 Jul, 2016 00:03
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This is along the lines of what I was thinking in different terms. What I think is happening is in this paper but with the space time fluid/polarizable vacuum (PV) is that the front end of the cavity is the reflector experiencing F_2 in figure 2. Inside the high index medium the light gains its change in mass and imparts more energy to the reflector/front of cavity. The space time fluid/PV being the dielectric may experience a back reaction as F_1 in figure 2.
Normally light would regain its energy on a bounce between the front and back walls but with the mass change in light and its push on the space time/PV ends up giving momentum to the cavity and vacuum while losing energy. This almost makes it an open photon recycling thruster but in a close cavity. This is if the concept actually works.
The paper is "Photon mass drag and the momentum of light in a medium" by Mikko Partanen,1 Teppo H¨ayrynen,1,2 Jani Oksanen,1 and Jukka Tulkki1 link: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=12263767291116468273&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48
The image should say the light becomes heavier at a faster rate than the velocity slows down. Acording to the equations of the Polarizable Vacuum using K from: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=11891316723593604093&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48
I feel like the heavy photon bounces concentrated on one end of the frustum won't impart an asymmetrical force because, as they gain mass in the higher refractive index zone, they will also slow down. Won't this conserve the total momentum of each photon? Why does "the light become heavier at a faster rate than the velocity slows down"? Unfortunately, I don't have the math to follow your argument :-(
Either way, I'm just really starting to think that the idea of momentum transfer via photon bounce is a proverbial red herring.
The leap that Warptech made way back when was that this region of spacetime actually mimics a gravity well. Why? Because it actually IS a gravity well. It is a gravity well being produced by the density and energy of the fields and photons (through their interaction with the spacetime superfluid) rather than being produced by ordinary matter.
This type of spacetime superfluid / PV Quantum Vacuum theory of operation for the EM Drive should predict that some percentage of the microwave energy being pumped into the frustum is going to "heat" the spacetime superfluid closer to its lambda point. This energy will stop being radiated from the system as real heat and will instead manifest in our reality as the aforementioned gravity well.
Maybe rather than keep trying to measure the force/thrust produced directly, the whole time fighting against air currents and wire heating and magnetic fields, we should just shove the whole rig into a highly accurate calorimeter and see if any heat goes missing?
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#3930 by WarpTech on 18 Jul, 2016 01:05
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I feel like the heavy photon bounces concentrated on one end of the frustum won't impart an asymmetrical force because, as they gain mass in the higher refractive index zone, they will also slow down. Won't this conserve the total momentum of each photon? Why does "the light become heavier at a faster rate than the velocity slows down"? Unfortunately, I don't have the math to follow your argument :-(
Either way, I'm just really starting to think that the idea of momentum transfer via photon bounce is a proverbial red herring.
The leap that Warptech made way back when was that this region of spacetime actually mimics a gravity well. Why? Because it actually IS a gravity well. It is a gravity well being produced by the density and energy of the fields and photons (through their interaction with the spacetime superfluid) rather than being produced by ordinary matter.
This type of spacetime superfluid / PV Quantum Vacuum theory of operation for the EM Drive should predict that some percentage of the microwave energy being pumped into the frustum is going to "heat" the spacetime superfluid closer to its lambda point. This energy will stop being radiated from the system as real heat and will instead manifest in our reality as the aforementioned gravity well.
Maybe rather than keep trying to measure the force/thrust produced directly, the whole time fighting against air currents and wire heating and magnetic fields, we should just shove the whole rig into a highly accurate calorimeter and see if any heat goes missing?
In PV, as light slows down its wavelength gets shorter, therefore its momentum increases, but its frequency and energy decrease. The product of E*p is conserved. This is because while E=m*c2, in PV, neither m nor c is constant, so you can still conserve energy*momentum while increasing in mass, if the speed of light is slowing down. What he means is that, m increases as K3/2, where c decreases as 1/K. m increases faster than c decreases.
It's already been shown here, probably back in thread 3 or 4, that the amount of energy density is not nearly enough to have any actual effect on space-time or the vacuum, and the electric fields generated are not high enough to create electron-positron pair creation, or dielectric breakdown of the vacuum as I like to think of it.
I suggest you both look at what is happening within the copper itself, instead of the vacuum. Per my new paper, gravity is a dissipative effect acting on oscillations within matter.
By analogy only, the MW field inside the frustum is the source of energy exciting the metal, in the same way the electromagnetic ZPF excites harmonic oscillations at the sub-atomic scale. Both the electrons and the lattice ions vibrate or oscillate, driven by the MWs. In this way, energy is stored as resonance in the metal, in the skin effect and in the lattice vibrations. Ask yourself, which direction can the metal move, that will lower the amount of stored energy in the metal itself? The frustum will only move to seek an equilibrium point and it will "walk" in that direction until equilibrium is reached.
One experiment that I would be interested to see from the DIYer's with a spectrum analyzer. If you are monitoring the resonant frequency, and you push the frustum forward (small end leading), does the frequency shift up or down? Then do the same in the opposite direction. Characterize how the resonant frequency changes with accelerations, or it doesn't change at all, or it is dissipated completely.
I vaguely recall that one of my old hypotheses that agreed with @notsosureofit's model was the frequency shift. If the ability to view the resonant frequency is now available, let's see how it is affected by light hand-push accelerations. I would be curious to see this result.
Todd
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#3931 by rfmwguy on 18 Jul, 2016 03:16
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Here's the pic I meant to post about the beefed up mag
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#3932 by meberbs on 18 Jul, 2016 03:54
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In PV, as light slows down its wavelength gets shorter, therefore its momentum increases, but its frequency and energy decrease. The product of E*p is conserved. This is because while E=m*c2, in PV, neither m nor c is constant, so you can still conserve energy*momentum while increasing in mass, if the speed of light is slowing down. What he means is that, m increases as K3/2, where c decreases as 1/K. m increases faster than c decreases.
I know you are talking about an alternate theory, and I haven't followed all of the details, but there is a flaw in your statement there. the equation is not E=m*c2 from special relativity (which any new theory must be consistent with in the appropriate limit) E2=(m0*c2)2 + (p*c)2
...
m0 is the rest mass which is 0 for photons, the relativistic mass comes from the momentum term. The c term is the universal constant c not the speed of light in the medium (which I suggest should be referred to as v to minimize confusion).
There are a few things you could be modifying here:
-speed of light c varies with location
-photons not massless (m0 no longer 0 under some/all conditions)
-something else.
I am having a hard time following what your specific modification is, and can't quite come up with something consistent. Part of my confusion is that both energy of a photon can be written as a function of its wavelength, frequency, or momentum (just 1 independent variable). Similarly momentum can be written as a function of energy, frequency or wavelength. Your statements break some of these relationships, but I am not clear on which ones you are choosing to break and why. -
#3933 by FattyLumpkin on 18 Jul, 2016 04:01
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Dave, that is sweeeeet! What exactly is your antenna set-up? Can you tune it + how much juice are you pumping in? Perhaps X_Ray or Jamie can do some sweeps to see what other modes might be stimulated: TM212, TE012 or other. Attached images of ONE geometry, three modes, three frequencies...... TE012 is with dielectric disk , FL sims provided by X_RAY!
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#3934 by rfmwguy on 18 Jul, 2016 04:04
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First 1701A Internal Cavity inspection after weeks of testing:
Overlaying B&W Thermal of small endplate (thanks to Monomorphic) with pic I took today of internal cavity showing arcs. Horizontally flipped internal image so it would match with B&W thermal underneath.
Good correlation between arc spots and heating.
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#3935 by FattyLumpkin on 18 Jul, 2016 04:42
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Dave, just to be clear, our designs are not supposed to arc, yes? What caused the arcing in your build?
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#3936 by WarpTech on 18 Jul, 2016 05:29
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In PV, as light slows down its wavelength gets shorter, therefore its momentum increases, but its frequency and energy decrease. The product of E*p is conserved. This is because while E=m*c2, in PV, neither m nor c is constant, so you can still conserve energy*momentum while increasing in mass, if the speed of light is slowing down. What he means is that, m increases as K3/2, where c decreases as 1/K. m increases faster than c decreases.
I know you are talking about an alternate theory, and I haven't followed all of the details, but there is a flaw in your statement there. the equation is not E=m*c2 from special relativity (which any new theory must be consistent with in the appropriate limit) E2=(m0*c2)2 + (p*c)2
...
m0 is the rest mass which is 0 for photons, the relativistic mass comes from the momentum term. The c term is the universal constant c not the speed of light in the medium (which I suggest should be referred to as v to minimize confusion).
There are a few things you could be modifying here:
-speed of light c varies with location
-photons not massless (m0 no longer 0 under some/all conditions)
-something else.
I am having a hard time following what your specific modification is, and can't quite come up with something consistent. Part of my confusion is that both energy of a photon can be written as a function of its wavelength, frequency, or momentum (just 1 independent variable). Similarly momentum can be written as a function of energy, frequency or wavelength. Your statements break some of these relationships, but I am not clear on which ones you are choosing to break and why.
I apologize, I was speaking off the cuff with the E=mc^2 analogy. If you want to understand the relationships correctly, please read the document linked in the earlier post by dustinthewind, http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1560743#msg1560743
In a waveguide, photons acquire an effective mass. In PV, the equation you wrote is modified by the refractive index K as observed by a distant observer, as follows;
E2=((m0*c2)2 )/K + ((p*c)2)/K
where each component is a variable wrt K, including the mass.
m0*K3/2
c/K
p*sqrt(K)
Substitute these values into your equation and you will get the equation above. Conservation of energy and momentum in General Relativity as well as the PV Model is not straight forward. In the frame of the distant observer, light can lose energy to the gravitational field while gaining momentum. This does not happen in Special Relativity because there is no gravitational field except when there is acceleration.
In PV however, K is the refractive index observed by a distant observer in flat space-time. It is not a local measure like it is inside a waveguide. I have been reminded that a frustum is not a waveguide, the resonant mode is a standing wave not a traveling wave. In this situation, the PV Model is difficult to apply.
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#3937 by Chrochne on 18 Jul, 2016 11:02
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"Organisms might be quantum machines"
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160715-organisms-might-be-quantum-machines
A lot of talk about quantum space and photons here lately. Maybe that article can help give some ideas here too. -
#3938 by rfmwguy on 18 Jul, 2016 13:49
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Dave, just to be clear, our designs are not supposed to arc, yes? What caused the arcing in your build?
Designs should not arc. Imperfections in the copper, silver solder, seams, gaps, etc can cause it. I never heard these arcs forming, especially with the latest mag I have. I tend to think these occurred weeks ago with a previous mag. Spinning copper which would produce no seam on the small diameter would be best...just too expensive to contract this out.
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#3939 by tleach on 18 Jul, 2016 14:20
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It's already been shown here, probably back in thread 3 or 4, that the amount of energy density is not nearly enough to have any actual effect on space-time or the vacuum, and the electric fields generated are not high enough to create electron-positron pair creation, or dielectric breakdown of the vacuum as I like to think of it.
I suggest you both look at what is happening within the copper itself, instead of the vacuum. Per my new paper, gravity is a dissipative effect acting on oscillations within matter.
By analogy only, the MW field inside the frustum is the source of energy exciting the metal, in the same way the electromagnetic ZPF excites harmonic oscillations at the sub-atomic scale. Both the electrons and the lattice ions vibrate or oscillate, driven by the MWs. In this way, energy is stored as resonance in the metal, in the skin effect and in the lattice vibrations. Ask yourself, which direction can the metal move, that will lower the amount of stored energy in the metal itself? The frustum will only move to seek an equilibrium point and it will "walk" in that direction until equilibrium is reached.
One experiment that I would be interested to see from the DIYer's with a spectrum analyzer. If you are monitoring the resonant frequency, and you push the frustum forward (small end leading), does the frequency shift up or down? Then do the same in the opposite direction. Characterize how the resonant frequency changes with accelerations, or it doesn't change at all, or it is dissipated completely.
I vaguely recall that one of my old hypotheses that agreed with @notsosureofit's model was the frequency shift. If the ability to view the resonant frequency is now available, let's see how it is affected by light hand-push accelerations. I would be curious to see this result.
Todd
Lol! I almost thought I was onto something there
Thanks for setting me straight!
I actually tried to look at some math this morning (not my strong suit), and you are indeed correct. There's nowhere near enough energy contained in these frustums to effect the types of changes I was talking about. Even at full, 100% conversion of MW Energy into gravitational distortion, a 1000 Wh MW source running for 1 second could produce a maximum equivalent of about 11picograms of gravitational distortion.
That's at 1000Wh of energy at 100% conversion and a modern 1000 Wh magnetron usually only operates at around 60% - 70% efficiency, so right off the top we'd be down to 7.15picograms max gravitational distortion. Obviously not all of the MW in the cavity will be converted into gravitational distortion. For the sake of argument, lets say 25% does. Now we're down too 1.788 picograms distortion over a 1 second run.
We need some new physics, but not my new physics
The Galanz magnetron starts out around 2.465Ghz and moves towards 2.445Ghz as it heats.